ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks and yes I have seen that interview. So we have no explicit explanation or timeline. Not that we have heard "Grandpa agreed to watch" or "DeOrr was left with Grandpa" because it scares me that Grandpa was surprised DeOrr was not with his parents. That is the point right there that something is missing (from what we know -- I am guessing LE has a detailed explanation of events leading up to the discovery of DeOrr missing).

It is highly likely that great-grandpa didn't remember he was supposed to be watching D. I'm sure LE has several versions of how that happened, since there were 4 adults there and they probably each remember it differently. (Which is normal, since people's memories are fallible. It's why witnesses to events are separated and told not to talk to anyone else until they're interviewed by LE.)
 
I agree that if he wandered off a good ways from the camp, the chance of a predator attack might be greater, but you still have to factor in all the initial noises that would have run them off in the first place.

Shortly after he vanished, you have the parents and grandad walking around screaming at the top of their lungs along the creek bed, the road, and the overgrown brushy areas. No animal in his right mind is gonna hang around with all of that going on.

After the searchers arrived, just about every animal over 5 pounds would have hightailed it for the hills, with the exception of some of the burrowing animals like skunks and coons. That was actually the intent of my post, get in there and find this kid before the bigger animals return to the scene. They WILL return, once it quietens down again.

Another phenomenon I haven't seen mentioned too much is echo's and sound distortion. Deorr may have gotten separated from his parents and could actually hear them calling for him, but due to the echo's created by the surrounding hills and outcroppings, it sounded to him like they were in a different area than they actually were. Unfortunately, as he continued to move in the direction of the sounds, he got further and further away.

Anybody that has ever camped around mountains and valleys knows that sound will bounce off of all kinds of things. It will sometimes make things seem much closer than they really are. Gunshots are a good example of something you will hear out in the forest that sounds as if it came just a few hundred yards away, when in reality, it may be some dude target shooting a 1/2 mile away from you. It sounds close, but it isn't. It's the sound distortion, echo's, and the differences in elevation that play tricks with you.

Most likely he would have been going cross-country on grass, leaves, and sticks, which eliminates footprints, or at least severely limits them. I think he may have headed up to a higher elevation, because to him, that's where it sounded like his parents calls were coming from.

I totally agree.

And you are definitely right about how sounds play all kinds of tricks in hills like that. Whenever I hear shots in the woods I can hardly ever tell at first which direction it came from. Its only after I hear the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. shots and I start to really try to focus on it that I can begin to try to pin point which direction.
 
Great map. Doesn't the creek also fork out downstream from the reservoir? I thought it also flowed right there where your red arrow is.

That snaky line of trees where the red arrow is indicates to me there is water flowing there.
 
Great map. Doesn't the creek also fork out downstream from the reservoir? I thought it also flowed right there where your red arrow is.

It's called Little Timber Creek Middle Fork... or something like that.
 
That snaky line of trees where the red arrow is indicates to me there is water flowing there.

I agree. The Middle Fork of Timber Creek goes right where the red arrow is.

Timber Creek North Fork and Middle Fork eventually join downstream into just plain Little Timber Creek. I think that then flows or becomes (big) Timber Creek and maybe even heads toward the Leadore area.
 
Re: the timeline. I just went back and listened to the interview. Dad said that they didn't leave the campground after 1 pm. Assuming the last time the left the campground was to go to the store in Leadore and we know it's about a 40 minute drive between the store and the campsite, that would put them leaving the store at around 12:20 pm. That's almost 6 hours before the store clerk reports seeing someone matching dad and baby Deorrs' as well as their truck at the store.

As I was mulling over this time discrepancy for the zillionth time, a new thought popped into my head: was the clerk who was working at 6 pm even the same clerk that was working around noon? Obviously we don't know and have no way of knowing and I don't know if having the answer would mean anything but I'm curious about it.
 
Excellent post. I have been thinking that while wild animals would be highly unlikely to enter camp and steal little DeOrr, its very likely that some time during his getting lost in the wild he stumbled upon a den, or was targeted by a wild animal.
It could have been an hour later or a day or more. Why is everyone fixated on something coming IN to the camp? I've seen little ones move faster than superman and parents will say he was gone in a flash. My own son used to disappear as soon as I blinked.

Having said this, the coyotes here in new York state have been recently coming right into yards to grab our dogs. And there was a hideous incident in Monticello New York a few years ago where a bear actually took a baby right out of a stroller who was napping outside her back door with mom right inside. Broad daylight. Scouts honor.

So I am getting a rash from jumping on and off this here fence. Still thinking creek.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

BBM Fencerash!!! Not sure if that's a new WS lingo term, but it perfectly sums up my thoughts too. hehe
 
BBM Fencerash!!! Not sure if that's a new WS lingo term, but it perfectly sums up my thoughts too. hehe
Lol. Terrible sad case, but you made me smile, which I needed. So thank you for this! [emoji4]

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
Re: the timeline. I just went back and listened to the interview. Dad said that they didn't leave the campground after 1 pm. Assuming the last time the left the campground was to go to the store in Leadore and we know it's about a 40 minute drive between the store and the campsite, that would put them leaving the store at around 12:20 pm. That's almost 6 hours before the store clerk reports seeing someone matching dad and baby Deorrs' as well as their truck at the store.

