OK - Five Bever family members slain in their Broken Arrow home, 22 July 2015 *Guilty*

[pepelepolecat]

This discussion hs been on here many times. I have asked the question and never received an answer. Please name one killer who came from a loving family. No, not Bundy or Dahmer.

You cannot raise a child in a toxic environment and expesct the child to come out without issues.

It is true that most abused children don't become killers, but I bet they all have issues, be it of depressiom, drug use ( that includes alcohol) , eating disorders, failed relaitionships, difficulties with jobs, prison for other issues, and so on. There is a price the child pays .

I have not seen a parent who does not feel that they provided support for a child to succeed whether that is beining them to lessons, providing opportunities, reading to them, etc.

bbm, of course not. Depression is common, and some struggle with ptsd. But I think many would be surprised how many otherwise healthy, functioning people have a history of being abused. There's an undeserved stigma, iow. In my opinion.

More than half of sociopathy is heritable, according to some research. (Ferguson, C. (2010).Genetic Contributions to Antisocial Personality and Behavior. Journal of Social Psychology). I hope this link is okay to share: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...are/201008/nature-vs-nurture-the-debate-rages

It's more complex than, "Well, he was abused." And imo (this is only my opinion), that generalization increases the unfair, unjust stigma against abuse survivors and gives us an easy way to ignore what other issues might have contributed -- especially if those issues require us to take a good long look at things that make us uncomfortable.

 

[Hatfield]

To a degree. But most people who are abused (even horribly abused) grow up and move beyond that -- they are good people who'd never hurt anyone or commit crimes/abuse. Do their parents take credit for those successes? I don't think they should, personally, and I also don't think that it's necessarily the parents' fault when a kid goes terribly, horribly wrong.

Given that both siblings were involved, they killed their younger siblings and they were planning on killing many more (to all appearances), I'm just not so sure that this one can be tied up with a neat bow and set under the "parental abuse/home school isolation/etc." canopy.

JMO
You bring up good points. The part of this story that provides some evidence of family dynamics being at least a part of this story is the fact that both boys seemed more than willing to be part of this.

It is so strange to me that both boys seemed more than willing to be part. So unless both boys are diagnosed with some sort of mental illness then I have to say that family dynamics may have been a part of this.

Someone did bring up a good point that the older boy could have pursuaded and controlled the younger one which could also come into play. But the younger would still have to agree to this atrocity.

I suppose the experts will be analyzing everything and time will tell. We may just have to wait a long time before the experts try to analyze what happened to the 2 boys.

In the meantime all we have is what we have gathered so far from friends and neighbors and maybe some relatives.

 

[Inthedetails]

I'm only learning about this case now. My hunch is that the 18yo was facing a crisis in his life - he was at the age when HE himself was responsible for his life. He couldn't blame mom and dad or his education because as an adult, you take responsibility for yourself and make something with what abilities and tenacity you have.

And that's the key word - tenacity. He thought of himself as smart and he blamed his parents for inadequacies in his upbringing....but what could he do for himself? Did he have the guts to venture forth on his own? Could he roll up his sleeves and put in the effort HIMSELF to make his ambitions come true? Did he realize it takes work more than smarts to make a life; it's not something mom and dad arrange for you anymore?

I think he was scared of the future and knew deep down that if he committed horrible crimes, he'd be taken care of for life in jail. And he could silence the very people who probably were encouraging him to make some moves on his own. I don't think he consciously thought this, but deep inside he knew the crimes would be an excuse why his life didn't work out. And if his sibling were dead, he wouldn't have to watch them succeed.

I don't think his parents were standing in his way at all in life. He was 18. If he wanted to go to Harvard or skydive or work at a fast-food joint, he could do that. He didn't know what to do, so he killed. Sick, sad, true, but that's how I see it.

He brought along his brother because misery likes company.

Armchair analysis. JMO.

 

[Hatfield]

I'm only learning about this case now. My hunch is that the 18yo was facing a crisis in his life - he was at the age when HE himself was responsible for his life. He couldn't blame mom and dad or his education because as an adult, you take responsibility for yourself and make something with what abilities and tenacity you have.

And that's the key word - tenacity. He thought of himself as smart and he blamed his parents for inadequacies in his upbringing....but what could he do for himself? Did he have the guts to venture forth on his own? Could he roll up his sleeves and put in the effort HIMSELF to make his ambitions come true? Did he realize it takes work more than smarts to make a life; it's not something mom and dad arrange for you anymore?

