ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[takeitfromme412]

Outside? Away from home? I think any 2-year-old would be a handful under those circumstances. Not fair to him or to the g-grandfather, imo.

when my daughter was 2 1/2 she and I did a mother daughter just us camping/tenting trip in the white mountains in NH. a 2 or 3 yr old is not necessarily a handful on an outdoor trip away from home

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Am I the only one that finds it odd the way this child was clothed? It was 81 degrees in that area that day and he was wearing a coat, long pants and boots. I am not sure that relates at all to the fact that he is missing, but it seems weird to me.

I wondered about that, too. I asked about temps in the area, because in the video both parents have hoodies/jackets. I assumed it was cooler due to the elevation.

 

[Mountain]

The parents have been cleared by LE. We are not to sleuth the parents. Good, I agree as I found no alarm bells going off with them. Has LE said the Grandpa and friend are "solid"? I ask because they seem to be the last people to have seen Deorr whether they know this or not. There has been little to no talk by LE as to these two people. This bothers me. Is this normal not to discuss the very last people to see a missing person alive? Or maybe grandads friend was off fishing at the time, but we don't know because no one is telling us about the last on wn moments of little Deorrs whereabouts. THIS BOTHERS ME. Sure maybe we don't need to know, but we are asked to consider things like an abduction.
In the end I still believe he got in the creek. But this case makes me nuts in its vagueness.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

The silence about the GGP friend still bothers me. Do we even know if he or she was at the camp when the child became missing?

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

I too had wondered if it was at all possible for a large eagle to swoop down and snatch a toddler but after I read this article it lead me to believe it would not be possible, that no eagle could pick up and then continue to fly holding onto a 28 lb child (which is the reported weight of Deorr, from what I'd read).

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=343

Golden eagle didn't snatch that kid. It's video generated with a help of a computer for some sort of class project.

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

From what I had read, the grandfather on the camping trip was actually the Mom's grandfather (little Deorr's great-grandfather):

"The elder Kunz says the boy's parents were setting up camp and assumed Mitchell's grandfather, who was also on the trip, was watching the boy. The grandfather assumed the boy's parents were watching him, says Kunz. "

http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks

Once again, there seems to be confusion about the various grandfathers/great grandfathers. The grandpa you are quoting above is DK Jr's grandpa on his father's side, who was not on the camping trip. The "grandpa" on the camping trip is actually DK Jr's GREAT grandpa, on his mother's side.

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

I read Peter Hyatt's Statement Analysis blog. Very interesting, indeed.

A few things that continue to niggle at my brain.

1. If the parents went on and on about how little Deorr NEVER goes anywhere without his blanket (and cup, etc), then why was that blanket reportedly found in their truck? That's kind of a huge contradiction, no? Is it possible that maybe the family arrived at the campground, little Deorr fell asleep in the truck on the drive (Dad had stated in interview that his nap time was 2pm), there with his blanket......and instead of waking him up they just let him sleep there in the truck?

2. If Dad is so sure that he's been abducted then I'm confused about the store clerk (the store 40 minutes away) who said she had seen a man and filthy little bawling blonde boy @ 6pm buying candy. This was discussed in the long interview w/ parents and little D's Dad said the store clerk made a mistake. I think what he meant was that he and Deorr had been at the store earlier in the day, 1pm was it?......but not at 6pm so she was mistaken.............but..........if Dad was leaning toward little D having been abducted, why would it be a mistake on the clerk's part to say she saw a man/little boy similar to little D's description? Couldn't it have potentially been an abductor at the store with the little boy at 6pm?

3. In the interview, little D's Dad states "we weren't more than fifty" and his wife cuts him off and says "10 minutes".......then he cuts her off and says "fifty yard and 10 minutes." Made me wonder if he'd intended to say 50 minutes before wife cut him off?

4. In long interview Dad says little D was going to "be good with Grandpa around the campfire".........but if that would have been sometime between 2pm and 2:30pm or so, would it be usual for someone at this time of year to have a campfire going in the early afternoon? Most people don't waste firewood when camping, as they've only brought a certain amount with them and it has to last them the entire time they're gone........and you can really go through a lot of it with a fire going throughout the entire evening. And it doesn't sound like the kind of campground where one can buy firewood (from what I've read it sounds like a very basic no-service campground......with nothing more than a firepit and picnic table at each site...and not even a campground where one has to register or pay for the campsite).

4. Very perplexed by Dad's mention of "Snake River" twice during the interview, particularly when he was talking about Search and Rescue. Seems he had Snake River on his mind. Why?

 

[Eloise]

Yes I'm thinking lots of things now, due to that blog. Looking forward to the second part of the analysis.

