Where the Avery Conspiracy Theory Falls Apart

[MaxManning]

1. Did the others admit under oath that they knew Teresa was coming ? Or did Steven say he told the others you mentioned ?

2. Maybe a bit of a stretch ... but I'm assuming he's guilty and under interrogation trying to cover his tracks. How do we really know if wasn't thinking of the actual sequence of events of the crime ? I'll leave it at that for now.

3. Are you asking about Brendan's behavior during the 1st confession ? I really think he was clueless at that point and really thought he could go home. But I was specifically referring to the interrogation shown on the Grace special. I just find it hard to believe that he would continue admitting to a crime in multiple interrogations, after being able to speak with his family and a lawyer.

4. I also missed the evidence of Steven's cell phone call to Teresa on the day of the murder, but how would have the *67 Auto Trader calls have been released without a subpoena of phone records ?

I think you need to look at the dassey trial transcripts as well as the avery appeal transcripts. I definitely have changed my mind about many things and formed new opinions after learning more about the case.

Would also be good to understand more about those interrogations including the first one in the back of a squad car, rather than evaluating this case through the lens of the Nancy Grace special.

Great posts and links available on other threads regarding false confessions and coercion tactics as they relate to someone like brendan.


I say this all respectfully, but it's hard to have this conversation if it's in the tiny scope of what Nancy Grace thinks is relevant. Makes sense for TV entertainment, but not for a case of this magnitude where someone goes to prison for life.

 

[Sustained]

I think you need to look at the dassey trial transcripts as well as the avery appeal transcripts. I definitely have changed my mind about many things and formed new opinions after learning more about the case.

Would also be good to understand more about those interrogations including the first one in the back of a squad car, rather than evaluating this case through the lens of the Nancy Grace special.

Great posts and links available on other threads regarding false confessions and coercion tactics as they relate to someone like brendan.


I say this all respectfully, but it's hard to have this conversation if it's in the tiny scope of what Nancy Grace thinks is relevant. Makes sense for TV entertainment, but not for a case of this magnitude where someone goes to prison for life.

Max, I will certainly take your advice and look more deeply into the trial transcripts as well as the evidence & interrogations.

Are you 100% convinced now that Steven & Brendan are innocent ?

 

[MaxManning]

Max, I will certainly take your advice and look more deeply into the trial transcripts as well as the evidence & interrogations.

Are you 100% convinced now that Steven & Brendan are innocent ?

Quite the contrary, I have stated that I am about 90/10 that Steve is guilty based on what I know so far. The other 10% is just all the questions. I certainly would vote Not Guilty based on reasonable doubt if a juror.


I am more like 99% convinced Brendan is innocent. I give a 1% chance of Brendan being guilty of anything other than potentially being present during cleanup and burning - if steve did kill her.

My 1% is all about how possible it is that Brendan might do exactly what his Steve tells him to do, out of fear. I think most will disagree with me on this point, but the fact that he is so easily influenced to say such things and not understand the ramifications, makes me also wonder exactly what he might do if threatened by someone like Steve. Would he help clean up the body, burn it, and keep his mouth shut if he thought Steve would harm him ? I think so.

In that 1%, I'd see Brendan as a victim even still.

Do I think that Brendan would ever do something of this nature without the being threatened ? nope.

I try to stay objective about details of the case, because if we are honest, there is alot of suspicious elements on both side of the coin. So why not consider them all ?

 

[stephsb]

Quite the contrary, I have stated that I am about 90/10 that Steve is guilty based on what I know so far. The other 10% is just all the questions. I certainly would vote Not Guilty based on reasonable doubt if a juror.


I am more like 99% convinced Brendan is innocent. I give a 1% chance of Brendan being guilty of anything other than potentially being present during cleanup and burning - if steve did kill her.

My 1% is all about how possible it is that Brendan might do exactly what his Steve tells him to do, out of fear. I think most will disagree with me on this point, but the fact that he is so easily influenced to say such things and not understand the ramifications, makes me also wonder exactly what he might do if threatened by someone like Steve. Would he help clean up the body, burn it, and keep his mouth shut if he thought Steve would harm him ? I think so.

In that 1%, I'd see Brendan as a victim even still.

Do I think that Brendan would ever do something of this nature without the being threatened ? nope.

I try to stay objective about details of the case, because if we are honest, there is alot of suspicious elements on both side of the coin. So why not consider them all ?

