IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #2

[vestigare]

Oh no offense taken at all! I totally think that fraud needs to be weeded out asap- and there is so much of it that goes on that goes un-detected- eg small scale stuff done by many people across the country- like ER visits to get painkillers- that jacks up rates and it's just absolutely ridiculous.

Tell me about it. We all pay crazy rate because of the fraud.

 

[KristinSchmistin]

If you go by occam's razor, it's much more likely that the cop was ambushed, especially with the ambushes that are taking place all over, now. It seems less likely that a police lieutenant on the verge of retirement thinks of this elaborate fake-murder-suicide plot, in which he goes out of his way to this swampy area, calls for backup, shoots himself in the vest once, walks some more, and then shoots himself in a way that the round avoids the vest... While also ditching his pepper spray for some reason, and hoping that officers don't get there before his plan is complete, or that no one else is around to see anything...

JMO

BBM (and snipped for length)- here's where I'm at, too.

The most simple explanation.

And also, if it were some elaborate plot, then there would be NO way for him to do it on his own and have it look like a suicide so other officers would need to cover for him - which would NEVER happen. Noone else is risking their own job/reputation/pension to cover for this guy.

 

[vestigare]

Also do we know if his vest was a Bullet Proof Vest? It may have been just a tactical vest? The ones with all the pockets.

 

[vestigare]

Even if the responding officers heard the two shots, what difference would it have made? I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to insinuate.

He may not have wanted innocent bystanders to find his body. So he found a place that was loud and where gunshots wouldn't draw a crowd but where after his last call he knew his coworkers would get there quickly and find him first.

 

[vestigare]

BBM (and snipped for length)- here's where I'm at, too.

The most simple explanation.

And also, if it were some elaborate plot, then there would be NO way for him to do it on his own and have it look like a suicide so other officers would need to cover for him - which would NEVER happen. Noone else is risking their own job/reputation/pension to cover for this guy.

Other officers cover for other officers every day, all day in this country. Sorry, but that is just a fact. And they may not think it is a big deal because he did so much for the department and the money goes to his family. They also didn't go into this assuming it was suicide and are sort of now stuck looking rather foolish if it is suicide and would look pretty bad themselves, so at this point it might be more about saving their own skin.

But you are right he would have needed to assume they would cover or they wouldn't investigate enough to know the difference, which is huge.

 

[m00c0w]

Do you have a link to the bruising info? Yes, if he shot himself in the vest while wearing it he should have a bruise unless it was a glancing bullet that hit his phone clip as was reported in some reports I read. Where would he have shot his vest while not wearing it? Anywhere in the country? In my back yard I can shoot vests all day long (not that I do but I do target shoot). Just saying it isn't like you need some secret hidy hole to shoot things in this country. We are all just assuming he actually shot his vest that morning which we don't really know yet. But if the coroner did say he had bruising and the bruising was indicative of a very fresh wound then okay he just did it.

The reason I ask is that IL is not a very gun-friendly state, and that it seems like Fox Lake is a fairly built-up area, not like he had tons of space away from people available to shoot at things like a bullet-proof vest without witnesses or someone getting alarmed and calling the police because they heard a gunshot. I guess someone could have mistook it for hunting, but is it even hunting season, and is that something prevalent around the area?

Stippling - It is difficult to explain on a forum with words. I will try.
I shoot my gun at my house at my vest. GP stippling is not on vest because I was far enough away. Not on hands now because some days have passed or I was able to wash enough off that later GP Residue doesn't show it. Or I shoot enough later rounds that the first round doesn't matter for GP residue on hand.

Yes, I understand that. This all makes sense.

I go to another scene and unload several rounds. I now have quite a bit of GPR on my hands and stippling on my clothing. Standard stance for shooting would be different than shooting downward into torso so stippling would be different. But lets say I shoot while lying on my back. Stippling changes. GP falls in a pattern onto my chest which is different that it would be if I were standing up to shoot at a suspect.

I guess this is where I don't understand. When I think "stippling", I think burnt marks around entrance wounds, mainly. If it was a close-contact gunshot, there is very little way to hide that from my understanding. The clothing would be burned, the vest might be melted a little, there would be some indication that the muzzle flash was right next to the surface of whatever it was against. This comes into play further on in the post.

He may have been kneeling to shoot at distance and to shoot himself. Pattern would change again. And all this is dependent on whether the forensics was gathered and properly analyzed for something other than homicide.

