ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #5

[bluesneakers]

I hope that there is some one that has the skills to talk to GGP,

IR comment to the reporter did you talk to GGP, makes me wonder what GGP may have witnessed

Those picnic tables look like they are attached to cement slabs, if they are attached LE would have looked to see if slab may have been lifted then set back down, seen if weeds around it had been disturbed. Does anyone know if the picnic tables in that state park are on cement slabs?

Skills? Like sign language or something?

 

[MyBelle]

I did't think that they hadn't been questioned, I'm even positive that they were questioned to the ability and knowledge that the local police are capable of, when was the last time this LE was dealing with a major crime such as abduction or murder. I just figure that the questioning from the FBI will be more in depth, I'm pretty sure that the FBI are more skilled in the art of interrogation,

Maybe from the start the LE was eyeing someone that was staying on that site and he has kept the information very close to the vest, maybe LE thought he could break that person, get them to confess, that hasn't happened so he is bringing in the FBI.

BBM. I think that is exactly what is going on. I just wish it had happened sooner.

JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

The FBI was notified so that DeOrr would be entered into the national data base created as part of the Missing Children's Act of 1982.

Being notified doesn't automatically get a field office "involved" in the active investigation because they work in partnership and are a resource to local and state law enforcement. I'm pretty sure the Sheriff is still the lead investigator in this case.

JMO

I was asking gitana1 about her comment specifically, but thank you.

So it's your opinion they are not yet involved if the Sheriff is still the lead investigator? Or do you mean he's the lead investigator even though the FBI has been called in?

This is the actual quote from the Sheriff:

The sheriff also said on Friday that the FBI is sending a team of investigators to assist the Lemhi County Sheriff's office who will be checking the sheriff's office interviews and may re-interview some people to make sure deputies didn't miss anything.

I've always assumed once the FBI comes in they take over, but I honestly have no idea if that's true.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

What makes you think there has been no questioning? I'm surprised to see how many people feel that four, separate LE agencies involved in this case, as well as the NCMEC, and various professional search and rescue professionals, are all just totally inept and haven't been thorough.

Let's be real. The other agencies are not going to question or interrogate the reporting parties without permission from the main department. They are the ones to dictate how the case is handled and are responsible for overseeing interrogations of POIs/Suspects. While I am certain there has been questioning, I don't know how in depth the interrogation part of the program has gone with anyone. LE wants cooperation and if they pressure people, the cooperation goes away in most cases.

 

[MyBelle]

I haven't either. I remember it stated very early on that several agencies were involved in the searches.

When I checked on Day 3 of this case, DeOrr was on NCMEC so it would seem they followed the correct process.

http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMC/1251277/1/screen


And the Idaho Criminal Intelligence Center was managing leads pretty early on. Once example:
http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_a1e0673c-29e7-11e5-a639-878d4368b6fe.html

For anyone curious of how the FBI collaborates with police at the state level, you can check out the ICIC website here:

https://www.isp.idaho.gov/icic/

It may be worth mentioning that once the FBI is fully involved, information is rarely made public if there is no amber alert.

I know someone who is an assistant U.S. Attorney and he told me that it is Justice Department policy that there be no public comment on an ongoing criminal investigation. Leaks to the media are not tolerated. In this case, I think the only public comments will come from the Sheriff's office.

JMO

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I was asking gitana1 about her comment specifically, but thank you.

So it's your opinion they are not yet involved if the Sheriff is still the lead investigator? Or do you mean he's the lead investigator even though the FBI has been called in?

This is the actual quote from the Sheriff:


I've always assumed once the FBI comes in they take over, but I honestly have no idea if that's true.

No. The lead is always the local department who took on the case from the onset. FBI is there to assist.

 

[MyBelle]

But as an attorney, you have a knowledge base about legal procedures, rights of accused, etc., that non-lawyers do not, which you would certainly draw upon when being questioned by LE. Would you advise the rest of us, who do not have that skill set, to refrain from utilizing counsel?

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Good point. An attorney present will help ensure you don't incriminate yourself.