I agree with your thoughts on Brendan to some extent. I certainly think if he's guilty of anything it is disposal/cleanup, perhaps unwittingly. I do think if Brendan was afraid of Steven, he'd probably do whatever he wanted, the problem is I don't think he was all that afraid. In the initial 2/29 interview LE question Brendan about his fear of Steven, and he gives consistent answers- he doesn't think Steven is getting out of jail. He initially answers that he wasn't afraid. So while I agree if Steven told him to help dispose of the body or he'd stab him, or hurt him, or whatever, Brendan would do it, absolutely. I do, however, think he would have given a consistent statement on his involvement, or told someone about it. Both LE and Barb were telling him he didn't need to be afraid of Steve anymore, and I think a real consistent statement would have come out, he would have spoke up. I truly believe he saw nothing in that fire. He could never give a consistent statement on it. To this day, he says he and Steven are innocent- I don't think he'd be proclaiming Stevens innocence if he saw a body in that fire.


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[Miette]

Quite the contrary, I have stated that I am about 90/10 that Steve is guilty based on what I know so far. The other 10% is just all the questions. I certainly would vote Not Guilty based on reasonable doubt if a juror.


I am more like 99% convinced Brendan is innocent. I give a 1% chance of Brendan being guilty of anything other than potentially being present during cleanup and burning - if steve did kill her.

My 1% is all about how possible it is that Brendan might do exactly what his Steve tells him to do, out of fear. I think most will disagree with me on this point, but the fact that he is so easily influenced to say such things and not understand the ramifications, makes me also wonder exactly what he might do if threatened by someone like Steve. Would he help clean up the body, burn it, and keep his mouth shut if he thought Steve would harm him ? I think so.

In that 1%, I'd see Brendan as a victim even still.

Do I think that Brendan would ever do something of this nature without the being threatened ? nope.

I try to stay objective about details of the case, because if we are honest, there is alot of suspicious elements on both side of the coin. So why not consider them all ?

I can absolutely see Brendan being coerced into helping with the clean up of a murder, but I can't see him keeping that a secret for this long under the amount of pressure he was under during the investigation, trial and now that he is in prison. The cops were looking for every opportunity to use him as a witness, and if he knew anything I think it would have come out during the first or second interrogation.

 

[Sustained]

Quite the contrary, I have stated that I am about 90/10 that Steve is guilty based on what I know so far. The other 10% is just all the questions. I certainly would vote Not Guilty based on reasonable doubt if a juror.


I am more like 99% convinced Brendan is innocent. I give a 1% chance of Brendan being guilty of anything other than potentially being present during cleanup and burning - if steve did kill her.

My 1% is all about how possible it is that Brendan might do exactly what his Steve tells him to do, out of fear. I think most will disagree with me on this point, but the fact that he is so easily influenced to say such things and not understand the ramifications, makes me also wonder exactly what he might do if threatened by someone like Steve. Would he help clean up the body, burn it, and keep his mouth shut if he thought Steve would harm him ? I think so.

In that 1%, I'd see Brendan as a victim even still.

Do I think that Brendan would ever do something of this nature without the being threatened ? nope.

I try to stay objective about details of the case, because if we are honest, there is alot of suspicious elements on both side of the coin. So why not consider them all ?

If you believe Brendan would be so afraid of Steve that he would help cover up the murder, why couldn't he also have participated under threat from Steven ? And if he did participate, i.e. stab/sex/dismember/burn, he is where he belongs as under the law he is just as guilty as Steven.

 

[MaxManning]

I agree with your thoughts on Brendan to some extent. I certainly think if he's guilty of anything it is disposal/cleanup, perhaps unwittingly. I do think if Brendan was afraid of Steven, he'd probably do whatever he wanted, the problem is I don't think he was all that afraid. In the initial 2/29 interview LE question Brendan about his fear of Steven, and he gives consistent answers- he doesn't think Steven is getting out of jail. He initially answers that he wasn't afraid. So while I agree if Steven told him to help dispose of the body or he'd stab him, or hurt him, or whatever, Brendan would do it, absolutely. I do, however, think he would have given a consistent statement on his involvement, or told someone about it. Both LE and Barb were telling him he didn't need to be afraid of Steve anymore, and I think a real consistent statement would have come out, he would have spoke up. I truly believe he saw nothing in that fire. He could never give a consistent statement on it. To this day, he says he and Steven are innocent- I don't think he'd be proclaiming Stevens innocence if he saw a body in that fire.


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I agree. I think there's a good chance that LE is who in that first squad car interview put something in Brendan's head along seeing things on the news and no doubt what people were saying to him at school etc. I can't rule out that maybe he saw something, and I go back and forth my mind about it.

 

[Tawny]

If you believe Brendan would be so afraid of Steve that he would help cover up the murder, why couldn't he also have participated under threat from Steven ? And if he did participate, i.e. stab/sex/dismember/burn, he is where he belongs as under the law he is just as guilty as Steven.

If he did then he has the worst memory in the history of forever. That kid didn't know what happened to Teresa, his version of events are not only inconsistent but completely different almost every time he tells it. Just... read all the transcripts from start to finish of Brendan's interviews.

