PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

[J. J. in Phila]

Also, if notice, the Jeep starts to turn only when it is even with the last space, and it look like a gentle turn. If it followed that path, it would have parked on the grass outside of the lot.

 

[wijg]

I've got a guy, on the ground, in Bellefonte, that is going to take the measurements this week. And if his measurements confirm my overhead geometry, I suspect he'll further confirm my assessment of "either he was parking or driving into a telephone pole".

But at this point, I'm not pushing one theory or the other re: the jeep. I'm simply saying we can't be certain if the jeep was cutting through or parking. I can see both sides. Unlike yourself, who dismissed the idea that it could be parking from the outset.

It doesn't take a Mensan to do the geometry. And by the way, you stated you didn't think cars would be there on the other side given the time of day. Well if you look at the security camera footage, and focus in on the top right part of the screen, there are still plenty of cars parked on that street. Its highly unlikely that anyone would consider that lot a safe "cut through" location at that time of day.

I guess this is what separates simple Mensans from us Triple-9ers... it's our attention to detail.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've got a guy, on the ground, in Bellefonte, that is going to take the measurements this week. And if his measurements confirm my overhead geometry, I suspect he'll further confirm my assessment of "either he was parking or driving into a telephone pole".

But at this point, I'm not pushing one theory or the other re: the jeep. I'm simply saying we can't be certain if the jeep was cutting through or parking. I can see both sides. Unlike yourself, who dismissed the idea that it could be parking from the outset.

It doesn't take a Mensan to do the geometry. And by the way, you stated you didn't think cars would be there on the other side given the time of day. Well if you look at the security camera footage, and focus in on the top right part of the screen, there are still plenty of cars parked on that street. Its highly unlikely that anyone would consider that lot a safe "cut through" location at that time of day.

I guess this is what separates simple Mensans from us Triple-9ers... it's our attention to detail.

If you take a look at the StreetView, you will see numerous empty spaces, even during the day. It doesn't take a Mensan to check that out either.

I'm thing, because of the angle, the Jeep might have been cutting to the right, to go around the end space. From the parking lot, that street is one way going to the left. It the Jeep was parking in the end spot, it was half way past it as it was turning. It has actually crossed over that blue box in the parking lot.

That said, the Jeep did stand out and RFG might have noticed it (and possibly an illegal turn as well).

Oh, and you still have not answered my question regarding that newspaper clipping. I could under understand how a friend or relative of Roy might save the clipping, but the idea that a murderer would save for something 9 years later seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

I was joking about the underwear. 4/15 was relatively cool and RFG might have had the fleece on all day. 4/16 reached well into the 60's if not hitting the 70's.

The temperatures iI have are a little bit to the south of where RFG was seen, so it might have slightly cooler in Bellefonte and Lewisburg, but probably only 2-3 degrees.

Well I hate to say this JJ but I was down in lewisburg and went a little past it on my way with some other people and I can say it was warm and it got warmer I was down to my T-Shirt hey the sun was out with some puff clouds here and there hey went from centre county drove on rt45 all the way to rt 147 got on there and then got off an exit to washingtonville

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

Well I hate to say this JJ but I was down in lewisburg and went a little past it on my way with some other people and I can say it was warm and it got warmer I was down to my T-Shirt hey the sun was out with some puff clouds here and there hey went from centre county drove on rt45 all the way to rt 147 got on there and then got off an exit to washingtonville

yea the mini turned from rt45 left onto rt15 and heading north and took a right onto another road but then you might know the other road

 

[Sutton]

I remember hearing that Ray was "captured on video behind the courthouse." It's been a long time since I've watched the Disappeared episode, so I don't remember the footage that shows Ray entering the courthouse. But he clearly does enter the courthouse. Are there any time stamps or do we know how long he is inside?

(Pics originally posted by wigj)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I remember hearing that Ray was "captured on video behind the courthouse." It's been a long time since I've watched the Disappeared episode, so I don't remember the footage that shows Ray entering the courthouse. But he clearly does enter the courthouse. Are there any time stamps or do we know how long he is inside?
View attachment 79008View attachment 79006
(Pics originally posted by wigj)

None that were shown. I have not seen the original.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well I hate to say this JJ but I was down in lewisburg and went a little past it on my way with some other people and I can say it was warm and it got warmer I was down to my T-Shirt hey the sun was out with some puff clouds here and there hey went from centre county drove on rt45 all the way to rt 147 got on there and then got off an exit to washingtonville

The temperature is not constant throughout the day. It tends to get warmer in the afternoon.

The recording station closest to Lewisburg is a bit south of the town. It tends to be slight warmer the further south you are.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Semi-relted. The grand jury recommends no charges against SPM: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150801_Kane__No_evidence_to_charge_Centre_County_DA.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

SPM has petition to empanel a county grand jury to look into such things as, "drug trafficking, corrupt organizations and unsolved disappearance cases,” emphasis added. I have no idea if this will include the Gricar disappearance or not.

http://www.centredaily.com/2015/08/04/4861954/centre-county-da-wants-judge-to.html

Since 2008, I have been a strong advocate of a grand jury to look into the RFG case.