 

[Hoosier952]

I think kids can cover a good distance if they are on a mission. There's a big difference between a toddler trying to keep up with parents and a toddler chasing after a bug. One will whine and be too tired to walk, one will be so consumed with the bug, they won't realize just how tired they might be or they aren't tired at all because they are having fun. I think people forget just how much walking/running a toddler does in a day. If he'd been riding around in the truck for a fair amount of time before taking off walking, he likely wouldn't have been worn out at all. I certainly don't think it would take 5-6 hours for him to clear less than a 1/2 mile. Hour tops if he wasn't completely distracted. I also think it's highly likely he was missing more than the 4-10 minutes that's been reported. I doubt anyone was checking watches. I also know how quickly one can lose track of time.

Another issue with hilly and woodsy terrain is how sound carries. He could have heard his parents yelling and headed in the direction he thought the sound was coming from. He could have been heading in the opposite direction for a long time still able to hear them call. Chances are with a loud creek, any amount of wind, and people yelling, no one would ever hear a young child crying in the distance. He might have fallen asleep and slept through people calling for him. He might not have ever made a peep.

I'm about 49.5/50/.5 on him being in the water vs laying somewhere in the woods vs predator of the animal or human variety.

 

[skinnycat]

I think that lil Deorr wandered off, I camped with my kids often when they were young, they were busy, always on the go, wandering from here to there, everything is new to them. I think there was no communication as to whom was going to be watching Deorr, that's the thing I can't get past, as a mom I would never have walked away from my 2 year old with out insuring that someone else was going to be keeping an eye on them, especially in such a remote area.

 

[blefuscu]

I read Peter Hyatt's Statement Analysis blog. Very interesting, indeed.

A few things that continue to niggle at my brain.

1. If the parents went on and on about how little Deorr NEVER goes anywhere without his blanket (and cup, etc), then why was that blanket reportedly found in their truck? That's kind of a huge contradiction, no? Is it possible that maybe the family arrived at the campground, little Deorr fell asleep in the truck on the drive (Dad had stated in interview that his nap time was 2pm), there with his blanket......and instead of waking him up they just let him sleep there in the truck?

2. If Dad is so sure that he's been abducted then I'm confused about the store clerk (the store 40 minutes away) who said she had seen a man and filthy little bawling blonde boy @ 6pm buying candy. This was discussed in the long interview w/ parents and little D's Dad said the store clerk made a mistake. I think what he meant was that he and Deorr had been at the store earlier in the day, 1pm was it?......but not at 6pm so she was mistaken.............but..........if Dad was leaning toward little D having been abducted, why would it be a mistake on the clerk's part to say she saw a man/little boy similar to little D's description? Couldn't it have potentially been an abductor at the store with the little boy at 6pm?

3. In the interview, little D's Dad states "we weren't more than fifty" and his wife cuts him off and says "10 minutes".......then he cuts her off and says "fifty yard and 10 minutes." Made me wonder if he'd intended to say 50 minutes before wife cut him off?

4. In long interview Dad says little D was going to "be good with Grandpa around the campfire".........but if that would have been sometime between 2pm and 2:30pm or so, would it be usual for someone at this time of year to have a campfire going in the early afternoon? Most people don't waste firewood when camping, as they've only brought a certain amount with them and it has to last them the entire time they're gone........and you can really go through a lot of it with a fire going throughout the entire evening. And it doesn't sound like the kind of campground where one can buy firewood (from what I've read it sounds like a very basic no-service campground......with nothing more than a firepit and picnic table at each site...and not even a campground where one has to register or pay for the campsite).

4. Very perplexed by Dad's mention of "Snake River" twice during the interview, particularly when he was talking about Search and Rescue. Seems he had Snake River on his mind. Why?

The parents are not suspects according to the police. Until they are named POI or suspects then they are victims and off limits.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I read Peter Hyatt's Statement Analysis blog. Very interesting, indeed.

A few things that continue to niggle at my brain.

1. If the parents went on and on about how little Deorr NEVER goes anywhere without his blanket (and cup, etc), then why was that blanket reportedly found in their truck? That's kind of a huge contradiction, no? Is it possible that maybe the family arrived at the campground, little Deorr fell asleep in the truck on the drive (Dad had stated in interview that his nap time was 2pm), there with his blanket......and instead of waking him up they just let him sleep there in the truck?

2. If Dad is so sure that he's been abducted then I'm confused about the store clerk (the store 40 minutes away) who said she had seen a man and filthy little bawling blonde boy @ 6pm buying candy. This was discussed in the long interview w/ parents and little D's Dad said the store clerk made a mistake. I think what he meant was that he and Deorr had been at the store earlier in the day, 1pm was it?......but not at 6pm so she was mistaken.............but..........if Dad was leaning toward little D having been abducted, why would it be a mistake on the clerk's part to say she saw a man/little boy similar to little D's description? Couldn't it have potentially been an abductor at the store with the little boy at 6pm?

