Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery

[Soulmagent]

He was not in line for $36 million dollar payout. Just because a plaintiff makes a demand in a civil complaint for a certain amount of money doesn't mean he's going to get it. In fact, in the vast majority of cases, they don't.

And no, he didn't spend 18 years in prison for his previous crimes but he did spend time in prison for them. Six years for the incident with the rifle, he was sentenced to two years for the robbery but only served 10 months in jail for it but then it took him a mere 5 months to commit the cat crime and get sent to prison for 9 months. So, that's roughly eight years of prison sentences completely separate from the rape. Additionally, those three crimes happened within a fairly short time span given that part of the time in between them he was incarcerated. He committed a crime, spent 10 months in jail, went 5 months before committing another and then going to prison for 9 month. Then, it was about two years before the incident with the woman and rifle (which is technically two crimes because he was a felon in possession of a firearm.) Given the escalation in his crimes and the time span, why is it so hard to think he'd be able to go about two years out of prison before re-offending? To me it fits his previous pattern.

Additionally, even if he didn't kill Teresa, he should still be in prison today. He was sentenced to ten years for being yet again a felon in possession of a firearm so with or without the murder, he would be in prison until 2017.

Actually without the TH case ,the gun issue would not be an issue because they would not have probable cause to enter his property.Which if he shot TH why was the gun there ,he would have known LE was coming. He didn't apear to know though .It looks as if he had no idea she was missing until Nov3 .

 

[stephsb]

Yes, there is an actual dead woman. That's what makes this crime so incredibly DIFFERENT to anything Steven did before.

No, the sexting stuff is not what Kratz is condemned for. How about that disgraceful press conference? Leading a witness in a lie on the witness stand? Managing to advance two theories regarding one case in order to secure two convictions?

Agree if Steven committed this crime, it is different from his past convictions and nothing excuses Kratz's behavior. He should have been disbarred. He gives me chills.


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[stephsb]

Actually without the TH case ,the gun issue would not be an issue because they would not have probable cause to enter his property.Which if he shot TH why was the gun there ,he would have known LE was coming. He didn't apear toknow though .It looks as if he had no idea she was missing until Nov3 .

He let investigators into his home, and he was found to be in possession of a firearm, which he knew violated his probation. No sympathy for him on that. He could have refused a search or not possessed a gun, he decided to break the law.


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[LemonMousse]

If he had taken the stand in his own defense, he would have had to reveal is prior felonies. I imagine that had a large part in why he didn't. The prosecution would have impeached his prior record for credibility.

The reason people keep mentioning the cat is because of the animal abuse and arson, two of the best signs of future homicidal tendencies. I have never said his past criminal behavior makes him guilty of murder, but I think it makes him a great suspect. Along w. CA, EA, and ST, all frequently inhabiting the property, all prior violent crimes like Steven. I have from the beginning asked for all of them to be investigated- they all certainly should have from the beginning, especially CA with no alibi.

Frankly, I am sick of people representing Steven as this great person turning his life around with no motive for this crime. This guy was a felon, convicted of violent crimes, just like his brothers. He deserved to be investigated as a suspect. That doesn't excuse the poor investigation and clear framing by LE, and it certainly does not excuse what happened to Brendan, but I don't understand for a second why this is a "motiveless crime." Any of those salvage yard residents could have had a motive, just because we don't know it doesn't mean there was none.


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I genuinely cannot see anywhere that people are saying Steven was a great person trying to turn his life around. Absolutely nowhere.

A single incident of anything is not a predictor of future homicidal behaviour....it would have to be a pattern to be that. It wasn't. And I don't think the cat thing = arson, for goodness sake!

Kratz himself said in his opening (go and listen) "Past behaviour AND the exoneration have nothing to do with this case". And since Steven in fact did not take the stand then I cannot see the point in saying, "Oh, well, he'd have had to talk about it if he did". Well, he didn't.

Plenty of people are in prison for burglary, animal cruelty and assault. How many end up as murderers? Not many.

Past behaviour speaks to character, certainly. It strongly suggests future lawbreaking....but specifically murder? No.

 

[stephsb]

Check out Reddit, I've seen it posted repeatedly. It's also been posted plenty of times on Facebook. Was not directing it at you or anyone else personally. I have seen the notion proposed numerous times that he was out of prison turning his life around and looking for a big payout, so he had no motive. That is simply nonsense.

