CA - 14 killed in San Bernardino mass shooting, 2 Dec 2015 #4

[BarryW]

Point of clarification and it's an important one:

I listened to a radio show out of the Bay Area (KGO) today and they had on the air for 2 hours a noted Muslim scholar...i.e an expert on the faith and the Quran.

He emphatically said (over and over, essentially) all these terrorists are NOT practicing the principles of Muslim as written in the Quran and as observed by real Muslims worldwide. The Quran is very clear on killing: killing one innocent person is the same as killing all people and it is not allowed--it is absolutely forbidden. It is an abomination, a sin.

He and other Muslim leaders have spoken out against every one of these terrorist acts. These terrorists may think and call themselves 'Muslims,' but what they are practicing and what they are doing is not the Muslim religion. Let me repeat for the hard of understanding: this is not about the religion, this is about a bunch of goons/monsters who are using the name of this religion but are not really practicing it. Even Obama pointed this out in his speech, btw.

This expert also mentioned a download to a free copy of the Quran since people were asking to look things up.

There are many parts of the Quran that are violent and invite jihad. To balance that statement there are many parts of the Bible that are violent. Difference is, thankfully there are few Christians who don't pick/choose what parts of the Bible they wish to embrace. Not too many use the eye for an eye motto anymore. And for moderate Muslims they too embrace the more peaceful passages from their Quran. But, for those radicalized members they find the worst possible passages to follow, and they follow them to a T.

After 9/11 I found myself strongly arguing on the side of moderate Muslims, often my opinion was a minority opinion. I find it more and more difficult to speak so strongly right now. I'm watching, and frankly reeling at where our easy access into Canada/US has got us. Yes, I know about the home growns. That is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about a culture so very different than ours that is being shoved into the daily lives of Europeans. We are not that far behind if we don't stop and think.

And everybody has heard this before, but I think it bears repeating at this point in time...you know that if you and your family moved to the middle east and started demanding that they turn their world around to accommodate you and your western ways you'd end up in serious legal trouble. If saying that is not pc, I really don't care about that anymore.

 

[bluesneakers]

There are many parts of the Quran that are violent and invite jihad. To balance that statement there are many parts of the Bible that are violent. Difference is, thankfully there are few Christians who don't pick/choose what parts of the Bible they wish to embrace. Not too many use the eye for an eye motto anymore. And for moderate Muslims they too embrace the more peaceful passages from their Quran. But, for those radicalized members they find the worst possible passages to follow, and they follow them to a T.

After 9/11 I found myself strongly arguing on the side of moderate Muslims, often my opinion was a minority opinion. I find it more and more difficult to speak so strongly right now. I'm watching, and frankly reeling at where our easy access into Canada/US has got us. Yes, I know about the home growns. That is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about a culture so very different than ours that is being shoved into the daily lives of Europeans. We are not that far behind if we don't stop and think.

And everybody has heard this before, but I think it bears repeating at this point in time...you know that if you and your family moved to the middle east and started demanding that they turn their world around to accommodate you and your western ways you'd end up in serious legal trouble. If saying that is not pc, I really don't care about that anymore.

What is the difference between moderate Muslim and Muslim?

 

[BarryW]

I was just channel surfing. One of the Lawyers for the Family David Chesley is speaking. Lordy!!!!! skip CNN. All I caught was Mom/Grandma never went into the garage. Oh that makes me believe she knew nothing. Not!

I hope they can find her fingerprints in there somewhere.

 

[Mindmatters]

I just wanted to give a big shoutout to Boytwnmom for her fantastic posts on the Radical Islamism. :tyou:

In my life there is nothing more satisfying, important or powerful than knowledge. I consider myself fairly well read on this topic and yet I always learn something new from her posts

So, it is with sincerity that I extend my deep appreciation to you Boytwnmom.:loveyou:

 

[EllieBee]

How close are you to break? Have you heard of any harassment going on in your area?

I hope they're okay. Can they keep up with class from home?

. I teach preschool. They will be fine. At least academically. I just worry that their families are afraid.

Like I said, it may just be that those kiddos are sick.

I have two Muslim families and got voicemail on both calls. But the parents (all four) are physicians, so they were probably still on rounds/ in surgery.

I am gonna hope that it is all good. I can't help but to feel sorry for them, though, even if public persecution is not the reason. The vitriol is out there, and people are so mean. . These are good people and pillars of our community.

 

[Gigi-G]

Do you have a link? I keep hearing about these No Go Zones yet no one can prove they exist. I posted several links debunking the story. Those "certain areas" are not what you think they are.

I think it's what each person might understand and interpret as a 'no go area'
For example: If you're holidaying abroad in unfamiliar surroundings. If upon asking places to visit. You may get told "oh don't go to such and such area....its a no go area."
When asked why... it may just be a rough part of town. But you are more likely to be mugged or robbed there...

There are certain areas of my own city I wouldn't go to.

Places in London I certainly wouldn't go to after dark. Etc.

