Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[MyLeftFoot]

This article http://www.news.com.au/national/no-...r-of-gerard-ross/story-fncynjr2-1226730066395
says

"Detectives said Gerard had suffered a senseless "brutal death" and that his body appeared to have been hurriedly dumped.

They initially suspected sexual interference but later said there was no evidence of it. Still, the cause of death was so horrific that it was kept from most of the taskforce. Gerard's parents were deliberately kept in the dark."

How do you understand how Gerard was found if his family doesn't?

Even if true, DNA advances will eventually find something on the ligature.

Why do you think that area is common to CSK? One victim attributed to CSK was found north of Perth, one south of Perth.

Why would CSK then go back south again for Gerard?

I don't believe the CSK did go back south again for Gerard. I think the anomaly is that he went north in regards to Ciara, possibly because he needed to shift police focus. I think he is very comfortable in the south.

 

[Sutton]

JR

- a few meters off the side of an unsealed road against a paddock fence and covered with some branches
- discovered after 57 days from memory
- Discovered by a iddle aged lady who go out of her husbands car to pick some devil lilies (fleur de lis)

CG

- 30 or so meters from the road in semi-dense scrub
- discovered after 19 days
- discovered by a young apprentice doing some work in the area. Think he went for a pis s.

From both of those descriptions it sounds as if there was some attempt to conceal the bodies. They weren't just dumped in plain site. Maybe Sarah was also placed semi-close to a road and quickly covered up, she just hasn't been found yet?

I was thinking about what would cause the killer to change his disposal method, but maybe he didn't change it.

The article posted above tells of a call the Spiers' received that gives a hint of where Sarah's body is located. It is the one call that her father believes is legit. I wonder what makes him think the caller had real knowledge (as opposed to the many fake contacts) and is there any other evidence to support Sarah's body being in this location?

 

[Bartholemeus]

From both of those descriptions it sounds as if there was some attempt to conceal the bodies. They weren't just dumped in plain site. Maybe Sarah was also placed semi-close to a road and quickly covered up, she just hasn't been found yet?

I was thinking about what would cause the killer to change his disposal method, but maybe he didn't change it.

The article posted above tells of a call the Spiers' received that gives a hint of where Sarah's body is located. It is the one call that her father believes is legit. I wonder what makes him think the caller had real knowledge (as opposed to the many fake contacts) and is there any other evidence to support Sarah's body being in this location?

I struggle to believe SS wasn't well hidden. I think he changed his disposal method.

I think he rationalised that what he did with SS was not the best option for one, or a number of following reasons;

1. Time. It took him too long to dispose of SS. He needed to do it quicker to reduce risk of detection
2. Time 2. He realised he wanted to spend more time with the bodies and to do this he had to a) abduct the girls earlier in the night, and b) dispose of them in less time
3. Distance. He may have taken SS a lot further out to dispose and felt this increased the risk of a random police stop or his vehicle being spotted
4. Distance 2. Also related to time. Driving further out may have taken too much time.
5. Publicity. He may have felt he needed the bodies to be found to enhance his experience.
6. Captivity time, or time with body. He may have kept SS overnight and dumped her the next day and for whatever reason decided he had to do the whole op in 1 night, meaning less time to dispose.
7. He may have buried her in his back yard and then seen a media article about another crime where a body was found on the killer's premises years later, and even though there was no DNA the killers fate was sealed. This may have prompted him to dump the bodies where it couldn't be connected to him geographically.

I think his disposal method with SS was different and he decided he needed to change. SS was abducted approximately 2am and at that time of year sunrise was 5am. 3 hours. Not a lot of time considering he probably spent a lot of time for disposal.