The FBI has done studies about the Homicidal Triad, and some of its greatest criminal behaviorists like Douglas and Ressler believe in it firmly. They define arson as fire-setting behavior, they do not use the legal definition. Never did I say this made him a murderer, nor did I say burglars, animal abusers, and people who commit violent acts all become murderers. I simply said it was a predictor of future homicidal behavior, and led to Avery being considered a suspect in this case. I have repeatedly said I don't think he's the best suspect on that property.

Lastly, I don't see where there isn't a pattern of criminal behavior from Avery. He commits burglary, escapes prison and gets 5 years probation. Violates that when he burns the family cat alive, does time. While on probation for that, he assaults a female relative with a deadly weapon- a firearm he possess illegally. He serves a 6 year concurrent sentence with his wrongful conviction. Once released, he continues to violate his probation by possessing firearms, and violated a 72 hour injunction resulting from a disorderly conduct charge between he and his fiancée, Jodi.

All I have been trying to point out with this is there was reason for him to be a viable suspect, and he was not the upstanding citizen people have tried to portray him as. I have said repeatedly this suspect list includes his brothers and ST, and have criticized the investigation on this and many other points. I have NEVER said Stevens behavior makes him a murderer, and I never will.


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[Soulmagent]

He let investigators into his home, and he was found to be in possession of a firearm, which he knew violated his probation. No sympathy for him on that. He could have refused a search or not possessed a gun, he decided to break the law.


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Agree ,he had a gun. However he was not caught until he let them in to search for a missing girl.So this case would not exist it the other one didn't . That all I was pointing out.

 

[stephsb]

Fair enough, unless he got caught for something else. He always could have hid the gun. Just wanted to make the point that is a relatively serious charge, especially when there are repeat offenses. He should have known better, but he didn't, or didn't care.


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[Random-me]

Due to the dismal investigation, lack of credible evidence such as blood etc and the fact that police clearly wanted SA for the crime, it is hard to determine his guilt or innocence.

They both deserve a new trial however due to actions at the time, a lot of evidence would have been missed or tainted so sadly there will never be justice for Teresa

 

[LemonMousse]

Check out Reddit, I've seen it posted repeatedly. It's also been posted plenty of times on Facebook. Was not directing it at you or anyone else personally. I have seen the notion proposed numerous times that he was out of prison turning his life around and looking for a big payout, so he had no motive. That is simply nonsense.

The FBI has done studies about the Homicidal Triad, and some of its greatest criminal behaviorists like Douglas and Ressler believe in it firmly. They define arson as fire-setting behavior, they do not use the legal definition. Never did I say this made him a murderer, nor did I say burglars, animal abusers, and people who commit violent acts all become murderers. I simply said it was a predictor of future homicidal behavior, and led to Avery being considered a suspect in this case. I have repeatedly said I don't think he's the best suspect on that property.

Lastly, I don't see where there isn't a pattern of criminal behavior from Avery. He commits burglary, escapes prison and gets 5 years probation. Violates that when he burns the family cat alive, does time. While on probation for that, he assaults a female relative with a deadly weapon- a firearm he possess illegally. He serves a 6 year concurrent sentence with his wrongful conviction. Once released, he continues to violate his probation by possessing firearms, and violated a 72 hour injunction resulting from a disorderly conduct charge between he and his fiancée, Jodi.

All I have been trying to point out with this is there was reason for him to be a viable suspect, and he was not the upstanding citizen people have tried to portray him as. I have said repeatedly this suspect list includes his brothers and ST, and have criticized the investigation on this and many other points. I have NEVER said Stevens behavior makes him a murderer, and I never will.


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I have read Reddit. I have not once seen anyone say he's a great guy. Not once. You seem to be arguing against a position that no one has taken. I don't bother with Facebook...it's hardly known to be an arena of sensible discussion.

The thing with any Triad is that there are three sides...here you have ONE instance of ONE side. Arson is a legal term referring to an illegal act....any other use of it is nonsensical.

I know it suits your argument to pretend that the cat thing was arson, but the fire was already there and would still have been there even if it had not been subsequently used to kill the cat.