 

[MaxManning]

If you believe Brendan would be so afraid of Steve that he would help cover up the murder, why couldn't he also have participated under threat from Steven ? And if he did participate, i.e. stab/sex/dismember/burn, he is where he belongs as under the law he is just as guilty as Steven.

I said I believe it's possible.

But if someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot someone or they will shoot you. Do you you think if you take that shot, you are a murderer ? Or the person that told you to take that shot ?

I know the courts and apparently you have decided to look at Brendan as an adult, but I'm sorry, I get the feeling he is rather slow and much like a child of say 10 years old. They talk about this in the trial and there's things he tests out as a 4th grader. Think about that.

So, if a grown man threatens a 10 year old to do something illegal, and the kid does it. You blame the kid ?

Sorry, I don't agree with that.

Again, the fact that this kid doesn't understand after confessing to rape and murder that he isn't going home, says it all to me. I honestly don't think it's an act. I think he doesn't get it, much like a 10 year old might not get it.

just my opinion.

 

[BethInAK]

Have to admit usually Websleuths is my "go too" on all cases but the theories being thrown out here have me scratching my head at the moment , I also see people that in my eyes are bringing up some great points being completely slammed down.
The amount of juggling people are doing to clear Avery is mental to me. I've even seen comments actually blaming the murder on the LE ...whatever about the planting but the murder ?! People actually believe the LE murdered this girl to lock lil Stevie up .....It's all getting a lil too silly too me . MOO

Why is it silly? Why would law enforcement go through all that illegal, unethical trouble to plant evidence to point at an already guilty man?

 

[BethInAK]

3. When looking at Brendan's interviews, it's important to keep in mind this is a child who had an IQ in the 69-73 range. He may sound "less dumb" in some interviews, but this is someone who has very apparent intellectual disabilities. This is someone who couldn't spell "detective" or "Teresa" , didn't know what "inconsistent" meant, or the difference between cursive and print, amongst other things. He was reading at around a 4th grade level. Children and the intellectually disabled are two of the groups most vulnerable to false confessions. They have a high desire to please and give detectives the answers they think they want, so LE needs to be careful they aren't feeding them information. Brendan was led into nearly every statement he gave, unless the statement didn't fit LE narrative, in which case they'd lead him away from the statement. He had no real understanding of the consequences of his statements, which was apparent when he asked if he'd have to stay in jail for just the night, after confessing to raping and murdering Teresa. He has no idea he won't be going home anytime soon, he thought LE would "go to bat for him" since they'd promised him that over and over. He was repeatedly told to "tell the truth" and "Teresa wants the truth" and "we already know the truth" until he gave police the answer they wanted. He's obviously guessing, he says so himself when he talks to his mom. Brendan's interviews, when looked at as a whole, are beyond concerning. I highly recommend reading the transcripts in order, as it shows how little info Brendan actually gave police. Also, he did not consult with an attorney prior to the 3/1 confession, he waived his Miranda rights when giving the statement (although I doubt he understood them, tbh)

YES!
This confession should have been completely tossed out. And what the cops did was completely illegal.

 

[Sustained]

I said I believe it's possible.

But if someone gives you a gun and tells you to shoot someone or they will shoot you. Do you you think if you take that shot, you are a murderer ? Or the person that told you to take that shot ?

In your example, both would be murderers. The defense would have to prove coercion, but the fact I pulled the trigger makes me a murderer. That example is no different than a childhood bully forcing another kid to steal some candy for him else he gets his nose broken. Kid that steals candy is still a thief as he really had no idea that said bully would punch and break his nose.

I know the courts and apparently you have decided to look at Brendan as an adult, but I'm sorry, I get the feeling he is rather slow and much like a child of say 10 years old. They talk about this in the trial and there's things he tests out as a 4th grader. Think about that.

So, if a grown man threatens a 10 year old to do something illegal, and the kid does it. You blame the kid ?

Sorry, I don't agree with that.

Again, the fact that this kid doesn't understand after confessing to rape and murder that he isn't going home, says it all to me. I honestly don't think it's an act. I think he doesn't get it, much like a 10 year old might not get it.

just my opinion.

I'm not sure why Brendan was tried as an adult w/o doing some additional research. I'm sure it had a lot to do with his confession as to the sex, stabbing, and cutting the throat of Teresa. Whether the confession was valid is another discussion.

I do believe that Steven had control over Brendan and ordered him to participate in the murder and cleanup. But I'm betting that even Brendan with his low IQ knew the difference between right and wrong. And if he was so afraid of Steven, why would Brendan have detailed the crime and implicated Steven during that first interrogation and still thought he could go home that day ? Wouldn't Brendan have been afraid of Avery family repercussions at the salvage yard ? How did Brendan know if the other Avery family members (assuming Steven was in jail) would not have harmed him in some way ?