 

[EllieBee]

I have noticed driving thru my city I really dont see any of our Muslim Community out and about. That has been so since the Paris attack. Maybe I am reading too much into it but I did note usual places and times I saw none.

I wonder about this myself. I am missing Muslim students since last week. But then, it is also cold and flu season. Hopefully I will know more tonight.

Not that it matters, but both families are rather "western" in dress and manner. But if that would make them less of a target, I would be happy.

 

[BarryW]

What is the difference between moderate Muslim and Muslim?

Muslim, to me, means ALL Muslims. Some are moderate. Some are radical. And some are in between. They are all Muslims. And within these groups, there will be some who will say others are "not as Muslim".

Just as Christians (and the many denominations). Some are moderate. Some are radical. And some are in between. And I know Christians who feel that other Christians really aren't.

In the "radical zone", in my opinion, the danger to others is much more severe in the Muslim world than in the Christian world. This is what this massive thread is about, radical Muslims.

You know what, I really even hate that this conversation is here (not this specific one, I mean in general). I liked it better when I easily and strongly stood up for the moderate Muslims, before I truly understood how very crafty the radicals are at pretending they are not radical, until they "come out". My world view has shifted tremendously, and I am entitled to feel this way.

 

[MsJosie]

The other med is used to treat ADD.

It strikes me as weird too. Were they old prescriptions? Did they want to be extra calm and focused while assembling pipe bombs? I don't get it either.

Who were the doctor(s)...who was the medication for?

 

[bluesneakers]

I think it's what each person might understand and interpret as a 'no go area'
For example: If you're holidaying abroad in unfamiliar surroundings. If upon asking places to visit. You may get told "oh don't go to such and such area....its a no go area."
When asked why... it may just be a rough part of town. But you are more likely to be mugged or robbed there...

There are certain areas of my own city I wouldn't go to.

Places in London I certainly wouldn't go to after dark. Etc.

I'm referring to the Sharia Law zones/areas/cities people keep bringing up. I live in a big city and there are places I avoid after dark, but not because there are Muslims there blocking my entry or because I might get caned for having a drink.

 

[MsJosie]

Do you think the reason muslims fear speaking out against radical islam is because of ISIS?

Relatives back 'home' could get backlash.

 

[ninij9]

Remember when not long ago, we had people doing the 'knockout game' and just walking up to unsuspecting people and hitting them in the face, sometimes doing great injury? So what happens if we start getting people walked up to, and being stabbed or throat cut, like happened in the UK yesterday?
Something needs to be done NOW.
Sorry, but this is very serious. We need to respond in the same serious manner.
All MOO

That attack was horrifying. I cannot get it out of my head. Doesnt the Crazy Caliph of ISIS tell followers if they cannot make the trip to join them that they should attempt a beheading and send them the video? I know I read that somewhere.
When you have to choose between atrocities, I would prefer to be shot or blown up before beheading. Beheading to me is the most beastly, unspeakable, horror.

I would like to add that worrying about this kind of assault will also add to Anti Muslim sentiment. Some middle eastern looking guy sits next to you on a bus...I'm going to admit how shallow and profiling I am because I would probably get up. Fear is terrible.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[katydid23]

Do you have a link? I keep hearing about these No Go Zones yet no one can prove they exist. I posted several links debunking the story. Those "certain areas" are not what you think they are.

Snopes is not a trustworthy site, imo.

And I do think many of those places are what I think they are. My daughter described being in Seine/St. Denise. And she is half black, and does not stick out as being a white/westerner. But even then, she and her friend were being harassed by the local men and felt very threatened because they had jeans and levi jackets on instead of more traditional garb. They even bought scarves to cover their heads because they were frightened.

I do not see that happening in Paris or other major tourist areas. But certain 'NoGo' zones do have a high Muslim population in which they feel they have control of the 'rules.' JMO

 

[EllieBee]

Do you think the reason muslims fear speaking out against radical islam is because of ISIS?

Nah, I mean I don't think so. I don't see many Christians speaking out against abortion clinic bombers or other radical Christian violence.

And in a way, I get it. To speak out about it can potentially tie you to that faction even in your opposition.

I cannot blame Muslims for not decrying their radical terrorist groups anymore than I can blame moderate Christians for not being vocal against radical Christian terrorists.

 

[Montjoy]

There is no way the repressive ways of conservative Islam can co-exist in the long term with free and open democratic societies nor can conservative Muslims under the current understanding of Islam adapt to living in those societies.

rsbm

Would you say the same about conservative Christianity or Judaism?

Can a democratic society like the US, with religious freedom being protected by the First Amendment, prohibit such religious beliefs and still call itself a democratic society that honors the rights and freedoms enshrined in the Constitution?

 

[Sweet Fox]

A $28,500 deposit was made to Syed Farook’s bank account from WebBank.com. WebBank.com is located in Utah.

The SUV the killers rented had a Utah license plate. Coincidence???

Also in the days before the shooting, there were at least three transfers of $5,000 that appear to be to Farook’s mother.