Do you think the person who burned the corpse committed arson? Odd that Steven has never been charged or convicted of arson, huh? Don't you think he needs to be in order for you to argue the Triad thing?

Of course there is a criminal pattern of behaviour from Avery. But there is no pattern of animal cruelty or arson which there needs to be if you're going to continue with your argument that his past behaviours are good predictors of a homicidal future!

He never "escaped" prison...what are you on about?

No one sensible thinks he's a lovely law abiding guy. But absolutely nothing in his past should make anyone think a later murder by him was always on the cards.

And yes...he was a viable suspect. But sorry...if you're suggesting it was because of the burglary and cat thing, then.....what???? How many people in that family, let alone the county have previous convictions of a similar nature? None of them were flagged up, were they?

He was one of the last people to see her - that's what flagged him up. Couple that with the institutional hatred the sherriff's department had for him, and their belief that exoneration or not he was still guilty of the rape, and that's what had them set their sights on him so firmly.

Steven Avery is a credible suspect. So is Earl Avery, Chuck Avery and Scott Tadych. They weren't properly investigated and if they had been there might have been a very different outcome. Although, equally, there might not.

EDIT: Just came back to add....apologies if my posts to you seem sneery. It's not intentional. I am respectfully disagreeing SA may well be guilty...he's certainly high up my list of suspects.

 

[ziggy]

I think Steve Avery could be the type of person with the propensity to commit this type of crime. In this case, however, the evidence just does not add up and I do believe the County Sheriff and Deputies were seriously chaffed that they were being hauled into depositions and having their integrity challenged. So I think someone else caused the death of TH, and that evidence was planted by LE as insurance and to put the Averys in their place once and for all.

The DNA from the bullet bugs me too. Her DNA? It's obviously a bullet they believed went through her - no blood or tissue? And only her DNA? None his from his sweaty grubby hands when he loaded it? That probably should have been inadmissible due to the contamination. Sooooo many questions! Definitely needs a new trial. And Brenden - his sentence should be vacated. That's the MOST tragic part of the story.

 

[LemonMousse]

Whether Steven is actually inncocent or not is interesting to discuss but was neither the point of the documentry nor the most concerning thing about this whole issue.

Even if he is factually guilty, he should still not have been found guilty. The fact that he was should trouble us all.

Very rarely is there slam dunk proof that anyone committed the crime that they are charged with. We are not omniscient beings, not psychics or clairvoyants...so we can't KNOW. The law, therefore, has tried to come up with a way to make a fair determination. It's willing to risk guilty people going free from time to time in order to protect an innocent person from being convicted.

Presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt are supposed to be tools to facilitate this....and, it seems to me, that they often don't work. Usually because juries don't really understand the issues.

There was a viable alternative to Steven Avery killing Theresa....a narrative that could be reasonably true given the evidence. The holes in the State's case were big enough to see daylight through.

This SHOULD have been enough to have a not guilty verdict returned. I think people assume that not guilty = didn't do it. It doesn't mean that...it means that the case against him has not been proven.

The case against Steven was not proven, IMO and he should not have been convicted.

 

[stephsb]

I have read Reddit. I have not once seen anyone say he's a great guy. Not once. You seem to be arguing against a position that no one has taken. I don't bother with Facebook...it's hardly known to be an arena of sensible discussion.

The thing with any Triad is that there are three sides...here you have ONE instance of ONE side. Arson is a legal term referring to an illegal act....any other use of it is nonsensical.

I know it suits your argument to pretend that the cat thing was arson, but the fire was already there and would still have been there even if it had not been subsequently used to kill the cat.

Do you think the person who burned the corpse committed arson? Odd that Steven has never been charged or convicted of arson, huh? Don't you think he needs to be in order for you to argue the Triad thing?

Of course there is a criminal pattern of behaviour from Avery. But there is no pattern of animal cruelty or arson which there needs to be if you're going to continue with your argument that his past behaviours are good predictors of a homicidal future!

He never "escaped" prison...what are you on about?

No one sensible thinks he's a lovely law abiding guy. But absolutely nothing in his past should make anyone think a later murder by him was always on the cards.

And yes...he was a viable suspect. But sorry...if you're suggesting it was because of the burglary and cat thing, then.....what???? How many people in that family, let alone the county have previous convictions of a similar nature? None of them were flagged up, were they?