JMO

 

[Jules71]

BBM
Hi Gitana
What I see on here is perhaps a lack of confidence in the Sheriff's Department. Only speaking for myself here...we (my family) had three members who were LE. One was tragically killed in the line of duty. It was devastating to our family. Even with that upbringing/exposure, I still do not blindly believe in everything LE does and says. I have seen corruption, politics, secrecy, etc. too much in the last few years in the national news. So for me, I'm very very relieved that the FBI is being brought in, if nothing more than to assist a smaller office and offer more resources. Its like getting a second medical opinion. All JMO and I have wanted nothing more than for baby DeOrr to be found and truth/justice to prevail, whatever that might be. All JMO

I agree. And in your scenario, it is like getting a second opinion from a specialist rather than from another family dr. JMO

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[MyBelle]

I was asking gitana1 about her comment specifically, but thank you.

So it's your opinion they are not yet involved if the Sheriff is still the lead investigator? Or do you mean he's the lead investigator even though the FBI has been called in?

This is the actual quote from the Sheriff:


I've always assumed once the FBI comes in they take over, but I honestly have no idea if that's true.

They work together. They don't take legal jurisdiction unless there is evidence of a federal crime. FBI has teams which are a resource available to the Sheriff but legal jurisdiction over the case still belongs to the Sheriff at this point in time.

JMO


The CARD team, created in 2006, has been deployed more than 100 times for approximately 108 victims, both domestically and—when requested—abroad. Numerous children have been located and safely returned to their loved ones. Tragically, the remains of victims have also been found—though this can at least provide some sort of closure for their families.

The 60 or so agents who make up the CARD team are stationed at field offices around the country. Each is assigned to one of five regional teams that cover the Northeast, Southeast, North Central, South Central, and Western United States and are deployed at the request of a field office. Deployment size depends on the case and the particular needs of local responders.

CARD team investigators are seasoned veterans of crimes against children cases—especially child abductions—and have received extensive training. While some local law enforcement agencies may only work one or two child abduction cases a year, CARD team agents work these kinds of cases all the time, keeping their unique skill set honed.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...ild-abductions/investigating-child-abductions

 

[skinnycat]

Skills? Like sign language or something?

No like dealing with the elderly, my mom is well having issues, I've listened to her be questioned about things, amazing the different ways to word things to get to the bottom of something, and I think that the FBI will have someone that has the knowledge and the skills to be able to hopefully get some answers" I can't see GGP being to far gone or why would it matter to take GGP to a favorite spot

 

[bluesneakers]

They work together. They don't take legal jurisdiction unless there is evidence of a federal crime. FBI has teams which are a resource available to the Sheriff but legal jurisdiction over the case still belongs to the Sheriff at this point in time.

JMO


The CARD team, created in 2006, has been deployed more than 100 times for approximately 108 victims, both domestically and—when requested—abroad. Numerous children have been located and safely returned to their loved ones. Tragically, the remains of victims have also been found—though this can at least provide some sort of closure for their families.

The 60 or so agents who make up the CARD team are stationed at field offices around the country. Each is assigned to one of five regional teams that cover the Northeast, Southeast, North Central, South Central, and Western United States and are deployed at the request of a field office. Deployment size depends on the case and the particular needs of local responders.

CARD team investigators are seasoned veterans of crimes against children cases—especially child abductions—and have received extensive training. While some local law enforcement agencies may only work one or two child abduction cases a year, CARD team agents work these kinds of cases all the time, keeping their unique skill set honed.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...ild-abductions/investigating-child-abductions

So, you think they're working together but not officially involved. Interesting. I would think once they're called in - I mean in this case they're sending a team of investigators - that counts as "involved." At least that's how I would explain it, whether or not the Sheriff is still the lead.

Thanks.

 

[gitana1]

So you think the FBI was notified or found out about it immediately but didn't get involved until now?

