Where the Avery Conspiracy Theory Falls Apart

[Sinsaint]

She may just be confused. Never heard of an incarcerated individual being let out of jail to attend an AA or substance abuse meeting. Jails normally conduct those kinds of meetings for prisoners in-house, not let them out to roam around. If it hadn't happened that day it may have just occurred on a different day. If he was intent on getting this photog to his property then a different day might not have made any difference.

Maybe he was intent on getting her there that day because there's a deadline for when ads can be placed for print and he was leaving town the next day?

 

[Sinsaint]

How can anyone not involved in the crime possibly answer that?

Investigators can only work with what is and what's found; some cases have holes in them and that's reality. It really doesn't matter if bullets are or are not found because:

1. Teresa was murdered and that's undisputed
2. Teresa's remains were positively ID'd through DNA
3. Shell casings were found in the garage and those casings were consistent with being fired from rifle in SA's bedroom

By that set of facts my son could be accused of the crime. He's got a few shell casings laying around.

 

[Madeleine74]

Maybe he was intent on getting her there that day because there's a deadline for when ads can be placed for print and he was leaving town the next day?

Maybe. For whatever reason he wanted her there, he specifically requested her name to Auto Trader, and her fate was sealed when she showed up at SA's trailer.

 

[Madeleine74]

By that set of facts my son could be accused of the crime. He's got a few shell casings laying around.

Really?

Does your son live in WI?
Was your son with TH the day she died, at the last known time her cell phone was ever used?
Was your son on the Avery property where TH remains were found?
Did your son build a bonfire in the fire pit on SA's property and tend to it for hours?
Was your son's blood found in TH's SUV?

No? Then no, your son could not have been accused of the crime.

I think people get hung up on details that aren't necessary to prove a crime occurred. They already had TH's charred body bits in the fire pit. They were able to positively ID artifacts that matched the jeans she was wearing. She didn't kill herself and haul her own body into the fire pit. She was murdered, and no one, not even the defense, disputes that fact.

 

[Sinsaint]

Maybe. For whatever reason he wanted her there, he specifically requested her name to Auto Trader, and her fate was sealed when she showed up at SA's trailer.

Maybe he requested her by name because she had no problems finding the place, did a good job and never treated him like dirt based on his past.

 

[missy1974]

Thank you "missy1974" for your statement. I'm not a die hard websleuther however, i became indulged in the discussion forums back when Tim Bosma for Ontario Canada went missing. How our local law enforcement from multiple municipalities and the provincial police handled the case was remarkable, I'm not suggesting perfection, but within the laws they uphold.

IMO. I don't think either side did any favours for the pending trial of both SA and BD, with a high level of media surrounding SA the history his law suit this man didnt stand a change from the beginning to be tried fairly in a court of law.

RSBM

Welcome back Watson-1975. Every once in awhile I get stuck on a case and have to follow it, and I always come here to get the good info! I did follow the Bosma case until the arrest and shortly after (crazzzzzzzy case).

This case would be a prime example of why Canada does and should keep our laws about publication bans until the trial! It can be frustrating when trying to follow a case (like Bosma's) but it really does make the process so much more fair to the accused.

 

[missy1974]

Someone up thread keeps saying five out of six rivets were found. So I guess one rivet and a bunch of bullets are missing. Admittedly, I have yet to read all the transcripts but I'd like to know if the zipper and front Jean button were found.

BBM
Good thinking.... why didn't we think of that last night? They are much bigger than the rivets too...

 

[missy1974]

SA did not request her by name (maybe he didn't know it)... he requested the girl that had come out before.

 

[Sinsaint]

Really?

Does your son live in WI?
Was your son with TH the day she died, at the last known time her cell phone was ever used?
Was your son on the Avery property where TH remains were found?
Did your son build a bonfire in the fire pit on SA's property and tend to it for hours?
Was your son's blood found in TH'us SUV?

No? Then no, your son could not have been accused of the crime.

I think people get hung up on details that aren't necessary to prove a crime occurred. They already had TH's charred body bits in the fire pit. They were able to positively ID artifacts that matched the jeans she was wearing. She didn't kill herself and haul her own body into the fire pit. She was murdered, and no one, not even the defense, disputes that fact.

I'm not getting hung up on a "detail." I'm hung up on a fact. A rather important fact considering Halbach was murdered by at least two bullets, or ten, and zero of those bullets were found in that fire pit. Her rivets were there which you seem to think is very important for no other reason than to corroborate Dassey's confession. How is it you can ignore nine or ten missing bullets? Those bullets would prove Dassey's story yet you just brush off the fact they aren't there like it's simple semantics.