He was one of the last people to see her - that's what flagged him up. Couple that with the institutional hatred the sherriff's department had for him, and their belief that exoneration or not he was still guilty of the rape, and that's what had them set their sights on him so firmly.

Steven Avery is a credible suspect. So is Earl Avery, Chuck Avery and Scott Tadych. They weren't properly investigated and if they had been there might have been a very different outcome. Although, equally, there might not.

Sorry, I should have worded it escaped a prison sentence- he took a plea in order to get 5 years probation and AVOID prison, if he could stay out of trouble. He couldn't. I'm on my iPhone and see now that sentence was extremely confusing. He never escaped prison, you are absolutely correct.

Since Facebook doesn't lead to credible discussions, and you've apparently read every post on Reddit and can say that has NEVER been argued, then we don't need to discuss this further. If you don't find the FBI's research credible, and you don't think animal abuse is a precursor to future homicidal behavior, then I respectfully disagree. Nowhere does the homicidal triad mention pattern of animal abuse- and how are you know he DIDNT shown a pattern of abuse? Animal abuse alone by and by itself is now considered by the FBI as a violent crime that they do detailed reporting on. The Milwaukee journal sentinel reported on new standards of reporting on animal abuse that are required by the DOJ, the purpose being prevention of violence in the community. Again, I never argued that this made him a murderer, just a viable suspect. Also, Avery was not-guilty on the mutilation of a corpse charge, so no, i dont think he deserves an arson charge. Again, the FBI does not use the same definition as the statutory definition used by Wisconsin.

Again, the entire last paragraph is essentially what I have been arguing the entire time. I never said his prior convictions were the only determination of him being a suspect. Obviously Manitowoc County had their eyes on him from the beginning, and I agree they planted evidence. They compromised the investigation by never investigating his brothers and ST, and focusing all their attention on Steven. They tried to find evidence to fit the suspect and coerced a minor into a garbage confession. Their behavior is disgusting, and none of them should have jobs. I've never called Avery a murderer, and I personally think there is a better suspect than him for this crime.


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[stephsb]

I think Steve Avery could be the type of person with the propensity to commit this type of crime. In this case, however, the evidence just does not add up and I do believe the County Sheriff and Deputies were seriously chaffed that they were being hauled into depositions and having their integrity challenged. So I think someone else caused the death of TH, and that evidence was planted by LE as insurance and to put the Averys in their place once and for all.

The DNA from the bullet bugs me too. Her DNA? It's obviously a bullet they believed went through her - no blood or tissue? And only her DNA? None his from his sweaty grubby hands when he loaded it? That probably should have been inadmissible due to the contamination. Sooooo many questions! Definitely needs a new trial. And Brenden - his sentence should be vacated. That's the MOST tragic part of the story.

Could not agree more about Brendan. Good god, the fact that they even brought charges after they tried and convicted Avery on a different fact pattern for the same crime is just beyond comprehension. And then Kratz has the nerve to give an interview to People mag and say "he feels sorry for Brendan, because he wouldn't be in prison if not for his uncle" More like he wouldn't be in prison if not for incompetent investigators and a prosecutor who is out for blood and has no concern about sending a child to prison for a crime there is no evidence he committed. I could puke every time I read anything he says. He is such a sorry excuse for a human being- Nearly as bad as Brendan's defense attorney from Hell.


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[SCHMAE]

In Episode 9 ? Is that the one with Brendan's trial ? Is that Colburn walking him to and from the court house ?

 

[stephsb]

In Episode 9 ? Is that the one with Brendan's trial ? Is that Colburn walking him to and from the court house ?

I'll check the episode when I get home tonight, but I would hope Colburn wouldn't be transporting him anywhere. Wasn't he still at the Sheboygan County juvenile center during his trial? If so, it should have been Sheboygan PD transporting him. One of my coworkers is a roommate of an officer that transported Dassey to a few court appearances, and he works Sheboygan PD, so they were at least responsible for some of his transport. Hope Colburn wasn't around, although I can't say I'd be surprised. He seems to end up in a lot of places he shouldn't be.


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[LemonMousse]

Sorry, I should have worded it escaped a prison sentence- he took a plea in order to get 5 years probation and AVOID prison, if he could stay out of trouble. He couldn't. I'm on my iPhone and see now that sentence was extremely confusing. He never escaped prison, you are absolutely correct.

