Oscar Pistorius - Discussion Thread #66~ the appeal~

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If Frank was to "fess up" and his version matched that of OP's, I'm pretty sure there would be many on this board that would not be able to accept it and would assume he had been bought off.

IF his version would match OP's - yes, I would never ever believe him because the "tragic accident" may not have been a "tragic accident" but murder: Frankie's Master has killed his girlfriend Reeva, it's just so. The beginning perhaps was verbally with "fu***ng" this, "fu***ng" that - like Frankie had experienced by himself even during presence of TV reporters - and the horror end was taking a bat and a gun with Zombie stoppers.
How can Frankie sleep at night with this knowledge and dying screams in his ears/mind ...?
 
Many thanks for this. I will see what I can find but the links I really need are in spreadsheets giving the time, as far as can be judged, of the timing of the shots, shouts and screams, calling security etc for every person involved in giving testimony.

Mr Fossil kindly posted the link, I think in the last Discussion Thread (65). I will have to wade through that to find them.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AAwAEdcqEAjjPU4

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AP15bEJh--E96sg

At your disposal! :)
 
Apologies for suggesting that you may not interact. I was venting my frustration (as was quite obvious) at the suggestion that this was an accident.

Like others say, the logical thing to do would be to have asked Frank who was only feet/seconds away. I keep asking myself why did he need to ring Stander when there was somebody already in the house? I really don't believe Frank knows nothing. I hope one day he will "fess up" to what really happened. The police who interviewed him were of the opinion he was hiding something. Frank quite obviously heard something because he was standing outside OP's front door, fully dressed, before Stander arrived. I have always thought Nel should have put him on the stand and tried to break his story.

I think, Frankie isn't able to become aged enough to tell the true story. How many decades will have to elapse before someone will be allowed to speak/write about the truth??
 
I don't believe anyone asked OP why he didn't call Reeva's parents, perhaps he thought the police would do their job and notify the next of kin. Perhaps in all the chaos, OP had other things on his mind then making calls, like trying his best to save Reva
BIB - that takes care of about 15 minutes?
 
Let me turn the question back to you but I ask you to consider this before you answer.

Let's assume that it is you that made this tragic mistake and in a zeal to protect your partner you accidentally killed him/her.

How long should you go to prison?

Remember also, any fights or arguments you ever had along with any bad things you have ever done will be used as circumstantial evidence against you.

bbm
MY problem, if my character developed badly and at the end I killed "someone", even my girlfriend (not an intruder) and tried to conceal the murder. I have to live with uncovering my badness.
 
I don't believe anyone asked OP why he didn't call Reeva's parents, perhaps he thought the police would do their job and notify the next of kin. Perhaps in all the chaos, OP had other things on his mind then making calls, like trying his best to save Reva

Yes, with some large black plastic trash bags, part of every standard first aid kit. :notgood:
 
Yes, with some large black plastic trash bags, part of every standard first aid kit. :notgood:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but I have seen others say that the garbage bags were perhaps part of a "sinister" plan on the part of OP to bag the body and throw it out.

Sounds kind of silly, especially when others have said that this alleged murder was premeditated for quite some time, not just in the seconds before it took place. If that was the case, why take the messy more risky route of gunshots through a door and instead opt for a Cosby drug cocktail to knock her out and then kill her. No mess, less evidence.
 
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but I have seen others say that the garbage bags were perhaps part of a "sinister" plan on the part of OP to bag the body and throw it out.

Sounds kind of silly, especially when others have said that this alleged murder was premeditated for quite some time, not just in the seconds before it took place. If that was the case, my not take the messy more risky route of gunshots through a door and instead opt for a Cosby drug cocktail to knock her out and then kill her. No mess, less evidence.

I have been on the OP boards since June 2013 and was a bystander for sometime before that but I have never read that anyone thought it was premeditated for 'quite some time', though it is difficult to equate 'some time' with a particular period of time, nor have I heard that the black plastic bags were for some ulterior motive. A lot of people thought it was rather strange to be using plastic bags but I suspect it was to stop the blood puddling on OP's floor. I think I must have nodded off on numerous occasions, if what you are saying is correct.
 
Karyn Maughan ‏@karynmaughan 7h7 hours agoAppeal Court registrar tells me #OscarPistorius ruling expected next week or the week after. We will get a day's notice. @eNCA
Ty Giles for this update! I'm so glad to see that Karyn Maughan was interested enough in the result of the Appeal to contact an authority at the Appeal Court.I had been hoping we would get several days notice, but just knowing what to expect is a relief. Ty.
 