Yes. The have to be notified immediately per federal law:

The National Child Search Assistance Act (NCSA) is a U.S. federal legislation enacted in 1990. This Act requires each federal, state, local law enforcement agency to report each case of a missing child below the age of 21 to the National Crime Information Center (NCIC.)



Some provisions of the NCSA was amended by the Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act of 2006. Pursuant to the amendment, the NCSA is to require law enforcement to enter information about missing and abducted children in the NCIC database within two hours of receiving a report.


http://definitions.uslegal.com/n/national-child-search-assistance-act/.

BBM.

The NCIC is the FBI database. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Crime_Information_Center

Mybelle was linked to information about the CARD team. They are child abduction specialists within the FBI who deploy a rapid response to child abductions to assist LE or provide local LE with resources that local LE would not have. All they do are missing kid cases so CARD has a lot of experience, much more so than most local LE.

But they offer their assistance and they typically deal with obvious abductions.

In any event, "Congress gave the FBI jurisdiction under the “Lindbergh Law” to immediately investigate any reported mysterious disappearance or kidnapping involving a child of “tender age”—usually 12 or younger." https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/image/cac_agents1.jpg/view

The FBI does not need permission from local LE. However, I think that in most cases they are careful not to step on toes and won't get involved without approval or a request by a parent, or an agency like the NCMEC.But in obvious abduction cases the CARD team immediately offers their assistance. We don't have evidence of an obvious abduction here though. This started out as a routine lost kid case. (IMO, it will likely end there as well).

 

[gitana1]

They work together. They don't take legal jurisdiction unless there is evidence of a federal crime. FBI has teams which are a resource available to the Sheriff but legal jurisdiction over the case still belongs to the Sheriff at this point in time.

JMO


The CARD team, created in 2006, has been deployed more than 100 times for approximately 108 victims, both domestically and—when requested—abroad. Numerous children have been located and safely returned to their loved ones. Tragically, the remains of victims have also been found—though this can at least provide some sort of closure for their families.

The 60 or so agents who make up the CARD team are stationed at field offices around the country. Each is assigned to one of five regional teams that cover the Northeast, Southeast, North Central, South Central, and Western United States and are deployed at the request of a field office. Deployment size depends on the case and the particular needs of local responders.

CARD team investigators are seasoned veterans of crimes against children cases—especially child abductions—and have received extensive training. While some local law enforcement agencies may only work one or two child abduction cases a year, CARD team agents work these kinds of cases all the time, keeping their unique skill set honed.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...ild-abductions/investigating-child-abductions

First, understand that the "field office" is the FBI field office. Not local LE. Second, and again:

The FBI was given jurisdiction under the “Lindbergh Law” in 1932 to immediately investigate any reported mysterious disappearance or kidnapping involving a child of “tender age”—usually 12 or younger. However, the FBI goes one step further, as any child missing under the age of 18 the FBI can become involved as an assisting agency to the local police department. There does not have to be a ransom demand, and the child does not have to cross state lines or be missing for 24 hours. Research indicates that the quicker the reporting of the mysterious disappearance or abduction, the more likely the successful outcome in returning the child unharmed.
https://www.fbi.gov/cleveland/press-releases/2013/fbi-to-support-national-childrens-day

Emphasis by me.

There does NOT have to be evidence of a federal crime for the FBI to take jurisdiction. In other words, they can take over a missing kid case whenever they want.

But I agree with you that they don't unless there is clear evidence of a federal crime or serious problems with local LE. Without that, they just assist.

 

[gitana1]

But as an attorney, you have a knowledge base about legal procedures, rights of accused, etc., that non-lawyers do not, which you would certainly draw upon when being questioned by LE. Would you advise the rest of us, who do not have that skill set, to refrain from utilizing counsel?

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I cannot, under state bar ethical rules, give any of you any advice. I can only tell you what I would advise a hypothetical client. I would never advise anyone who may be guilty of a crime to avoid hiring an attorney. But if the goal is finding a missing a child, and I was clear that there is no way the client is involved, my advice to my hypothetical client would be to do whatever it damn takes to assist LE in finding the child.