 

[Sinsaint]

How can anyone not involved in the crime possibly answer that?

Investigators can only work with what is and what's found; some cases have holes in them and that's reality. It really doesn't matter if bullets are or are not found because:

1. Teresa was murdered and that's undisputed
2. Teresa's remains were positively ID'd through DNA
3. Shell casings were found in the garage and those casings were consistent with being fired from rifle in SA's bedroom
4. Even if bullets were found in the ashes, what would that prove, exactly? The one bullet found eventually in the garage that had Teresa's DNA on it was not believed because it was found after a few months and the lab analyst contaminated the control sample with her own DNA in the lab.

Lol... I see you edited your original post to add number 4. "Even if bullets were found in the ashes..." is nothing but smoke and mirrors on your part. For someone so inclined to point out that five out of six Jean rivets found in those ashes corroborates Dassey's story you seem rather hard pressed to explain why upwards of ten bullets that could not melt away were missing from those same ashes.

Let's stop playing coy, shall we? Where are the bullets?

 

[MaxManning]

Lol... I see you edited your original post to add number 4. "Even if bullets were found in the ashes..." is nothing but smoke and mirrors on your part. For someone so inclined to point out that five out of six Jean rivets found in those ashes corroborates Dassey's story you seem rather hard pressed to explain why upwards of ten bullets that could not melt away were missing from those same ashes.

Let's stop playing coy, shall we? Where are the bullets?

I'm glad whoever it was , I think Schmae, who questioned the significance of the rivets. Because it led to the conversation about the bullets not being in that fire pit being a big hole in this case.

I don't think we heard any testimony about those 10-12 bullets supposedly shot at TH in regards to where they should be. If he shot 10-12 times at TH, at least some would be in the body. Where are they ?

Someone said that ballistics cannot be done on lead bullets, so we know that the bullets were jacketed. Jacketed bullets would have survived the fire.

This is my understanding based on what people have said, open to hearing why any of this is not reasonable to suggest.


I don't think there was 10-12 bullets shot. But still fair to ask why there aren't at least 2 bullets in the fire pit, and question if the bullets would have left the skull.

 

[missy1974]

I don't think there was 10-12 bullets shot. But still fair to ask why there aren't at least 2 bullets in the fire pit, and question if the bullets would have left the skull.

RSBM

Even a simple google search tells me, probably not. I've even read that if it's not the right angle/distance, it might just bounce off and not even penetrate the skull (which my husband told me the other night and I thought he was crazy lol) I would love to hear from an expert about this... or maybe it's in the transcripts because they did have an expert at the trial (not sure if it was prosecution or defence witness)

and ugggh.... I just want to go on record saying I was googling that for research purposes LOL I would hate for something to happen to me and someone looks at my history:jail:

 

[Sinsaint]

I'm glad whoever it was , I think Schmae, who questioned the significance of the rivets. Because it led to the conversation about the bullets not being in that fire pit being a big hole in this case.

I don't think we heard any testimony about those 10-12 bullets supposedly shot at TH in regards to where they should be. If he shot 10-12 times at TH, at least some would be in the body. Where are they ?

Someone said that ballistics cannot be done on lead bullets, so we know that the bullets were jacketed. Jacketed bullets would have survived the fire.

This is my understanding based on what people have said, open to hearing why any of this is not reasonable to suggest.


I don't think there was 10-12 bullets shot. But still fair to ask why there aren't at least 2 bullets in the fire pit, and question if the bullets would have left the skull.

Madeleine mention the Jean rivets in the fire pit corroborates Dassey's confession. I mentioned the lack of bullets in the fire pit discounts Dassey's confession. If Jean rivets survived the fire jacketed bullets would as well (I assumed jacketed was a given since a ballistic report was given). Someone else piped in that lead bullets would melt around 600 degrees Fahrenheit. Newhouse testified the bullets were copper coated (melting point of 1984 degrees Fahrenheit) so they wouldn't have melted away, just as the rivets didn't.

Now, when posed with the question of where are those bullets the answer seems to be... "Believe Dassey's confession when he said he burned the clothes because the rivets were in the fire pit and it corroborates his confession totally. Bullets... What bullets? Dassey mentioned bullets too. Oh, those aren't there? Well, who cares."

We have a clear narrative. Dassey and Avery burned her bullet filled body. Dassey threw her clothing into the fire. Following that narrative the bones, rivets, buttons, zipper and bullets should all be found in the fire pit. All. <modsnip> Roughly ten bullets are unaccounted for. Where are they?