Very true.

How do you practice an aim? Well I don't think you practice a suicide aim. But assuming they preserved the crime scene which I doubt they did they should have been able to determine which angle the gun was when the final bullet hit his torso. Whether upside down, sideways, the distance etc.... It wouldn't be too difficult with a standard vest to take your handgun and do it one of two ways. Either straight down from under your chin, holding gun parallel with body and shooting (assuming he was right handed) down and towards the heart to the left away from the right hand holding the gun. This would insure a pretty good hole in the chest, most likely hit the heart and lungs, major artery and wearing the vest may have even helped contain the energy but not sure of the science there.

And going back to my understanding of stippling and close-range shoots, would it not be very obvious that the downward path was right up against his body/clothing/vest when fired? I don't think the angles (downward angle, entering above the vest) could line up with a struggle very well, so if it was a close-contact shot, it would point to it being self-inflicted as opposed to a "lucky" shot from a distance from someone else with the gun.

Or he could have shot himself through the armpit hole in the vest. My only problem with the armpit hole in the downward trajectory doesn't hit the heart or lungs and would leave it more open for him surviving. All of this would leave GPR but if he shot already his hands are covered in it so not much help there. But stippling on the vest would show an awkward angle.

The coroner said that he was shot above the vest, in a downward trajectory.

I am going to break this into another post to explain the GPR and stippling from the homicide standpoint.

Cool beans.

 

[cady]

As much talk as there has been about cop suicide and cover-up on this thread in the last week, I can see where an unstable grumpy old ex-cop might get to thinkin' about it too hard.

I doubt that we are all that influential! JMO

 

[KristinSchmistin]

You know, I was thinking to myself last night, "I sure hope the ex-cop that just got arrested for making those phone calls didn't get all his ideas from that Websleuths thread."

I remember back when the suicide theory was first introduced in this thread, my first thoughts towards the poster was, "You know, maybe you need to climb back into the box"...............................

YES! I showed it to my husband and he was like "nope. that would never happen and here's the very logical and simple reason why". I don't like to post anything that might make someone else upset or "call out" anyone - unless it's a really serious thing. And throwing around suicide conspiracy theories in this situation is very serious and extremely irresponsible.

And I'm the first one in line for a good conspiracy theory or wild speculation. But right here in the instance of Lt. Gliniewicz? Nope. It would be more likely that Marty McFly came back from the future and did it. Or aliens.

BBM and snipped for length-

 

[Keefer]

aome folks pushing the suicide " idea" really hard. Of course it is possible. It also could have been a murder. The " idea" that the Lt. Would fake a struggle ( for attention) shoot himself in the vest and then "accidentally " shoot himself in such a way that the shot is fatal even with his vest on is one I had never thought of. Is it possible? Of course it is. The idea of suicide is simply more contrived than the idea that 3 people got away.

 

[Japple]

<snipped for length>


Glad you signed on. Do me a favor, take a look at this map and tell me how many different ways someone could get to the location via vehicle to where the officer was found shot.

I've counted at least 4, including the open lot behind Precision Chrome, driving over the tracks at Rollins, the dirt road behind the water treatment plant, and by cutting through the field behind Open Arc computers.
Any other trails or roads there now that weren't there when this sat. image was taken a few years ago ?


You can zoom in and out as close as you want to. Left click and drag to move the map on your screen.

Map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zAAmDUXJe_aE.kdNsSY53CGeU&usp=sharing

I don't think there's any new roads or trails since the photo was taken, but I've been to the area just once in the last year or so. I had to turn around at precision and honing because the recycle shop was closed. The only place that would make sense for parking that wouldn't be detected by LT or 1st responders would be either of the parking lots imediatley adjacent to the intersection of honing and precision. One of those parking lots was used for school bus parking at one time. Not the bus parking that can be seen on the map on sayton, but the one on the south side of honing near precision Dr. It's also been used as a yard for an asphalt or concrete company. I don't know what it's currently being used as. It vary well might be vacant, or used for equipment storage.Maybe someone can tell from a recent news arial.

The other parking lots have too much traffic being close to businesses opening. Unless the perps were employees, they wouldn't park in a lot with people showing up for work or already working. It was turning out to be a hot day, and I would think that most of the overhead doors would be open.