You see, the attorney is really good for one thing at the outset of such cases - protecting the rights of a possible defendant. The attorney's advice to anyone categorized as a POI would be do not make a statement and do not take a polygraph.

Such advice could prove catastrophic to any parent whose child is missing.

However, some parents have hired attorneys later on when they've felt LE is not doing its job and to help them navigate the system, access info and put the pressure on.

But listen, I am a family law attorney and only do minor criminal law appearances. Let me ask my law partner what he would say (he does criminal law).

Regardless, the rights of the accused are to remain silent, have an attorney present, not consent to a search, etc. I would NEVER assert any of those rights myself if my child was missing...unless I was guilty of harming my child. Being in jail or arrested would be the very last of my concerns. Desperately finding my baby would be only thought. As it should be.

There is a reason Polly Klaas' dad and Adam Walsh's dad repeatedly stress the importance of complying with LE and the significance when parents lawyer up.

 

[bluesneakers]

No like dealing with the elderly, my mom is well having issues, I've listened to her be questioned about things, amazing the different ways to word things to get to the bottom of something, and I think that the FBI will have someone that has the knowledge and the skills to be able to hopefully get some answers" I can't see GGP being to far gone or why would it matter to take GGP to a favorite spot

I'm sorry about your mom.

This is kind of cool though. It makes sense - when we talk to children we have certain ways to make it more effective, and as people age their perceptions and cognitive abilities can change as well.

 

[nervous_nellie]

Could you show me where it has been reported that the sheriff just invited the FBI in? Also, has it been reported that they never notified the FBI per federal law, of this case until now? Because I haven't seen that.

Finally, LE take these missing kid cases very seriously and very personally and these are the cases they shed blood, sweat and tears over. The cases that haunt them. These detectives, these sheriffs have gone without showers, sleep, food and seeing their families, for hours and hours at a time, to solve this case. There is zero evidence of corruption or ineptitude here. Why are so many so vitriolic about the agencies involved in trying to find Deorr?

It is quite rude to refer to the lead in this case as "Deputy Fife." Quite rude and uncalled for.

:goodpost: I totally agree...and I know I cant be the only one with Mom and Dad as LE and it really bothers me to see any LE spoken about like this unless there is a really good reason. jmho

 

[persimmon]

The article mentions that Leadore is close to the Montana border. When I was asking about the possibility of the FBI becoming involved, this exact thought was in my brain. If there's evidence, or a probability that he was transported across state lines, it becomes a federal investigation, right? Of course, if he wasn't abducted, how would he get across state lines? Or maybe that line in the article was just a fun geography fact...

It is not true that a missing child has to cross state lines in order for the FBI to become involved but I do believe there must be certain criteria met before they send their special missing child field team.

 

[travelbug]

Maybe he works weekends and had not received time off for camping/searching?? Was this a spur of the moment or planned trip?

I don't really understand either how in 72 hours, rumors about his employer would have started. Unless he was talking about it - like man I'm supposed to go to work on such and such day I hope I don't get in trouble/fired for staying here to search for my lost son even though we think he was abducted. ??

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Perhaps he called in sick or made up an excuse about not going to work. This turn of events would certainly blow his cover and also have people questioning whether this was, indeed, a planned trip or a "spur of the moment" necessity. jmho

 

[Selah84]

Hi, haven't been keeping up very well. Just read a recent article the FBI is being brought in to possibly question people again. Does this mean there is a chance this has moved in the direction of a criminal invesrigation as opposed to an accident/missing child? Sorry for the ignorance and thank you in advance.

 

[IDTater]

It is not true that a missing child has to cross state lines in order for the FBI to become involved but I do believe there must be certain criteria met before they send their special missing child field team.

I understand that state lines don't have to be crossed for them to get involved. But if state lines are crossed, with absolute certainty, then it becomes a federal case, right? I guess I was just thinking out loud about the fact that a state line was mentioned, as if it has significance in this situation, when it doesn't necessarily, for the reason you stated. Just speculating because it seemed rather random.

"Montana is close to Idaho!!"