As I was mulling over this time discrepancy for the zillionth time, a new thought popped into my head: was the clerk who was working at 6 pm even the same clerk that was working around noon? Obviously we don't know and have no way of knowing and I don't know if having the answer would mean anything but I'm curious about it.

Yeah I have a hard time with the clerk's 6 p.m. sighting. If Deorr was kidnapped, I have a hard time believing the kidnapper would take Deorr to the closest point of civilization and bring a very noticeable Deorr into the store. If I were the kidnapper I would be trying to get as far away as possible, and keep my victim as hidden as possible, especially with a 5 hour lead over the parents and authorities.
 
I don't think everyone is fixated on someone coming IN to camp. I've tossed around scenarios exactly like you typed: Deorr wanders off in camp...maybe a hundred feet or so....maybe he falls down into the creek and is knocked unconscious. A cougar, hanging out in the trees above the creek watching for prey, siezes the opportunity for an easy meal and jumps down, grabs Deorr and is off to another tree. Or any number of variations. I don't think it would be unusual if there were mutiple natural elements that led to Deorr's disappearance.

This is along the lines of what I've been thinking too. I never once thought a cougar waltzed into camp, leaped over the trucks, stepped on GGP's foot, swatted GGP's friend, trampled the tents, then grabbed Deorr. Common sense would tell one that didn't happen.

A cougar was once observed jumping 12 feet into a tree with a deer in its mouth. They can kill prey 7 times their weight and can take down moose. (http://www.ipuma.org/site/pumas/) One jumping into a tree with a toddler or carrying off one without leaving evidence isn't improbable. I'm guessing if Deorr's disappearance is cougar related then it was a young cougar looking for his own territory and in a desperate state, which would make him/her more willing to chance being near both the wolf pack and humans.

Another unfortunate possibility is a former pet cougar that's been released into the wild and is unafraid of humans and struggling to survive. We have this problem in Missouri on occasion (I haven't changed my profile to my new state). Owning large exotic animals isn't regulated much. I personally think this is a stretch, but it's remotely possible.

By the way, an interesting fact some of you may not know is that mountain lions can't roar but they do purr just like domesticated cats.
 
REMINDER: If it cannot be linked with an appropriate Main Stream Media source or if it falls outside of TOS, do not discuss it, suggest it, or even hint at it here.

The dissemination of rumor in this case must end. Mods have issued warning after
warning about such behavior.

Thank You

tlcya

Am I allowed to speak about a public record not involving the family? TIA for your advice.
 
This is along the lines of what I've been thinking too. I never once thought a cougar waltzed into camp, leaped over the trucks, stepped on GGP's foot, swatted GGP's friend, trampled the tents, then grabbed Deorr. Common sense would tell one that didn't happen.

A cougar was once observed jumping 12 feet into a tree with a deer in its mouth. They can kill prey 7 times their weight and can take down moose. (http://www.ipuma.org/site/pumas/) One jumping into a tree with a toddler or carrying off one without leaving evidence isn't improbable. I'm guessing if Deorr's disappearance is cougar related then it was a young cougar looking for his own territory and in a desperate state, which would make him/her more willing to chance being near both the wolf pack and humans.

Another unfortunate possibility is a former pet cougar that's been released into the wild and is unafraid of humans and struggling to survive. We have this problem in Missouri on occasion (I haven't changed my profile to my new state). Owning large exotic animals isn't regulated much. I personally think this is a stretch, but it's remotely possible.

By the way, an interesting fact some of you may not know is that mountain lions can't roar but they do purr just like domesticated cats.

BBM and I agree it's a pretty remote possibility but along those lines I would add perhaps a "pet" wolf or wolf hybrid that someone dumped. I really don't think it's likely at all, but it is interesting to consider because such animals would not be afraid of humans and often display unpredictable behavior when compared to their wild cousins.
 
I agree that if he wandered off a good ways from the camp, the chance of a predator attack might be greater, but you still have to factor in all the initial noises that would have run them off in the first place.

Snipped for brevity

The above quote is where I differ from most in my belief that a cougar attack is a very real possibility. Cougars are very nosey, noise seems to attract them, except of course a war, ATVs, gunshots, what have you. The old expression "curiosity killed the cat" is quite applicable to them. The entire time the family was setting up camp, the cat could have been watching from the edge of the woods and none would have been the wiser. When the parents left, grandpa turned his back, cat crept out and pounced when the time was right. Or Deorr could have walked toward him, making it even easier. It would probably have been a silent pounce, quick, clean and deadly, one bite to the throat and off he went with his kill. The cat could have carried a child that small in his mouth, hence no drag marks. He could have taken him up a tree, he could have carried the child for miles to a hidden den where nothing would ever be found, boots included.