3. In the interview, little D's Dad states "we weren't more than fifty" and his wife cuts him off and says "10 minutes".......then he cuts her off and says "fifty yard and 10 minutes." Made me wonder if he'd intended to say 50 minutes before wife cut him off?

4. In long interview Dad says little D was going to "be good with Grandpa around the campfire".........but if that would have been sometime between 2pm and 2:30pm or so, would it be usual for someone at this time of year to have a campfire going in the early afternoon? Most people don't waste firewood when camping, as they've only brought a certain amount with them and it has to last them the entire time they're gone........and you can really go through a lot of it with a fire going throughout the entire evening. And it doesn't sound like the kind of campground where one can buy firewood (from what I've read it sounds like a very basic no-service campground......with nothing more than a firepit and picnic table at each site...and not even a campground where one has to register or pay for the campsite).

4. Very perplexed by Dad's mention of "Snake River" twice during the interview, particularly when he was talking about Search and Rescue. Seems he had Snake River on his mind. Why?

I have all the same questions!

 

[MzOpinion8d]

The parents are not suspects according to the police. Until they are named POI or suspects then they are victims and off limits.

I think the post is fine. The poster is not accusing the parents of anything, just questioning some of the info that's unclear, like many of us have. No blame was placed.

 

[Eloise]

I think the post is fine. The poster is not accusing the parents of anything, just questioning some of the info that's unclear, like many of us have. No blame was placed.

Yup! Definitely not getting the full story, and there are unanswered questions. That does not equate to blaming anyone.

 

[Eileen730]

Most grandparents are perfectly capable of putting a kid down for a nap anyway.

Most are but it's. Usually grandmother IMO
There are some wonderful men out there that are just as good at Taking care of the kids but most
Are not.aware of.all the thi gs that could or.could not happen.

The last.time I read here it was stated that the parents tbought the baby was with grandparent and the grandparent thought the baby was with the parent... so what is it????? Did the parents place this child in the grandparents arms and say I l l be back. I'm a little behind and try to catch up but this is soo sad.

 

[Eileen730]

Yup! Definitely not getting the full story, and there are unanswered questions. That does not equate to blaming anyone.

I agree.

 

[Vail]

The parents are not suspects according to the police. Until they are named POI or suspects then they are victims and off limits.

Jumping off your post blefuscu,

There is an important distinction between unbiased analysis, speculation and pointing fingers.

"I think a mountain lion ate him" is speculation, however likely it could be - there are zero facts to point towards that.

"What if the gpa's mysterious friend drowned him in the reservoir and then buried the body?" is not only speculation but is pointing fingers. We have evidence that suggests DeOrr could have been carried to the reservoir (dogs hitting on the reservoir and the campsite, but nothing in between, and the likelyhood DeOrr walked himself there being small or not fitting the timeline), so a better question is "DeOrr could have been carried, but by who? Who had the opportunity and was it with intent or not?"

Analysis of the evidence we have in the case, including statements, is part of working through the case, as long as it can be done logically and factually. It is important analysis of the parents statements and behavior be allowed here, because it would point out important inconsistencies with the facts being presented. But it needs to be discussed in a professional way. If that can't be done, I am not sure what the point of this thread is right now. 70+ threads of re-clarifying family relations and rehashing facts several members have listed out clearly or reiterated is not doing DeOrr any good at all.

DeOrr was not kidnapped, he was not eaten by a mountain lion, carried off by Sasquatch, abducted by aliens, or murdered in a creepy religious ritual (although that is more likely than the first 4). He has very likely met an accidental death caused by brief neglect, and it is sad and tragic and not necessarily on purpose or at the hand of a family member. However, it is irresponsible to rule out deception by those at the scene without a body unless both parents have taken a polygraph and passed it (which I doubt, since they haven't left the scene).

I do not believe the parents murdered DeOrr. But I do believe we have reason to doubt their story is 100% accurate. Think about this for a minute - you are a family out in the middle of nowhere and something happens to the 2yr old with you and it is your fault. You are devastated, scared, and don't know what to do. Obviously calling 911 is the first option, but then you start thinking about how you will explain what happened to the police, to your family. You are likely smart enough to know calling LE could mean being charged with manslaughter. My intent here is not to point the fingers at one or both parents or anyone else at the scene, but to point out a possibility that is just as real as any other being put forth. My hope is that regardless of how DeOrr got where he is now, that he is found, and the only way we will be any remote help in that endeavor is if we can respectfully discuss all possible outcomes that fit the facts we have without making it personal.

 

[ClaireNC]

Also, were they staying at Reservoir Creek or Hawley Creek campground?