BIB Very strange this point. In a real accident one might have expected him to ask her something as soon as he realised she was behind the door and before breaking it down, ie Reeva, "are you badly hurt"? At that stage he had no idea he had hit her in the head or what her injuries were and she might have been able to communicate something.

Immediately after the shooting, he never called out to her at any point to see if indeed it was her in the toilet cubicle. He never called to ask where she was. She could have been on the balcony or have left the house for safety reasons. She knew how to set/unset the alarm. The more one thinks about his alibi, the more unbelievable it becomes.

It is a fact that at 20-22 minutes elapsed after the shooting (on his timing) he had called nobody at all. The Stipps heard the first sounds (according to OP the gunshots) at 02.58. His call to Stander was 20-22 minutes or so later. (Apologies I don't have Mr Fossi'ls spread sheet to hand to verify when he called Stander). If his story were to believed, he did almost nothing for around 18 minutes. Surely it should have been obvious to Masipa et al that this must be a lie. Who would leave the love of their life shut in a small cubicle behind closed doors not knowing what her injuries were? Who on earth would believe it took circa 18 minutes (the timing to the second sounds) to collect the bat and break down the door. His alibi is just so unbelievable and yet Masipa fell for it.

The defence case is shots at around 3:12 not 2:58, followed by a call to Stander at (I think) 3:19 and to Netcare a minute later. So a gap of around 7-8 minutes not 20-22 minutes.
 
The defence case is shots at around 3:12 not 2:58, followed by a call to Stander at (I think) 3:19 and to Netcare a minute later. So a gap of around 7-8 minutes not 20-22 minutes.

You really do need to look at the facts of the evidence. Roux made up several "stories" during the trial. This was just another one of them. It was impossible for the first shots to have been at 03.12. The Stipps registered the first sounds (which Roux says were the shots) at 02.58. Under cross examination by Oldwage, Mrs Stipps agreed that she was leaning over her husband to look at the clock when the shots occurred and that the clock read 03.02 but she stated their clock was always 3-4 minutes fast so the correct time was 02.58.

There are more ear witnesses for the second sounds which Roux claims was OP breaking down the door at around 03.16-03.17. The fact that he dishonestly (yes I do mean that) states the shots were 03.12 was to attempt to shorten the time between the two sets of sounds. Quite obviously he had to do this because it looked so bad for OP. Nel never agreed to Roux's timeline but did not produce one of his own. A bit shortsighted in my opinion but I think he thought he had a watertight case and didn't feel the need. He did, however, interrupt Roux to disagree with his timeline. Roux stated the second sounds were the door being broken down and Nel jumped up and stated the PT opinion was that the second sounds were the shots. It was a pure figment of Roux's imagination. How Masipa did not see through his fake timeline I do not know.

The Stipps and Johnsons had no axe to grind. None of them knew OP. To believe 03.12 (remember nobody else heard any sounds then) you would have to call these genuine people liars. They had no reason to be dishonest, none whatsoever but it is fairly obvious why OP and his DT were less than honest.

The call to Stander was 02.19 but this had nothing to do with the timing between the shots. My point there was that OP waited 20-22 minutes before calling Stander if the first sounds were the shots. There were roughly 18 minutes between the two sets of sounds.
 
BIB

According to his testimony, he didn't realize it was Reeva in the toilet until after he broke down the door so it would be impossible for him to "fetch the bat and try breaking the door down" after calling the ambulance.

this is his testimony [eic]:

[video=youtube;XmadaSpdQdI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmadaSpdQdI[/video]

10:40 into this clip

"think it was at that point mlady that the… that it first dawned upon me that the, it could be reeva that was in the bathroom, or in the toilet"

this was on his first trip back to the bedroom, just before checking behind the curtains, and well before grabbing the cricket bat


and this is his bail statement:

"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet."
 
You really do need to look at the facts of the evidence. Roux made up several "stories" during the trial. This was just another one of them. It was impossible for the first shots to have been at 03.12. The Stipps registered the first sounds (which Roux says were the shots) at 02.58. Under cross examination by Oldwage, Mrs Stipps agreed that she was leaning over her husband to look at the clock when the shots occurred and that the clock read 03.02 but she stated their clock was always 3-4 minutes fast so the correct time was 02.58.