 

[Brightgirl]

I also think It would be interesting to review the remaining mutual friendships of Droc and TT.Given the vehement hatred of TT by Droc over what appears to be close to two decades and his claims that he is a SK, you'd think it would challenging to remain friends with both unless you had some vested interest in "sitting on the fence". Also having a look at the footage JR seems to be surprised to see MM, a POI named by wapol in 2008. Has anyone ever asked JR's ex boyfriends if they know of a friend that looks like MM? Could be something as simple as that. Maybe one of her x boyfriends knew MM. Well worth looking into.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Police Profile of the perpetrator - He likes to drive. He is proud of his vehicle and washes and polishes it. A controlled man who had carefully planned the abductions and murderers.


Profile by Dr. Ananth Pullela, a forensic psychiatrist

Expert: Look for 1st body east of Perth
Serial killer likely trying to spread evidence around
AAP

PERTH — The body of the first victim of a suspected
triple-murderer was probably hidden in scrub east of Perth, a West Australian government forensic psychiatrist said Saturday.

The body of Sarah Spiers, 18, has not been found although police
believe she became the first victim of a serial killer when she vanished
from suburban Claremont on January 27 last year.

The body of the second victim Jane Rimmer, 23, was found in scrub
35km south of Perth on August 3.

The third victim Ciara Glennon, 27, was
found Friday hidden in scrub 50km to the north.

Dr. Ananth Pullela, a forensic psychiatrist working for the health
department and justice ministry, said the killer was deliberately spacing
the bodies to avoid detection.

“We found one south of Perth, this time in the north; I’m
suggesting we should carefully be looking at bushland east of Perth,” Dr. Pullela told ABC radio.

“They (criminals) try to dispose of the bodies in different
directions mainly to avoid detection.

Dr. Pullela said the killer was trying to leave no clues to the
location where the murders occurred.

“I think he was trying to disguise the crime scene,” he said.

Rimmer’s naked body was found lying face down in swampy scrub
near a major arterial road in Wellard two months after vanishing from the Claremont nightlife strip on June 9.

Glennon’s body was also found three weeks after her disappearance
in scrub not far from a major road in Eglinton and metres from a side road popular with fishermen.

Dr. Pullela said the lack of care in disposing of the two bodies
so that they would not be found challenged the police profile of the killer.

Police have described the principal behind the three murders as a
controlled man who had carefully planned the abductions and murderers.

“If he’s so meticulous in disposing of the bodies, why hasn’t he
taken more precautions by disposing of the bodies in a much better way,” Dr. Pullela said.

“I’m actually targeting a disturbed psychological state. Is this
man disturbed at this point of time, not realising that by leaving the bodies metres away from a very busy road they could be detected?”

 

[Bartholemeus]

Dr. Ananth Pullela, a forensic psychiatrist working for the health
department and justice ministry, said the killer was deliberately spacing
the bodies to avoid detection.

“We found one south of Perth, this time in the north; I’m
suggesting we should carefully be looking at bushland east of Perth,” Dr. Pullela told ABC radio.

“They (criminals) try to dispose of the bodies in different
directions mainly to avoid detection.

Dr. Pullela said the killer was trying to leave no clues to the
location where the murders occurred.

“I think he was trying to disguise the crime scene,” he said.

Dr. Pullela said the lack of care in disposing of the two bodies
so that they would not be found challenged the police profile of the killer.

Police have described the principal behind the three murders as a
controlled man who had carefully planned the abductions and murderers.

“If he’s so meticulous in disposing of the bodies, why hasn’t he
taken more precautions by disposing of the bodies in a much better way,” Dr. Pullela said.

“I’m actually targeting a disturbed psychological state. Is this
man disturbed at this point of time, not realising that by leaving the bodies metres away from a very busy road they could be detected?”

I'd have to disagree with this profile.

1. There's just as much chance the CSK used the same dumping area and only changed when things got hot media and police wise. I lean towards south for SS, if not east. That's a pretty hard thing to profile though.

2. It's pretty obvious the CSK dumped the bodies somewhere other than they were killed to hide the crime scene. I don't think we need an forensics degree to work that one out.

3. She suggest the CSK should have taken more precautions to dispose of the bodies. In what way? Driven out to Dwellingup and risk a routine police pull over? Or be dumping the body after sun up? Pre-digging a grave and then someone stumbling across it and the police be waiting for him when he tirned up with a DB?