 

[MaxManning]

RSBM

Even a simple google search tells me, probably not. I've even read that if it's not the right angle/distance, it might just bounce off and not even penetrate the skull (which my husband told me the other night and I thought he was crazy lol) I would love to hear from an expert about this... or maybe it's in the transcripts because they did have an expert at the trial (not sure if it was prosecution or defence witness)

and ugggh.... I just want to go on record saying I was googling that for research purposes LOL I would hate for something to happen to me and someone looks at my history:jail:

Right, it comes down to whether the bone expert thinks the evidence supports entering the skull ? I thought that was the very reason there was believed to be 2 bullets at minimum, because the bone expert said she believed there were two bullet holes.

The bounce is new to me as well

 

[Sinsaint]

RSBM

Even a simple google search tells me, probably not. I've even read that if it's not the right angle/distance, it might just bounce off and not even penetrate the skull (which my husband told me the other night and I thought he was crazy lol) I would love to hear from an expert about this... or maybe it's in the transcripts because they did have an expert at the trial (not sure if it was prosecution or defence witness)

and ugggh.... I just want to go on record saying I was googling that for research purposes LOL I would hate for something to happen to me and someone looks at my history:jail:

We know two bullets penetrated the skull per the anthropologist. Neither one bounced off of her head otherwise there would have only been fractures. No doubt, two bullets entered her skull. Were there exit wounds? Does a .22 have the power to to enter and exit both sides of a skull? The answer to both is nope. Both bullets (along with the other eight or nine shot at her body) should be in the fire pit. If the bullets aren't there Dassey is a liar and/or the body wasn't originally burned in Avery's fire pit.

 

[missy1974]

Right, it comes down to whether the bone expert thinks the evidence supports entering the skull ? I thought that was the very reason there was believed to be 2 bullets at minimum, because the bone expert said she believed there were two bullet holes.

The bounce is new to me as well

That's one thing I don't really doubt much, I believe that there were 2 entry bullet wounds according to her testimony.

Was there more shots? should we expect to find more bullets than just the 2? I have decided that I can't believe anything from BD's various confessions, so him saying 10-12 shots, means absolutely nothing to me. I know of 2 .... and it is odd that they weren't found in the fire... and as someone else mentioned... what about the zipper and the button?

 

[missy1974]

We know two bullets penetrated the skull per the anthropologist. Neither one bounced off of her head otherwise there would have only been fractures. No doubt, two bullets entered her skull. Were there exit wounds? Does a .22 have the power to to enter and exit both sides of a skull? The answer to both is nope. Both bullets (along with the other eight or nine shot at her body) should be in the fire pit. If the bullets aren't there Dassey is a liar and/or the body wasn't originally burned in Avery's fire pit.

for argument sake... the other 8-9 bullets may not be in the fire because from what I can find... they most likely would pass through soft tissue. That being said.... if a bullet passes through soft tissue, I would expect more than very small trace evidence left on the fragment found in the garage (ya know... the one that could only be tested once and had the Lab techs DNA on it too)

* I still only believe the 2 that the expert testified too at trial. lol

 

[Sinsaint]

for argument sake... the other 8-9 bullets may not be in the fire because from what I can find... they most likely would pass through soft tissue. That being said.... if a bullet passes through soft tissue, I would expect more than very small trace evidence left on the fragment found in the garage (ya know... the one that could only be tested once and had the Lab techs DNA on it too)

* I still only believe the 2 that the expert testified too at trial. lol

I go by the two the anthropologist testified to. Those two would be stuck inside the skull. The other eight or nine would be from Dassey's testimony. If his confession is accurate those bullets can only be in one of two places. The fire pit where her body was burned or the garage if those bullets passed through her body. Eleven shells were found. Dassey confessed Halbach was shot ten or eleven times after much prompting. The bullets weren't found in the garage. They weren't found in the fire pit. So, where are they?

Assuming she was only shot twice, why weren't those bullets found in the fire pit?

 

[Sinsaint]

That's one thing I don't really doubt much, I believe that there were 2 entry bullet wounds according to her testimony.

Was there more shots? should we expect to find more bullets than just the 2? I have decided that I can't believe anything from BD's various confessions, so him saying 10-12 shots, means absolutely nothing to me. I know of 2 .... and it is odd that they weren't found in the fire... and as someone else mentioned... what about the zipper and the button?

So, do you agree with his conviction?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

B) If rivets survived the fire, jacketed bullets would have survived as well.

Not necessarily, it depends on where they were located in the fire pit. If they were only on the edge of the pit, it is possible the edge of the pit never got as hot as the middle. Additionally, the body and bullets could have been thrown in first while the fire was raging, and the clothes in later after the fire cooled a bit but was still going.