 

[m00c0w]

Also do we know if his vest was a Bullet Proof Vest? It may have been just a tactical vest? The ones with all the pockets.

Yes, multiple sources say it was a bulletproof vest.

And he was wearing a bulletproof vest at the time, according to two law enforcement officials briefed on the investigation. One of the officials said Gliniewicz was hit by two shots -- one stopped by his bulletproof vest, and another that entered his torso at a downward angle.​

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/10/us/illinois-police-officer-mystery/

The Coroner reported that Lt. Gliniewicz was also shot once in his bulletproof vest for a total of two shots.​

http://nwigazette.com/2015/09/police-coroner-compromised-investigation-into-death-of-lt-gliniewicz/

And there are a few others out there. Seems likely it was a legit protective vest, and not just a carrier.

 

[vestigare]

The reason I ask is that IL ...


Cool beans.

shortened quote
I don't live in Illinois and never have so can't say how easy shooting would be and whether neighbors would notice. Maybe someone else would know. But I do know Goose hunting season started the same day in Illinois that he died because several hunters were really careful to remind the LEO during the manhunt to please not shoot them.

You are correct about the downward trajectory past the vest. I am also assuming the vest was bullet proof and the shot missed the vest completely. So the person shooting him would either need to be standing above him with Gliniwicz's head tilted back and really that is convoluted but plausible. Or Gliniwizc could have been charging the person in a bent over fashion, head looking up, which could have resulted in a shot downward to the torso.

You can get stippling some two foot away depending on the gun and the angle of everyone involved. So you are correct. And if he was shot while charging someone they will know pretty conclusively based on stippling and GSR.

In a rolling around struggle the person shooting him in that manner would need to get that gun tucked right up under his chin.

 

[vestigare]

Yes, multiple sources say it was a bulletproof vest.

And he was wearing a bulletproof vest at the time, according to two law enforcement officials briefed on the investigation. One of the officials said Gliniewicz was hit by two shots -- one stopped by his bulletproof vest, and another that entered his torso at a downward angle.​

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/10/us/illinois-police-officer-mystery/

The Coroner reported that Lt. Gliniewicz was also shot once in his bulletproof vest for a total of two shots.​

http://nwigazette.com/2015/09/police-coroner-compromised-investigation-into-death-of-lt-gliniewicz/

And there are a few others out there. Seems likely it was a legit protective vest, and not just a carrier.

Thanks.


Found a pic of him wearing a vest. http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.fox32...iniewicz_laid_to__0_174552_ver1.0_640_360.jpg

So if he was shot from chin downwards it had to be tucked up right under his chin.

 

[m00c0w]

shortened quote
I don't live in Illinois and never have so can't say how easy shooting would be and whether neighbors would notice. Maybe someone else would know. But I do know Goose hunting season started the same day in Illinois that he died because several hunters were really careful to remind the LEO during the manhunt to please not shoot them.

You are correct about the downward trajectory past the vest. I am also assuming the vest was bullet proof and the shot missed the vest completely. So the person shooting him would either need to be standing above him with Gliniwicz's head tilted back and really that is convoluted but plausible. Or Gliniwizc could have been charging the person in a bent over fashion, head looking up, which could have resulted in a shot downward to the torso.

You can get stippling some two foot away depending on the gun and the angle of everyone involved. So you are correct. And if he was shot while charging someone they will know pretty conclusively based on stippling and GSR.

In a rolling around struggle the person shooting him in that manner would need to get that gun tucked right up under his chin.

In a homicide scenario, the angle to me sounds like he was on his back, on the ground, and the person was standing slightly "behind" him, looking down his body. I'm not sure if that makes sense. But imagine you were on your back, and someone was standing at your head, facing your feet. But probably back a slight distance. If the person with the gun simply shot too high for a head shot, it would be at about the right angle.

It may be possible that there was a struggle, the LT tried to use pepper spray, but they wound up on the ground with a struggle for the gun. The subject shot the LT in the vest during the struggle, at which point he was probably hurting pretty good and couldn't fight much anymore. The person gets up as backup arrives, shoots the LT because dead men don't make good witnesses, drops the gun, and bails before they find the body.

 

[cady]

Also do we know if his vest was a Bullet Proof Vest? It may have been just a tactical vest? The ones with all the pockets.