Since Facebook doesn't lead to credible discussions, and you've apparently read every post on Reddit and can say that has NEVER been argued, then we don't need to discuss this further. If you don't find the FBI's research credible, and you don't think animal abuse is a precursor to future homicidal behavior, then I respectfully disagree. Nowhere does the homicidal triad mention pattern of animal abuse- and how are you know he DIDNT shown a pattern of abuse? Animal abuse alone by and by itself is now considered by the FBI as a violent crime that they do detailed reporting on. The Milwaukee journal sentinel reported on new standards of reporting on animal abuse that are required by the DOJ, the purpose being prevention of violence in the community. Again, I never argued that this made him a murderer, just a viable suspect. Also, Avery was not-guilty on the mutilation of a corpse charge, so no, i dont think he deserves an arson charge. Again, the FBI does not use the same definition as the statutory definition used by Wisconsin.

Again, the entire last paragraph is essentially what I have been arguing the entire time. I never said his prior convictions were the only determination of him being a suspect. Obviously Manitowoc County had their eyes on him from the beginning, and I agree they planted evidence. They compromised the investigation by never investigating his brothers and ST, and focusing all their attention on Steven. They tried to find evidence to fit the suspect and coerced a minor into a garbage confession. Their behavior is disgusting, and none of them should have jobs. I've never called Avery a murderer, and I personally think there is a better suspect than him for this crime.


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Like I said...it's called a Triad for a reason. There's three behaviours that all have to be present. The cat thing was not an instance of arson.

So you have one of the three occuring once. Honestly, I don't think the FBI would agree with you that Steven's past behaviour fits in with their homicidal predictors.

How do I know he DIDN'T show a pattern of abuse? No, sorry. Doesn't work like that. You're making the argument, so you bring the evidence. If you don't have any you can't shift the burden to me, I'm afraid. I can't prove a negative.

 

[dexter75]

TBH
I truly believe he just doesn't think.
He doesn't seem too smart that way.

Fair enough, unless he got caught for something else. He always could have hid the gun. Just wanted to make the point that is a relatively serious charge, especially when there are repeat offenses. He should have known better, but he didn't, or didn't care.


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[stephsb]

As I said, if you don't believe the FBI would view dousing a cat in gasoline and oil and throwing it in the fire as a future predictor of homicidal behavior, then I respectfully disagree with you. There is no way for us to prove what their personal thoughts on animal abuse as a predictor of homicidal tendencies, so as I said, i am happy to agree to disagree since there is nothing being gained at this point from this discussion. There are plenty of studies showing that animal abuse by itself predicts future violent offenses, including homicide, but there are experts on both sides of the issue.


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[dexter75]

:blowkiss:

OK - wow - just finished the entire documentary and couldn't take my eyes from it. I have been watching cases like this for a very long time and have NEVER seen anything like this. And I don't care how much they say this was skewed, or one-sided, etc...but their entire case was skewed and one-sided from the get go.

Bottom line - they want us to believe that the tag team duo of Brandon and Steve managed to pull off the most elaborately planned torture, rape and murder of this woman and managed to pretty much cover it up other than very slight evidence that was all found suspiciously??? And that these 2, each with an IQ of about 70, managed to do this??? To rape, torture, stab, slit the throat and shoot this woman umpteen times and still manage to burn the body so beyond recognition in a burn pit and leave NO evidence of her DNA in the bedroom, throughout the trailer or in that MESS of a garage??? There would have been blood in every crack and crevice of all the crap in that garage.

Then add to that such a horrible excuse for an attorney that Brandon had and that awful grin of his? Uck!

And then to top it all off, that blowhard of a prosecutor??? Sexually harassing victims of sexual assault???

I honestly have not seen a more preposterous case since the daycare abuse cases of the 80s where preposterous claims were made of hidden tunnels, satanic rituals, etc... This entire case is an absolute JOKE, except not a very funny one!

 

[Soulmagent]

My favorite mind blown moment from the series is when the video footage show the officers sitting on the bed in Steven's room. The one TH had her throat slit on.

Then later on during the court part an officer takes the stand and says one of the officers was sitting on the bed when he noticed the key on the floor. I mean if that doesn't show you they know TH wasnt on the bed ,i dunno what would.