They were staying at Timber Creek campground at Stone Reservoir. The one closest to Leadore. Here is the Forest Service link to the campground: http://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/scnf/recarea?recid=76098

There are two camping places within the campground - they were staying at the lower one. The upper campsites are 1/2 mile beyond the lower sites.

To confuse things there is another larger Timber Creek Campground further south near Howe and Arco, Idaho. That one is sometimes referred to as the "lower" Timber Creek. It has 12 sites and running water. The campground they were staying in is primitive with no water and a pit toilet.

FYI - There are also two Stone Reservoirs in Idaho. Again, little DeOrr went missing from the one near Leadore. The other, larger one is further south near the border with Utah.

 

[Hippononymous]

I think kids can cover a good distance if they are on a mission. There's a big difference between a toddler trying to keep up with parents and a toddler chasing after a bug. One will whine and be too tired to walk, one will be so consumed with the bug, they won't realize just how tired they might be or they aren't tired at all because they are having fun. I think people forget just how much walking/running a toddler does in a day. If he'd been riding around in the truck for a fair amount of time before taking off walking, he likely wouldn't have been worn out at all. I certainly don't think it would take 5-6 hours for him to clear less than a 1/2 mile. Hour tops if he wasn't completely distracted. I also think it's highly likely he was missing more than the 4-10 minutes that's been reported. I doubt anyone was checking watches. I also know how quickly one can lose track of time.

Another issue with hilly and woodsy terrain is how sound carries. He could have heard his parents yelling and headed in the direction he thought the sound was coming from. He could have been heading in the opposite direction for a long time still able to hear them call. Chances are with a loud creek, any amount of wind, and people yelling, no one would ever hear a young child crying in the distance. He might have fallen asleep and slept through people calling for him. He might not have ever made a peep.

I'm about 49.5/50/.5 on him being in the water vs laying somewhere in the woods vs predator of the animal or human variety.

BBM…
A few years ago my daughter was about Deorr's age, maybe a little older and she disappeared from our home. My husband was outside with her and our son, and I was inside. She had a habit of playing with the doorbell and was ringing it. I didn't answer it right away, maybe about a minute after she had rung it. I opened the door and didn't see her there so walked outside to find her. It soon became clear she had disappeared. We live in a fairly rural area and we could not figure out where she had gone. We yelled and searched and got the neighbor across the street to get on his bike and ride around. The kids next door started helping. After about 10 minutes I called 911 and about 5 police showed up. They immediately checked the pool next door, as that is where kids often gravitate to. Thankfully she wasn't there. They checked all inside the house. It wasn't until they started all walking across the lawn to the side of our house that we saw her little head pop up from behind a camp chair that she had been hiding in on our side porch. A chair that I had stood right next to while screaming her name!! She was hiding, playing a game, thinking she was funny, and I just didn't see her because she was so tiny and the back of the chair was high. It was a terrible experience and took me at least a full day to stop shaking. The whole episode probably was about 30 minutes but felt like hours.

My point is it truly just takes a MOMENT for kids to disappear. My husband was watching my daughter and she still managed to do it! And she was a runner for a while at that age. Scared us a number of times. It think it's very possible Deorr wandered, maybe even played hide and seek. He could have heard everyone yelling and just didn't "get it" that it was an emergency.

I also wanted to mention that after the incident where we had to call the police to help find our daughter, my neighbor, whose husband hopped on his bike to help search for her, told me that her husband had said that he was impressed with how well I kept my composure and how calm I was. I was like "What?!!!" I was in an absolute panic, it was about 100 degrees outside, I was sweating, sure I was making no sense, etc. But…I guess you just do what you have to do in those cases. After that, I definitely think differently about people I see who seem so calm and people mention that they wouldn't be that calm, that they'd be yelling for help finding their kid or whatever. I certainly didn't feel calm at all, but I guess I was able to hold it together more than I felt like I was. Not that anyone has said in this case that the parents seem too calm, but in other cases I know that has been said.

 

[ClaireNC]

Reading Vail's post above something just crossed my mind. It appears as if the family has two older children. There has been no mention of these other children in any of the news reports. The news has never said that these children were also camping. Has anyone ever said specifically that there were only 4 adults camping with little DeOrr?

Without accusing anyone and just purely speculation on my part, could the silence, lack of information and unease we are seeing in interviews be due to the fact that LE and the family are protecting these two older children? Maybe those children were the last to see DeOrr alive. Just throwing this out there as food for thought.

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

I never said or implied that they were suspects, I merely posted questions with regards to statements made by them (the parents) that perplex me....and I'm sure others, too.

The parents are not suspects according to the police. Until they are named POI or suspects then they are victims and off limits.