Read more here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/12/07/bank-records-show-28500-deposit-to-syed-farooks-account-two-weeks-before-shooting-source-says.html

 

[Boytwnmom]

And this ignores the larger problem that also needs to be addressed. What is being taught, shown, encouraged in Islam?

I found this 2007 Report from the NYPD illuminating:

While the threat from overseas remains, many of the terrorist attacks or thwarted plots against cities in Europe, Canada, Australia and the United States have been conceptualized and planned by local residents/citizens who sought to attack their country of residence. The majority of these individuals began as unremarkable-they had unremarkable jobs, had lived unremarkable lives and had little, if any criminal history.

Understanding this trend and the radicalization process in the West that drives unremarkable‖ people to become terrorists is vital for developing effective counter strategies.

This report recognized the important underlying aspect:

Jihadi-Salafi Ideology
What motivates young men and women, born or living in the West, to carry out ―autonomous jihad‖ via acts of terrorism against their host countries? The answer is ideology. Ideology is the bedrock and catalyst for
radicalization. It defines the conflict, guides movements, identifies the issues, drives recruitment, and is the basis for action. In many cases, ideology also determines target selection and informs what will be done and how it will be carried out.The religious/political ideology responsible for driving this radicalization process
is called jihadist or jihadi-Salafi ideology and it has served as the inspiration for all or nearly all of the
homegrown groups including the Madrid 2004 bombers, the Hofstad Group, London’s 7/7 bombers, the Australians arrested as part of Operation Pendennis in 2005 and the Toronto 18, arrested in June 2006.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_information/NYPD_Report-Radicalization_in_the_West.pdf

This recognizes that there is a religious & political underpinning-radical Islam which is the most exported and fastest growing and it infiltrates even moderate Muslim mosques resulting in polling data which indicates increasing adoption of more radical views which see Islam as incompatible with western ideas of democracy, freedom and human rights.

Here is a 2004 article about the Muslim Brotherhood which is intimately involved in mosque building and providing Islamic materials to mosques in the US and Europe. They established the Muslim Students Associations now present in almost every US college and university.

So, in 2004 in Chicago:

At a summer camp last year in Wisconsin run by the Chicago chapter of MAS, teens received a 2-inch-thick packet of material that included a discussion of the Brotherhood's philosophy and detailed instructions on how to win converts.

Part of the Chicago chapter's Web site is devoted to teens. It includes reading materials that say Muslims have a duty to help form Islamic governments worldwide and should be prepared to take up arms to do so.

One passage states that "until the nations of the world have functionally Islamic governments, every individual who is careless or lazy in working for Islam is sinful." Another one says that Western secularism and materialism are evil and that Muslims should "pursue this evil force to its own lands" and "invade its Western heartland."

In suburban Rosemont, Ill., several thousand people attended MAS' annual conference in 2002 at the village's convention center. One speaker said, "We may all feel emotionally attached to the goal of an Islamic state" in America, but it would have to wait because of the modest Muslim population. "We mustn't cross hurdles we can't jump yet."

Federal authorities say they are scrutinizing the Brotherhood but acknowledge that they have been slow to understand the group.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/chi-0409190261sep19-story.html

So, ultimately all I can say is something like this guy said back in 2011. And think of how much worse things are today. ISIS holds actual territory and has established, according to them, the Caliphate. They have sent the message to Muslim worldwide to support the Caliphate as Islam requires them to do.

Here is the unsettling but sedulously avoided truth: What radicalizes Muslims is Islam.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/269080/coordinates-radicalism-andrew-c-mccarthy

Does the UK have moderate muslims that are coordinated, highly visible, and vocally outspoken in opposition to what these radicalized islamists do? For instance, when an attack occurs to they do a presser speaking out against the terrorists? TIA

 

[bluesneakers]

Nah, I mean I don't think so. I don't see many Christians speaking out against abortion clinic bombers or other radical Christian violence.

And in a way, I get it. To speak out about it can potentially tie you to that faction even in your opposition.

I cannot blame Muslims for not decrying their radical terrorist groups anymore than I can blame moderate Christians for not being vocal against radical Christian terrorists.

I think that might be it. For the most part I see Muslims speaking out against terrorists (like all of us do), but if they don't I assume they have their own reasons, and like you said we don't expect that from others.

 

[bluesneakers]

rsbm

Would you say the same about conservative Christianity or Judaism?

Can a democratic society like the US, with religious freedom being protected by the First Amendment, prohibit such religious beliefs and still call itself a democratic society that honors the rights and freedoms enshrined in the Constitution?

And Amish, Mennonite, and FLDS...

 

[bluesneakers]

A $28,500 deposit was made to Syed Farook’s bank account from WebBank.com. WebBank.com is located in Utah.

The SUV the killers rented had a Utah license plate. Coincidence???

Also in the days before the shooting, there were at least three transfers of $5,000 that appear to be to Farook’s mother.

Read more here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/12/07/bank-records-show-28500-deposit-to-syed-farooks-account-two-weeks-before-shooting-source-says.html

I think coincidence because sometimes when you rent a car it will have out-of-state plates, but do we know where they rented it? Were they in Utah? And where was all that money coming from?