There are more ear witnesses for the second sounds which Roux claims was OP breaking down the door at around 03.16-03.17. The fact that he dishonestly (yes I do mean that) states the shots were 03.12 was to attempt to shorten the time between the two sets of sounds. Quite obviously he had to do this because it looked so bad for OP. Nel never agreed to Roux's timeline but did not produce one of his own. A bit shortsighted in my opinion but I think he thought he had a watertight case and didn't feel the need. He did, however, interrupt Roux to disagree with his timeline. Roux stated the second sounds were the door being broken down and Nel jumped up and stated the PT opinion was that the second sounds were the shots. It was a pure figment of Roux's imagination. How Masipa did not see through his fake timeline I do not know.

The Stipps and Johnsons had no axe to grind. None of them knew OP. To believe 03.12 (remember nobody else heard any sounds then) you would have to call these genuine people liars. They had no reason to be dishonest, none whatsoever but it is fairly obvious why OP and his DT were less than honest.

The call to Stander was 02.19 but this had nothing to do with the timing between the shots. My point there was that OP waited 20-22 minutes before calling Stander if the first sounds were the shots. There were roughly 18 minutes between the two sets of sounds.

You wouldn't have to call anyone a liar to believe the shots were at around 3:12. You would just have to believe that it is possible that Mrs Stipp had either misread or misremembered the time on her alarm clock. Or that more time than she remembered had elapsed between her coughing fit (sitting up to cough, looking at the time on the clock, contemplating getting up for a drink) and hearing the first bangs. It certainly isn't impossible that the shots were fired at 3:12. Roux was clear from the time he was cross examining Dr Stipp that the defense put the gap between the sounds at around five minutes rather then nearly twenty.

If the initial shots were at 2:58, why would the Stipps have waited so long to call security? Not phoning until 18 minutes later just doesn't seem likely, IMO. And they certainly didn't give the impression in their testimonies that they felt they were on their balconies for that long. What would have prompted them to finally phone at 3:16? It wasn't the second set of bangs, as they happened while Dr Stipp was on the phone.
I don't think any witnesses described the screaming as going on for nearly twenty minutes.
 
Unfortunately we don't have the benefit of the appeal transcript so this is an aide-memoire. Apologies in advance for the length.

The key element is whether the law was correctly applied. There are two hurdles: to convince the court that it is entitled to consider the case although the trial did not end in a complete acquittal; and to establish that there were errors in law. The state wasn't happy with the factual findings of the high court and will not attack those. The focus will be on the errors in law made by Masipa.

Judge Mpati asked if Nel would have been satisfied if the high court had simply ruled that the murder charge was not proved. Nel said, no, the effect is the same – it is an acquittal on the charge of murder.

Nel and the judges discussed the Seekoei case, a principle that could determine whether or not the supreme court is able to overturn the culpable homicide verdict. Judge Majiedt said Seekoei is no longer good law; things have moved on. Nel agreed that it’s not applicable any more and so the court should make a ruling in this appeal.

Nel said Masipa was wrong to throw out circumstantial evidence by looking at it piece-by-piece, rather than as a mosaic, and that she only paid lip service to such evidence. It never became clear what attention Masipa had paid to it. The court erred to understand how to apply circumstantial evidence. If the court did not apply the principles surrounding circumstantial evidence, and ignored evidence, that’s a legal question.

Nel said Masipa was wrong to dismiss evidence about the condition of the bedroom: the fan, the duvet and the denim. This evidence showed the version given by OP could not be true. The court accepted that OP was a bad witness but yet accepted his version of events.

Judge Mhlantla said that OP could not claim a lack of intention to kill, but also rely on self-defence to justify the shooting. Nel agreed and said, “He had defences that exclude each other … The one he elected to use, the court rejected that one and gave him another one. The court should have rejected his evidence as impossible. On the objective facts, the accused cannot escape a verdict of murder”.

Nel raised the subject of gastric emptying on which there was a lot of evidence. Masipa dismissed it in her ruling as too disputed and not relevant to her verdict.

Nel moved on to the screams heard by OP’s neighbours before and after the gunshots. He said he wouldn't talk about these because the judge made a ruling that they were not credible, and so he can’t go over that in this court. However the judges were quite keen to talk about the screams. Nel confirmed it was OP’s contention that any screams heard before the gunshots came from him.