I think he was scared of the future and knew deep down that if he committed horrible crimes, he'd be taken care of for life in jail. And he could silence the very people who probably were encouraging him to make some moves on his own. I don't think he consciously thought this, but deep inside he knew the crimes would be an excuse why his life didn't work out. And if his sibling were dead, he wouldn't have to watch them succeed.

I don't think his parents were standing in his way at all in life. He was 18. If he wanted to go to Harvard or skydive or work at a fast-food joint, he could do that. He didn't know what to do, so he killed. Sick, sad, true, but that's how I see it.

He brought along his brother because misery likes company.

Armchair analysis. JMO.

Great post.

I also agree that him turning 18 may end up being a key "turning point" that put him over the edge.

 

[bluesneakers]

His eyes do look similar and strange.

We have talked before about certain phsychotic killer eyes and I am really beginning to think there may be some biologic correlation to large protruding eyes. Something like "hyperthyroid" or maybe something else?

Its just too much of a coincidence to me about so many of these types of killers have eyes that are noticeably protruding and noticeably strange.

Joe Holmes, Adam Lanza, this case, etc.

I found someone discussing about this so other people have noticed too. Ive never seen anything proven about it though and the hard part is we can never say all people that have large eyes are going to be killers. Its not always the case. But it does seem the opposite is true a lot of the times that a lot of the killers have large eyes.

Maybe combined with other signs of narcism and other things maybe the eyes will help identify them in the future though to help prevent the next mass killing. It would have to be used along with other signs.

I have found various articles about this but never any official doctor diagnosis or anything.

http://beforeitsnews.com/health/201...-do-mass-murderers-look-the-same-2462266.html

If you look at Karla Homolka's mugshot her eyes are small and sunken and Paul Bernardo's are also smallish (and flat and dead imo).

The only thing I've read about eyes is when the sclera is visible below the iris. There's a Japanese word for it - Sanpaku.

Are we allowed to link to wikipedia?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanpaku

 

[human]

bbm, of course not. Depression is common, and some struggle with ptsd. But I think many would be surprised how many otherwise healthy, functioning people have a history of being abused. There's an undeserved stigma, iow. In my opinion.

More than half of sociopathy is heritable, according to some research. (Ferguson, C. (2010).Genetic Contributions to Antisocial Personality and Behavior. Journal of Social Psychology). I hope this link is okay to share: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...are/201008/nature-vs-nurture-the-debate-rages

It's more complex than, "Well, he was abused." And imo (this is only my opinion), that generalization increases the unfair, unjust stigma against abuse survivors and gives us an easy way to ignore what other issues might have contributed -- especially if those issues require us to take a good long look at things that make us uncomfortable.

Child abuse is not OK. Stigma? I have never heard that but if that is true, it must be nipped.

It is not the child's fault!

Reading about some "accepted" methods such a blanket training by the Duggars makes me ill.

 

[human]

This is by a scientist who discovered he had psychopath in his genetic make up

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127888976

 

[Carrollz]

Inthedetails, it's just so hard for me to fathom because abstractedly it makes perfect sense but you still have to take the actions to get there that I just don't know how they were able to follow through with that and even after the fact having no remorse (but maybe that is just shock?) I was telling someone about this when I first read the motive here and he replied, "Oh, so he wanted to become famous and then be taken care of the rest of his life." I didn't even get that statement until I read your post here. I guess that is what it comes down to.

As far as conjecturing over their home life, it just doesn't seem to me like the parents did anything but the best they could and actually much, much more than most. I was reading some comment elsewhere where someone said if only the parents took better control of their children and instilled a religious faith in them they wouldn't have had this problem -parents get it from both ends it seems. The reality is that healthy normal adults do come from all kinds of chaotic upbringings as long as the children are not malnourished or never receive physical contact I don't think we can entirely blame parents (beyond passed on genetics) for them growing up into murderers -nowadays with the internet and computer games/programs even children in isolation (which while perhaps not the most social and community involved people around certainly was not the case here) are being raised by a village beyond just their own family. I just can't point the finger here at the parents... with how much outside contact/opportunity, financial security, family members, etc these boys had no matter how awful their parents may have been behind closed doors (and I still feel all indications point towards them being very loving caring parents) theirs was still a much, much better upbringing than many people I know had (which is only part of why this particular case freaks me out so much). I'm pointing the finger directly at those boys, they are completely of their own monstrous creation, imo.