I think it must have been, if he indeed was shot in the vest. No idea if there was damage to his body. I have looked but can't find a good video that Elley posted in thread #1 I think it was BulletSafe,bullet proof vests and showed vest being shot with different caliber weapons. Interesting. You judge...I know nada about guns. JMO

 

[cady]

Thanks.


Found a pic of him wearing a vest. http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.fox32...iniewicz_laid_to__0_174552_ver1.0_640_360.jpg

So if he was shot from chin downwards it had to be tucked up right under his chin.

What about through armhole? Be easier? JMO

 

[vestigare]

In a homicide scenario, the angle to me sounds like he was on his back, on the ground, and the person was standing slightly "behind" him, looking down his body. I'm not sure if that makes sense. But imagine you were on your back, and someone was standing at your head, facing your feet. But probably back a slight distance. If the person with the gun simply shot too high for a head shot, it would be at about the right angle.

It may be possible that there was a struggle, the LT tried to use pepper spray, but they wound up on the ground with a struggle for the gun. The subject shot the LT in the vest during the struggle, at which point he was probably hurting pretty good and couldn't fight much anymore. The person gets up as backup arrives, shoots the LT because dead men don't make good witnesses, drops the gun, and bails before they find the body.

Without a dummy and trying the angle I am trying to picture it. LOL
If someone is lying on their back and another person is above their head... Missing the headshot I would think you would hit the vest directly or the chin. Now it is possible it went through the chin first. That is a thought... or maybe the vest didn't do it's job? I guess you could be standing to the side of the person's head and fire it in such a way. Stippling and gun powder would show again whether he was on his back unless the shooter was more than a few feet away.

I hadn't thought of the pepper spray. They should know if the spray was used and if the suspect was hit the dogs would have been able to follow that.

I am still not sure the first vest shot was any big deal. A glancing blow to a vest wouldn't do anything. Now a full hit would knock the wind out of you and probably hurt like the dickens. I read somewhere, which I need to find and was probably just rumor, that it hit his phone or his phone clip and not even his vest fully. So I still hold out on any sort of thought how painful that shot was. We also don't know if that wasn't a second shot if this was homicide.

 

[m00c0w]

What about through armhole? Be easier? JMO

He was shot above the vest, at a downward angle, according to the coroner.

 

[vestigare]

What about through armhole? Be easier? JMO

Good point.

Yeah, I think Armhole would be way easier but without understanding exactly what the coroner meant by downward trajectory and such I can't say exactly.

Is Gliniwicz right or left handed? Not that a right handed person couldn't do a left handed shot in the armhole and hit his heart in downward position. Not that if you got the angle high enough on the right side you could get the heart.

Assuming he even aimed for the heart and didn't just blow a hold in the chest and get the lungs enough.

 

[Big Bread]

YES! I showed it to my husband and he was like "nope. that would never happen and here's the very logical and simple reason why". I don't like to post anything that might make someone else upset or "call out" anyone - unless it's a really serious thing. And throwing around suicide conspiracy theories in this situation is very serious and extremely irresponsible.

And I'm the first one in line for a good conspiracy theory or wild speculation. But right here in the instance of Lt. Gliniewicz? Nope. It would be more likely that Marty McFly came back from the future and did it. Or aliens.

BBM and snipped for length-

aome folks pushing the suicide " idea" really hard. Of course it is possible. It also could have been a murder. The " idea" that the Lt. Would fake a struggle ( for attention) shoot himself in the vest and then "accidentally " shoot himself in such a way that the shot is fatal even with his vest on is one I had never thought of. Is it possible? Of course it is. The idea of suicide is simply more contrived than the idea that 3 people got away.

I'm going to respectfully disagree. There is a lot of information that documents the commonality of police suicide.

http://www.theiacp.org/Preventing-law-Enforcement-officer-suicide

http://www.tearsofacop.com/police/articles/dugdale.html

http://www.policeone.com/health-fitness/articles/122042-Police-officer-suicide-prevention/

It's documented that police officers have a higher suicide rate than the rest of the population.

It's also documented that more police officers commit suicide than are killed on the line of duty.

So going by this, I would argue that it would be more probable and logical that Gliniewicz actually shot himself (twice) as opposed to the idea that 2 white men and a black man took his gun, shot him with it, left the gun behind, and all disappeared without a trace before backup arrived 2 minutes later. JMO. I know that's not a happy ending. But I just want to get to the truth.