Nel insisted he was not arguing for dolus directus (premeditated murder) when pressed by one of the judges. He wants a finding of dolus eventualis.

Mpati asked whether it matters who – Reeva or an intruder – was behind the closed cubicle door. For the purposes of the appeal, Nel said it does not. There was a criminal intent to bring about the demise of whoever was inside the toilet cubicle. Baartman asked if this is because of the number of shots fired (four)? Nel agreed.

Nel and the judges agreed that even if the supreme court decides that OP ought to be convicted of murder, the case would need to be referred back to the high court – and to Masipa – for sentence. He said neither State nor defence would be keen for a retrial. “Neither of us have the stomach for it”. “But if that’s the only way of correcting an error, that’s what we will have to do”. His preference would be for this court to substitute a conviction of murder.

The judges had a few questions. Isn’t his argument for dolus eventualis an issue of fact, not of law, given that the principle of dolus eventualis is inferred from facts? Nel disagreed – the misapplication of the principle is an issue of law. The court correctly defined dolus eventualis but applied it incorrectly. He said the trial court stated on two occasions that OP could not have foreseen that he would shoot Reeva because he thought she was in the bedroom. Judge Leach says this is a misapplication of dolus eventualis – the issue of whether it was Reeva in the cubicle is wrong.
 
Many thanks for this. I will see what I can find but the links I really need are in spreadsheets giving the time, as far as can be judged, of the timing of the shots, shouts and screams, calling security etc for every person involved in giving testimony.

Mr Fossil kindly posted the link, I think in the last Discussion Thread (65). I will have to wade through that to find them.

https://cc11313.wordpress.com/

This link has all the older links:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...60-14-9-12-the-appeal&p=11284252#post11284252
 
Roux’s argument – the questions posed by the State are not questions of law, and so cannot be considered by this court. Masipa did not ignore the circumstantial evidence, as Nel alleges. This was dealt with in her ruling, Roux says, “every aspect”.

Roux says it was not possible for the deceased to have screamed after the shots. The high court was right to dismiss evidence about the screaming. Testimony that a woman was screaming was incorrect and the judge was right to find it unreliable.

The bench wants clarification that Reeva had locked herself inside the toilet cubicle, and had her phone with her. Roux said he would have locked the door if he had heard someone scream (as Pistorius said he did, telling the supposed intruder to get out of his house). The screams have no relevance to dolus eventualis, Roux said – they are relevant only if the state argues that Reeva was running away from OP during an argument.

His argument is that the court is not entitled to overturn the original verdict. “The state needed to find, or to construct, questions of law from factual findings”

Judge Majiedt wondered why Roux had not dealt with the evidence of Capt. Mangena, the police ballistics expert who testified that Reeva was standing close behind the door when she was shot. Majiedt says the firing of the four bullets were aimed in a direction that could only have caused great damage. Judge Leach points out that the very restricted size of the cubicle meant there was little chance of survival for anyone inside it. He said, “There was no place to hide in there … If you put four shots through that door you must surely see you will shoot someone. Reeva had “nowhere to hide”. Judge Baartman pushed Roux on why four shots were necessary. Roux conceded that injury or death was a “possible consequence”.

Roux contended that the court cannot consider the state’s appeal if it relies on points of fact, rather than points of law. He said, “A person’s intention is a question of fact”.

Leach told Roux that if a trial judge fails to apply herself to all the evidence, that is a misapplication of law. He asked Roux, “Doesn’t that give you considerable difficulty?”

Leach read from Masipa’s judgment about the shooting. He asked Roux, “Is that not an incorrect application of the law regarding dolus eventualis?”. He
said that Masipa’s application of dolus eventualis applies only to whether Reeva was the person inside the cubicle. “Isn’t that a wrong interpretation of the law?” Roux was flustered as he looked for the relevant page in his notes but said he does not agree. He said the court found that OP genuinely believed he was in danger and that Reeva was in the bedroom. “That can’t be ignored”.

Leach was still not happy. Masipa defined dolus eventualis correctly, he repeated, but she then failed to apply it to anything other than Reeva being behind the door. “Her analysis of dolus eventualis, it seems to me, was wrong. The issue was he knew a person was in the cubicle”. Roux interjected, “That’s not really the issue”. Leach replied, “Of course it’s the issue”.