 

[Carrollz]

I just have not been able to get this story off my mind, I was reading about the 911 call and sounds like there was a lot more to it with the caller able to discuss location and ask for help and sounds of a 'gruesome' struggle were heard, it makes me wonder about a comment in one of the papers I read that when the police arrived they saw blood on the step at the front door... was one of the children trying to escape? It's all just so, so horrifying and sickening, that poor family, those poor children, I cannot even imagine being betrayed by their big brothers like that...

 

[fabvab]

A vigil is planned for this evening with purple and white balloons. White for the innocent lives lost and purple for domestic violence. The vigil will take place in front of the home, and they are collecting items to give to the 2 surviving girls. The organizers were told by the Broken Arrow police that the 13 yr. old is encouraged by every display of love that's being shown for her family.

These 2 links give more details to the above info. You can also follow the links and find all other stories done by this local TV station which is KOTV.

http://www.newson6.com/story/29664215/community-remembers-murdered-ba-family-collects-goods-for-surviving-children

http://www.newson6.com/story/29645539/community-showing-support-for-members-of-murdered-ba-family

 

[FragileSugar]

Another reddit thread she posted : "The ages are 18 16 12 11 9 4 1. I started when my first was in preschool. I like that I got to spend everyday with my now 18 yr as he grew up. My oldest slowed down on his to go work so he did not graduate early but my 16 yr old just finished his online hs and graduated early."

This was 7 months ago. Maybe the 16 year old had extra time since he finished his online hs early and he started bonding more with his older brother? I don't know. I just don't understand how two children could not only murder their own parents but also their younger siblings and show no remorse.

Sorry to quote myself but a thought occurred to me as I was reading everyone's speculation about why these two boys killed their family. I remember reading the April Bever's post about the boys' schooling and I'm going to toss this out here: What if the 18y/o wasn't the one in charge? In his mugshot he has a crazed, unhinged sort of look. Meanwhile the 16y/o looks positively chilling in his mugshot - much more cold and calculating with dead eyes. What if he was the one pulling the strings and manipulating his older brother? The 16y/o had the drive to finish high school early. The 18 y/o slowed down and didn't graduate "early" (did he finish on time?) and we've heard from his former co-worker that he had some sort of superiority complex and was too busy blaming his homeschooling as the reason for not being able to get in to places like Harvard. It would be easy for someone (like the 16 y/o) to manipulate a person like that (the 18 y/o)- listen to their grievances, feed them suggestions and what-if scenarios, and play the part of the supportive underling. The 18 y/o is the one doing all the talking right now and I've noticed that all the attention is on him and the general consensus seems to be that he was the ring-leader and he is the one that led the younger brother on this undertaking.

 

[chissus]

Interesting. I hadn't thought of this. Deserves thinking about.

 

[Carrollz]

Unfortunately, and as awful as it is to comprehend, I really just can't see there being a ring leader here in this situation, not with the others trying to escape and calling 911 for help, and it obviously being a situation that had to have been discussed and planned out for some time. I feel like they had to both be 100% into it and equally 'in charge' for them to have managed what they did.

 

[FragileSugar]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/28/broken-arrow-oklahoma-bever-family-stabbings-911-call

An Oklahoma city said on Tuesday it wouldn’t release a recording of the 911 call made from a Broken Arrow home where a couple and three of their children were stabbed to death last week.

Authorities initially said the call, described by Broken Arrow police sergeant Thomas Cooper as “gruesome”, would be released on Monday, but an assistant to the city attorney indicated on Tuesday to the Associated Press that it would not be released because it is part of the investigation into the deaths of the five members of the Bever family. The assistant, Rhonda Hunter, said the attorney’s office would issue a statement later on Tuesday.

Cooper had previously described the nature of the call: the caller reports that his brother is attacking the family before the caller and dispatcher have a short exchange about the location of the home.

“They’re able to confirm the location, and then it basically goes to an open line for a little while and you can hear a struggle there and then it disconnects,” Cooper said then. “It’s fairly short, but it’s gruesome. Obviously the entire crime is gruesome, and the 911 call is just as bad.”

 

[bessythecat]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/28/broken-arrow-oklahoma-bever-family-stabbings-911-call

An Oklahoma city said on Tuesday it wouldn’t release a recording of the 911 call made from a Broken Arrow home where a couple and three of their children were stabbed to death last week.