History shows us the CSK got this right. He seemed to get that perfect balance between time taken to travel to the dump sites, whilst undercover of darkness, but choosing a spot that would allow the bodies to remain undetected until DNA disappears.

Sure, an element of luck, but luck favours the brave. He seemed to know the percentages, play the percentages and everything went his way.

Only time will tell if improvements in DNA technology bring him unstuck.

3. She claims disturbed psychological state. I don't buy this at all. This guy is clinical.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I wonder what profilers think now? I think the police got the "he meticulously washes his car" thing wrong. He may do but I wouldn't think necessarily. What if he's anal about lots of things but just isn't into cars? He might insist on certain routines ut when it comes to cars he only cars to clean it after a kill to reduce risk of detection.

 

[crabstick]

I think the police have a lot more information, so for the most part people may think they know, but way off.

Evidence from the crime scenes may suggest he polishes his car a lot, or his boat. Plenty of chemicals discovered.

Both dump sites are in a locale that have proximity for the capacity to leave from Claremont in a yacht (yacht club 500 metres away) unchecked or seen by authorities, even in a hot situation with all the cops around, then head North or South in a yacht to a vehicle liaison at marina in the night, or beach to place the bodies then back to the yacht; the vehicle only has one person when heading back to vehicle stowage, wherever that maybe. Not in Claremont? The spatial locations of the bodies appear deliberate, and it may be on a nautical map.

There is so much the general public don't know.

Someone said Sarah lived on Mill Point road. There is a Stirling st off Mill Point road. Sarah went missing from cnr Stirling hwy and Stirling st. Cutlerwent missing from Mill. Exact home address of where Sarah lived would be useful, but shall remain private for obvious reasons, and that's fair enough.

Having access to all the data would mean it could be mapped with relationships. The police already have this.

Questions like, did Sarah attend primary school at St Columba South Perth? Things we will never know...

There is a lot of disinformation that has been posted, so its hard to know what is 'fact'

 

[crabstick]

According Debs book; Ciara was organising her sisters wedding catering the night before at Freshwater bay yacht club, the same vicinity Sarah was in a taxi. Another yacht club in close proximity where victims could be removed unimpeded by police scrutiny quite easily.

Cutler was at a staff catering event at the Parmelia hotel.

There is other references to the legal fraternity also. If someone knew Sarahs primary school, there may have been a relationship, friend, relative, parents associate, far further back.

 

[Brightgirl]

How did he die ? I wanna see a death cert

I have also wondered if Droc has admitted his role in the killings and gone into witness protection. He may have just given the whole crew and details up.

 

[Brightgirl]

There's a guy with the initials GL who was at Droc's wake and was facebooked with both of them. Would be interesting to know what his take is. TT was posting here and I didn't pick it up at the time but he (TT) was hinting that I was GL. He wasn't all that polite which suggests there may be some hard feelings.She had a boyfriend at one point. He was interviewed and ruled out very quickly.

I was saying that I believe her boyfriend knew MM, not that he was a POI. Yes and The guy at Drocs wake who's initials are GL also was the one to like drocs pic of his right foot and the swamp after an altercation with who we believe is TT a POI named by the police. <modsnip>

 

[Brightgirl]

I struggle to believe SS wasn't well hidden. I think he changed his disposal method.7. He may have buried her in his back yard and then seen a media article about another crime where a body was found on the killer's premises years later, and even though there was no DNA the killers fate was sealed. This may have prompted him to dump the bodies where it couldn't be connected to him geographically.

Very specific for a theory Barth.

 

[Brightgirl]

Just a comment on the Gerard Ross case....It has been widely assumed that it has nothing to do with the events around Claremont....Why?It is assumed that because Gerard was a child, he was taken by a pedophile. This is not necessarily so!I understand that Gerard was not sexually assaulted but that he had been badly beaten and had a ligature around his neck.This sounds like enacted rage to me. Someone who may have suffered similarly at the same age and possibly Gerard was just a convenient and vulnerable outlet for that. (poor lad!)What bugs me is the area where Gerard was found..An area that has commonality to one, quite possibly two of the CSK's victims and an area that raises the question.. Why/How is it significant to the CSK.