Leach asked, “When he fired the bullets did he know there was a person behind the door?” The issue is whether OP foresaw the consequences. Leach said that Masipa’s ruling was that he did not because he did not know that it was Reeva. His view is that Masipa’s interpretation is legally wrong.

Roux said OP believed his life was in danger. He thought he was firing shots at an intruder. He said Masipa’s comments on dolus eventualis relate to whether OP foresaw that it could have been Reeva in the cubicle. Roux says, he did not.
It makes sense to him that Masipa ruled she could not find dolus eventualis because OP genuinely thought it was an intruder in the cubicle. But why does the identity matter, the bench wants to know. Did OP think he was entitled to shoot at whoever was behind the door? Roux said that identity doesn’t come into it because it never entered OP’s mind that the person behind the door was Reeva. The judges are pushing Roux very hard.
 
Leach said Masipa found OP to be a “shocking” and “unreliable” witness, but then went on to accept his claim that he honestly believed his life was in danger, without evidence to support it. Leach said, “He was armed with a firearm and went to confront the noise". Roux asks, “Do we think he is lying?”

Roux insisted there was a factual finding by the trial court that OP genuinely believed his life was in danger. “Show me”, says Judge Leach. Roux frantically looked through his notes to find the reference. Leach said it does not support the defence argument that Masipa made a factual finding that OP genuinely believed there was an intruder. Leach said that OP didn’t know if it was a 12-year-old child or a man with a submachine gun. Roux replied that the fact that OP was wrong is something else. Leach asked if OP believed that he was entitled to shoot in those circumstances. Roux insisted that he thought his life was in danger. He was vulnerable and on his stumps.

Roux said Masipa determined that Pistorius was wrong – this is why she found him guilty of culpable homicide, but Masipa did accept that he genuinely thought he was in danger and that he believed Reeva was in the bedroom. He argued that is a factual finding, and given that, “Why would he just want to murder someone in the toilet, knowing she’s in the bedroom?”. He argued that in that context, Masipa’s finding on dolus eventualis was correct. Leach pushed Roux to concede that Masipa’s findings on the identity issue were wrong. Roux would not concede. He said, “Once you accept that factual finding, you cannot find OP guilty of murder. Leach asked, “Do you accept this was an incorrect finding?” Roux said, “I can't make that concession”. Leach replied, “We're here to argue, not concede”.

Leach asked Roux another question about Seekoei which covers the State’s right to appeal to the supreme court. Roux said it’s not part of the defence case and that there was general agreement earlier that it is no longer a useful law. However, he raised the question of double jeopardy – is this appeal giving the state a second chance after it failed to get the verdict it wanted?

Majiedt asked Roux why the defence submits that – if the appeal court finds the law was misapplied – this court cannot substitute its own verdict. “Why … in the interest of justice can this court not give the judgment that ought to have been given?” Roux said the defence argument is that there would need to be a retrial. Majiedt said a retrial is not an ideal option, “given all that has gone before”. The judge said he doesn’t understand Roux’s argument that this court could not reach its own verdict.

Majiedt said the court has heard all the evidence. If it finds for the state, why would it be in anyone’s interest – including the accused – to have a retrial? "Why shouldn’t this court substitute its own verdict?" Judge Mhlantla weighed in with more legal precedent on when and why the appeal court can substitute its own verdict. Leach too. Roux was being pressed very hard.

Roux wanted to talk about the “two Oscars” – one the famous athlete, the other an anxious, vulnerable person, and referred to a report by a clinical psychologist, following a 30-day mental health evaluation. Roux said OP’s state of mind is key. He should not have fired four shots. He should not have fired shots at all. “But case law tells us we cannot isolate the actions from who the person is”. Baartman said, “We can’t simply give everyone with an anxiety disorder the right to shoot”. Roux agrees and said OP is being punished. OP was “scared, really scared. Why would he have fired the shots? There is no reason unless he is genuinely afraid for his life”.

Roux has concluded his argument.

Leach asked Nel if Masipa’s finding that OP believed there was an intruder binds the current court. Nel said that the finding was wrongly made.

Leach asked was there a genuine threat, and what was the alternative action. Nel said that the trial court did not ask or answer these questions.
 
Excellent summary from my recollection. Thank you Judgejudi.
 
If Frank was to "fess up" and his version matched that of OP's, I'm pretty sure there would be many on this board that would not be able to accept it and would assume he had been bought off.

Imagine the likelihood of that happening.
 
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