In the case of Jared Atadero, whose body was found several years after he disappeared without a trace, LE/SA&R concluded he was the victim of a cougar since there was a piece of skull, and clothing found way up on a steep, rocky incline. His father, however, along with Paulides are questioning that, the father thinking his son was abducted. Is this sounding familiar yet? Well, to my way of thinking, which make more sense, the remains in this very steep, out-of-the-way incline were left by a cougar, or some pervert hauled them up the 70/75 degree incline to throw us off? I vote for the cat doing what big cats do.

I can't say for sure this is what happened, nor can I verbalize what I feel may otherwise have happened. I just want to make people aware that nothing/no one is 100% in their effectiveness or their knowledge of wildlife. Cats are a lot smarter and sneakier than you think.

Here's a link to someone who seems to feel the same way:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1019976/pg1
(Skip the url for Cougarattacks.org, all I got was ads for older women and bobcats for sale)

Lest wolf people feel left out:
http://www.secretsofsurvival.com/survival/wolf-attacks.html

My opinion only
 
I agree. The Middle Fork of Timber Creek goes right where the red arrow is.

Timber Creek North Fork and Middle Fork eventually join downstream into just plain Little Timber Creek. I think that then flows or becomes (big) Timber Creek and maybe even heads toward the Leadore area.

Yeah, I think you're right. There are several small streams that wind together to make another river. Uh, Bannock River? Lemhi River? I don't remember what that one's called. And that enters the Salmon River, I think right near the town of Salmon.

The Salmon is called the River of No Return, by the way, because it's so rugged and isolated. It's not navigable and there's no road. Not that that has any bearing on this case.
 
Yeah I have a hard time with the clerk's 6 p.m. sighting. If Deorr was kidnapped, I have a hard time believing the kidnapper would take Deorr to the closest point of civilization and bring a very noticeable Deorr into the store. If I were the kidnapper I would be trying to get as far away as possible, and keep my victim as hidden as possible, especially with a 5 hour lead over the parents and authorities.

Right. We know at 6 pm, it wasn't daddy and baby Deorr. The time discrepancy doesn't make sense - did someone really confuse early evening with the middle of the day? Especially if you consider that if it's the same clerk, you're talking about early on in her shift versus later, presumably toward the end of her shift (6 hours between what the family reports versus what she reports and assuming an 8 hour work day). I'd be very willing to say that if she's sure about it being 6 pm, then it was just some other father/son duo passing through that has nothing to do with the disappearance. Trucks aren't exactly rare around here and black, or some variation like a dark grey or blue that could be mistaken for black, isn't uncommon, either. But then why are the parents sure that her sighting that she says occurred at 6 pm is really them? In other words, they want to claim the sighting, nailing down that they were in the store, but they want to tweak the time that it occurred when the logical explanation of a 6 pm sighting is that it was just someone similar.
 
http://assets.eastidahonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/15153620/Deorr-Kunz-911-Call.mp3
If you listen to the 911 call somethings not right about it, I have a 3 year old son and if my wife were making that 911 call after not seeing him for a hour she would of been more frantic but still coherent.

What were the parents doing when they went "exploring" ? What was so important that made them leave without making sure there son was safe.

Respectfully, none of us can say with 100% certainty what they would do or how they would react in this type of situation. To make those assumptions for another person is even less certain.

And Law Enforcement has told us the parents are solid so there is no sleuthing of them for now.
 
Right. We know at 6 pm, it wasn't daddy and baby Deorr. The time discrepancy doesn't make sense - did someone really confuse early evening with the middle of the day? Especially if you consider that if it's the same clerk, you're talking about early on in her shift versus later, presumably toward the end of her shift (6 hours between what the family reports versus what she reports and assuming an 8 hour work day). I'd be very willing to say that if she's sure about it being 6 pm, then it was just some other father/son duo passing through that has nothing to do with the disappearance. Trucks aren't exactly rare around here and black, or some variation like a dark grey or blue that could be mistaken for black, isn't uncommon, either. But then why are the parents sure that her sighting that she says occurred at 6 pm is really them? In other words, they want to claim the sighting, nailing down that they were in the store, but they want to tweak the time that it occurred when the logical explanation of a 6 pm sighting is that it was just someone similar.

What if the sighting was really at 6 pm the day before little Deorr went missing? I haven't seen anything in MSM that says they arrived at the campground the same day he went missing. We know virtually nothing about their camping trip.
 
I think if any wild animal grabbed a child ,there would be evidence of that, a blood trail or animal tracks. Some type signs would point to that having happened and tracking dogs would still get a scent on that so the scent trail would lead to other evidence that an animal had done something. Even if it was a fearless ex pet or whatever. Watching video's of hunting animals will show that an attacking animal is pretty violent . They use teeth and claws .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
197
Guests online
3,318
Total visitors
3,515

Forum statistics

Threads
592,136
Messages
17,963,859
Members
228,696
Latest member
NMR0715
Back
Top