 

[wijg]

SPM has petition to empanel a county grand jury to look into such things as, "drug trafficking, corrupt organizations and unsolved disappearance cases,” emphasis added. I have no idea if this will include the Gricar disappearance or not.

http://www.centredaily.com/2015/08/04/4861954/centre-county-da-wants-judge-to.html

Since 2008, I have been a strong advocate of a grand jury to look into the RFG case.

That's very interesting.

I have been speaking to people recently that have tried to convince me that SPM is on "the right side of things". Some of her shenanigans have not sat well with me, but after some conversations with some Centre County folk, I'm willing to consider that some of her shenanigans weren't actual shenanigans, but were possibly spun that way by her political enemies.

I'm very interested to see where this goes. Thanks for the link JJ. Our disagreements aside, I think you are genuinely interested in the truth. My apologies for being so confrontational lately. I'm just overly skeptical most of the time, because spending time in Centre County and mingling with many long time residents, I've come to the conclusion that no one can be trusted. So I always have that in the back of my mind when talking to anyone. And that dictates my interactions, but I'll try to be more neutral going forward.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Well, my question about the clipping, if it was available on-line in 2004-05, has not been answered.

I have attached a copy of petition; sorry for the poor quality.



Note that the President Judge must approve and that it will have an 18-24 month lifespan. It will also not involve any case touching on her.

 

[wijg]

I have to wonder... how many "unsolved crimes" are there in Centre County, and how many would have the gravitas to warrant in investigative grand jury?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The story does list a few. Betsy Aardsma (1969) and Dana Bailey (1987) are two technically unsolved murder cases. There are also three post 1980 disappearances of young women, the last, and more famous being PSU student Cindy Song (11/01/01).

There is also the drug trade, considering the demographics of PSU.

 

[Sutton]

What does an investigative grand jury have the authority to do? I thought GJ's could recommend/approve an indictment and were sometimes used by DA's to avoid preliminary hearings (thereby avoiding revealing their entire case).

Can an investigative GJ just look through all the case files and decide who (if anyone) should be indicted? Or can they order the DA to further investigate an individual or a specific aspect of the case?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What does an investigative grand jury have the authority to do? I thought GJ's could recommend/approve an indictment and were sometimes used by DA's to avoid preliminary hearings (thereby avoiding revealing their entire case).

Can an investigative GJ just look through all the case files and decide who (if anyone) should be indicted? Or can they order the DA to further investigate an individual or a specific aspect of the case?

They can recommend indictments, but the basically can subpoena things, records, witnesses, and in that way they could look in depth at an individual or an aspect of the case.

Assume they were looking me as a person of interest, for example. The could check my computer records from 4/14-4/17 and see what I was doing. (I actually did compile a list of where I posted at that time. I had a request for it from one reporter.)

 

[Sutton]

They can recommend indictments, but the basically can subpoena things, records, witnesses, and in that way they could look in depth at an individual or an aspect of the case.

Assume they were looking me as a person of interest, for example. The could check my computer records from 4/14-4/17 and see what I was doing. (I actually did compile a list of where I posted at that time. I had a request for it from one reporter.)

The description is jogging my general awareness of the process, but I think I need to take a class or read a book on basic legal proceedings (before I reveal my ignorance in a less forgiving conversation). I remember the GJ situation that arose during the JonBenet Ramsey investigation.

If Ray's disappearance is the/on the list of cases to go before the GJ, what do you & other posters think they would subpoena? The list would be so long!

If you could access one thing on the list of possibilities, what would it be? Can the GJ see the police files? Like could they ask to see the original reports of the possible sightings and subpoena the people who made the claims? Could they subpoena anyone who worked in the DA's office? And would they get to ask questions directly or submit a list of questions to the current DA or judge?

18-24 months might not be long enough. Especially if the GJ wanted to and was allowed to look at the early Sandusky investigation or Jonathan Luna murder (or suicide, not sure where that stands now). Could they do that?

J.J., did the list you provided clear you of any involvement (in the eyes of the reporter)?

If any other posters know the answers to any of my questions, please jump in, so I don't have to spend hours Googling

 

[Sutton]

The proceedings are all private, correct?

Are these the possible outcomes:

1. GJ recommends indictment, DA indicts
2. GJ recommends indictment, DA does not indict
3. GJ does not recommend indictment, DA indicts
4. GJ does not recommend indictment, DA does not indict

If the DA does not indict, would the proceedings of the GJ investigation EVER be released?

I know subpoenaed individuals can say what they were asked at some point, because I've read JonBenet books of several people who gave their accounts (but I don't remember exact wording, I could go back and check).

 

[Sutton]

Well, my question about the clipping, if it was available on-line in 2004-05, has not been answered.
...

RSBM. What clipping? Or can you point me back to a post, so I can figure it out?

 

[Sutton]

...I don't know the answer to "boxers or briefs" either.

RSBM. Hopefully the GJ will clear this issue up for us.