 

[Tawny]

In your example, both would be murderers. The defense would have to prove coercion, but the fact I pulled the trigger makes me a murderer. That example is no different than a childhood bully forcing another kid to steal some candy for him else he gets his nose broken. Kid that steals candy is still a thief as he really had no idea that said bully would punch and break his nose.



I'm not sure why Brendan was tried as an adult w/o doing some additional research. I'm sure it had a lot to do with his confession as to the sex, stabbing, and cutting the throat of Teresa. Whether the confession was valid is another discussion.

I do believe that Steven had control over Brendan and ordered him to participate in the murder and cleanup. But I'm betting that even Brendan with his low IQ knew the difference between right and wrong. And if he was so afraid of Steven, why would Brendan have detailed the crime and implicated Steven during that first interrogation and still thought he could go home that day ? Wouldn't Brendan have been afraid of Avery family repercussions at the salvage yard ? How did Brendan know if the other Avery family members (assuming Steven was in jail) would not have harmed him in some way ?

RBBM: What gives you this impression? The Nancy Grace interview?

 

[missy1974]

In Wisconsin, any juvenile over 10 years old charged with homicide or attempted homicide is automatically tried in adult court, but defense lawyers may request a trial in juvenile court for youth under 16.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...lts-prison-wisconsin_55cbc70ce4b0cacb8d32ee35 <<< this is a different case but explains the "why"

 

[Madeleine74]

YES!
This confession should have been completely tossed out. And what the cops did was completely illegal.

It was? Can you cite the law that was broken?

 

[MaxManning]

I do believe that Steven had control over Brendan and ordered him to participate in the murder and cleanup. But I'm betting that even Brendan with his low IQ knew the difference between right and wrong. And if he was so afraid of Steven, why would Brendan have detailed the crime and implicated Steven during that first interrogation and still thought he could go home that day ? Wouldn't Brendan have been afraid of Avery family repercussions at the salvage yard ? How did Brendan know if the other Avery family members (assuming Steven was in jail) would not have harmed him in some way ?

Why do kids that are abused often not report their parents or whoever abused them ? When you are a kid, you likely feel powerless, and in many cases these kids are.

The kids know the difference between right and wrong, but they don't understand why their parents do this and fear further abuse.

Put an average 10 year old kid in a room with police investigators and see if they start telling stories if the police are saying they are going to throw them in jail unless they tell the truth. Once the kid understands what is acceptable to them and not acceptable, they will say what these guys want.

False confessions are a reality. There are some really good articles and documents on the topic in other threads both for this case and others. It's factual that people smarter than Brendan confessed to crimes they factually didn't commit.

Why do they do that ? Some with no fear of someone hurting them, but just police coercion.

Lastly, you say "that first interrogation". What you fail to realize is they started interrogating him back in november in the back of a squad car and he said nothing about any of this. It wasn't until he was fed all these details and the police narrative that he started repeating these things.

 

[Sustained]

Sorry, I can't agree with you.

So you are saying that little kids that are forced into prostitution should be sent to jail for prostitution ?

I sure hope one of those kids never gets tried by a jury you sit on. jmo

Are you saying that teenage gang members who murder should not go to jail even though the murder was part of a forced initiation to the gang ?

We could go on and on with this.

 

[Sustained]

We could go on and on, if you take it out of the context of an adult forcing a child to do something.

Someone chooses to join a gang.

Or do you want to continue flipping the context ? I could continue giving you examples of adults forcing a child to do something, and you can continue to cite things like this that have to do with a choice by a peer. Millions of individuals choose not to be in a gang.

Children that are abused. do they choose to be in that situation ? Do these victims of human trafficking choose to become prostitutes ?

How do you think the Halbach family feels about how Brendan was treated ? Do you think that they think Brendan's sentence is just given there has been no evidence to refute his stated involvement in the crime ?

And if you believe that Brendan was coerced by Steven to have sex, stab, and mutliate Teresa, would you have voted him not guilty ? 12 other Manitowoc County citizens thought otherwise.

I know false confessions happen, but I also know that teenagers hide a lot of things they do until you drag it out of them. I need to go back and listen to ALL of Brendan's taped interrogations and I'll have more to say ...

 

[SplishSplash]

Do you think that they think Brendan's sentence is just given there has been no evidence to refute his stated involvement in the crime ?

Where is the evidence that PROVES his stated involvement in the crime?

 

[Sustained]

Where is the evidence that PROVES his stated involvement in the crime?

His confessions were introduced as evidence. Until someone proves them false, they will stand as evidence that the jury considered in
convicting him.