I would wonder if Crabstick has somehow linked the gerard ross case to the csk murders.

 

[Brightgirl]

I'd have to disagree with this profile.History shows us the CSK got this right. He seemed to get that perfect balance between time taken to travel to the dump sites, whilst undercover of darkness, but choosing a spot that would allow the bodies to remain undetected until DNA disappears.Sure, an element of luck, but luck favours the brave. He seemed to know the percentages, play the percentages and everything went his way.3. She claims disturbed psychological state. I don't buy this at all. This guy is clinical.

Luck favours the brave huh. What's brave about killing and disposing of a young girl? I'd consider driving with a dead body more Psychotic than brave. Shakes head.....

 

[Bartholemeus]

I have also wondered if Droc has admitted his role in the killings and gone into witness protection. He may have just given the whole crew and details up.

So you think WAPOL faked his death? That's a bit of a stretch don't you think?

 

[Bartholemeus]

I was saying that I believe her boyfriend knew MM, not that he was a POI. Yes and The guy at Drocs wake who's initials are GL also was the one to like drocs pic of his right foot and the swamp after an altercation with who we believe is TT a POI named by the .

1. The boyfriend may well have known MM. But I'm pretty sure her ex BF does not know GL.
2. Why did Droc have a picture of his right foot?
3. Was the altercation between GL and TT on FB? Do you mind sharing the contents. Apparently the cats out of the bag and someone alerted TT and GL that their FB were being monitored.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Very specific for a theory Barth.

It's just a theory. One of many I provided.

There's only a few ways this case can be solved:

a) Advancements in DNA technology
b) Missing items are located (brooch etc)
c) The CSK kills again and is caught

The missing pieces of the jigsaw, that we will probably never know unless the case is solved are;

a) Where is SS
b) Why did he stop killing
c) How did he get them into the car

 

[crabstick]

If the killer got Cutlers car over the rocks at Cott groyne like Billy? said, without a scratch then there is a tilt tray tow truck involved. Reverse it down down the service ramp, tilt the tray up to see the car over the rocks into the water.
The front seat taken out so the car doesn't float or clean evidence off the seat. Someone knows cars to take the seat out.

Did someone mess with Cutlers car then roll in with the tilt tray tow truck?

So we have Tow truck, access to panel beating shop that has cars turned into taxis or associated taxi repairs/mechanical.

We have chemicals all over the body sites associated with rust conversion, cleaning etc in the panel beating industry.

Cutler was killed the day before the day before the solstice

 

[crabstick]

Not if its a psychologist creating a persona. He could be framing someone. Its his game. It is a delusion though. Drugging girls in a coma. That sense of power which really; why would you want to feel like that? Did girls jilt you? You felt you needed to revenge your little boy hurt? Does he call girls, *advertiser censored* and *****es? He hates himself.

He drugs them then kills them in a coma so they feel so helpless. His delusion is power. He doesn't understand. He's delusional, filled with so much hate in himself. He wants to feel power, because he is so weak. He does this because it fills his little void.

His little game of hide and seek. But hes intelligent, because no one can find his game. He doesn't understand. It doesn't take a bright mind to hide something that cant be found. He hid the impossible first, left two so they would be found by the side the road so the evidence would be destroyed in the weather. Its little delusional game. He was never worthy. His little revenge.

Meticulously planned and executed, maybe over years

Is he gay? A tranny? His little revenge on the church. His little educational. A little story that wont ever appear to a court. His little political view.

Cutler went to psychology classes with someone in question?

Luck favours the brave huh. What's brave about killing and disposing of a young girl? I'd consider driving with a dead body more Psychotic than brave. Shakes head.....

 

[crabstick]

But the girls we smarter than they were. They are going to f@#@$% freak out when they find out why