Authorities initially said the call, described by Broken Arrow police sergeant Thomas Cooper as “gruesome”, would be released on Monday, but an assistant to the city attorney indicated on Tuesday to the Associated Press that it would not be released because it is part of the investigation into the deaths of the five members of the Bever family. The assistant, Rhonda Hunter, said the attorney’s office would issue a statement later on Tuesday.

Cooper had previously described the nature of the call: the caller reports that his brother is attacking the family before the caller and dispatcher have a short exchange about the location of the home.

“They’re able to confirm the location, and then it basically goes to an open line for a little while and you can hear a struggle there and then it disconnects,” Cooper said then. “It’s fairly short, but it’s gruesome. Obviously the entire crime is gruesome, and the 911 call is just as bad.”

I know there was some confusion about the 911 call being released. According to Lompo Record "An Oklahoma city reversed course Tuesday and said it would release a recording of the 911 call made from a Broken Arrow home where a couple and three of their children were stabbed to death last week.

Broken Arrow City Attorney Beth Anne Wilkening said in a statement that investigators would provide the audio to the media next Tuesday."
Source: http://lompocrecord.com/news/nation...cle_a132b3f0-4291-5bbc-a9d8-cd288dc9d809.html

 

[PastTense]

First-degree murder charges were formally filed Friday against two Oklahoma brothers accused in the stabbing deaths of their parents and three siblings. Robert Davis Bever, 18, and Michael John Bever, 16, were each charged with five counts of first degree murder in the July 22 deaths of parents David Bever, 52, and April Bever, 44, and siblings Daniel Bever, 12; Christopher Bever, 7; and Victoria Bever, 5. The brothers were also charged with one count of assault and battery with intent to kill involving multiple stabbings inflicted on a 13-year-old sister who survived the attack.

Robert and Michael Bever are scheduled to make an initial appearance on the charges in Tulsa County District Court Monday, when a plea is likely to be entered on their behalf and a preliminary hearing date set. Court records did not show whether the brothers are represented by an attorney. Tulsa County District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler, whose office filed the charges, has said Michael Bever will be tried as an adult.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/brothers-charged-counts-murder-stabbing-deaths-32812532

 

[mikkismom]

Oklahoma suburb searching for answers after fatal stabbings
http://www.ivpressonline.com/news/n...cle_671322be-9c12-5ae5-8efa-77a0fa4bef96.html

 

[human]

Oklahoma suburb searching for answers after fatal stabbings
http://www.ivpressonline.com/news/n...cle_671322be-9c12-5ae5-8efa-77a0fa4bef96.html

Scary.Something was not right.

 

[Mollyn59]

I don't think these horrific murders had one thing to do with being homeschooled. Being homeschooled doesn't make the parents bad nor does it make children into mass murderers or even those who only kill one. I don't know why this excuse comes up if the offender happened to be homeschooled. Where are all the other thousands or possibly millions now of homeschooled children? They certainly aren't doing violent crimes and committing mass murder. These two are just stone cold murderers, plain and simple, imo.

We are hearing conflicting reports which is usual nowadays with the media we have. There have been articles stating the children had conversations with others when they were outside playing or doing chores. And one of the father's co-workers said he was a very nice man. And if the oldest was a drug user he sure had to socialize with someone outside of his family to obtain that. So I don't believe 1/3 of what I read in the media about this family who was unmercifully slaughtered at the hands of their own sons/brothers.

It causes me stress when I see it implied that homeschooling caused this. There is absolutely no factual basis to even support such a notion and its really unfair to the dead parents who cant speak for themselves. There is absolutely no excuse why these murderers did what they did to people they pretended to love.

Our children were never homeschooled but they did have friends that were and they were very social children where some participated in sports at the high school. One thing I have noticed about homeschooled children they seem to take their education very seriously. The ones I have known have excelled not only on their test results/graduating early but in life after they graduated and most of them went to college.

IMO I don't believe that people are meaning that these boys did this because they were homeschooled. I think it's the fact that these children were so isolated and the way these parents chose to homeschool contributed to this isolation. They were not involved in activities that many homeschooled children attend. While there are incidences of these children being outside, they were few and far between.

 

[Carrollz]

so from what neighbors say in that article the boys could be found out and about on their own even away from the house, clearly they had their own independence and freedom... I don't know about that neighbor that would "make it a point" to try to talk to the 16yo whenever he saw him alone, that was a bit odd I thought?