Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[swedie]

IMO I believe Brendan was coerced into giving the interrogators the answers they wanted to hear in order to use them against SA, to get a conviction. IF TH was murderer as BD suggested, her blood and/or DNA would have been found in SA's bedroom somewhere. There was absolutely none, not one speck. Matter of fact they didn't find BD's DNA either. I believe he is innocent and deserves another trial at the least.

As for SA, I'm still undecided about whether he's innocent or guilty. A question I ask is, what was his motive for murdering TH? Sex? Wouldn't it be more logical for him to get a prostitute or visit his fiancée in jail? Doesn't it seem logical that he would be on the straight and narrow after doing 18 years in jail, he wouldn't take any risks of ending up back there? Seems to me that a couple of those officers who were involved in the 1985 rape case would have more reason to frame SA. There careers were on the line and IMO they had nothing to lose.

Also IMO I believe the state still owes financial compensation for the 18 years SA wasted of his life in prison regardless of whether he is guilty or not for the murder of TH. Even if they compensated him enough to find legal representation of his choice. If and until he is given another trial, and if he is found innocent, then I believe the state should further financially compensate him. If he's found guilty, then at least he did receive some compensation for those 18 years he was unfairly held in prison. It's not right that he is broke and could not find decent legal representation. Thankfully a lawyer has stepped forward and has taken on him case.

There were too many things that raised reasonable doubt in my mind through the ten Netflix episodes. One think I thought I would point out though that I think his defense may have gotten wrong is the test tube of blood. They suggest there is a needle hole in the rubber stopper of the test tube where someone could have extracted blood. In truth though, there is a needle inserted in the stopper as blood is being taken from donor. So unless there is a fail proof test developed to show there is EDTA in the swabs taken of SA's blood, from TH's vehicle, the punctured test tube stopper holds no water.

ALL MOO.

 

[KT76]

I voted undecided but needs a new trial, although I am more of the opinion hes not guilty.

I find it hard to believe that someone from a 'one branch family tree' would be 'clever' enough to kill someone, along with an unreliable nephew and not leave LOTS of DNA evidence around- in a home/garage that clearly hadn't been cleaned in years.

The Sheriff had said it would have been easier to kill SA to get rid of him than plant evidence, I truly don't think in this case it would be too far fetched that LE came across TH already murdered in her car, burn and dispose of the body and 'hide' the car on the HUGE salvage yard land.

 

[Vic50]

I cannot understand why anyone would think he is guilty... There was absolutely no blood found in that bedroom. I don't think the poor guy is the brightest bulb, so no way could he get rid of evidence of this crime the way they say it took place. This is so obviously a frame by those unscrupulous cops! No question in my mind at all! Put me on the next jury, and I will stick with my not guilty decision until I make it unanimous!

 

[swedie]

Dr. Phil covered SA's case Friday and today. I didn't realize it until after the fact on Friday. Will tune into Dr. Phil today for part two.

 

[Madeleine74]

Here's a link to watch Part 1 of the Dr. Phil Show on Making a Murderer, which aired on Friday Jan 15. I've not yet found a link to today's Part 2 episode.

 

[swedie]

Here's a link to watch Part 1 of the Dr. Phil Show on Making a Murderer, which aired on Friday Jan 15. I've not yet found a link to today's Part 2 episode.

Thank you so kindly Madeleine

 

[Limaes]

Guilty! I'm all for letting innocent people go free but, this piece of **** is not one of them.

Teresa was the perfect target for him. Too risky to go out in public and kidnap someone especially when he could get Teresa to come to him, at his home where he had total control...and privacy.

He knew she was more intelligent than the women he had previously been in relationships with and that she was repulsed by him because...well...she was more intelligent than the women he had previously been in a relationship with. That's why he had to trick her and lie to Auto Trader about his identity.

Her previous visit on the 10th October and the memory of him opening the door wearing a towel would have been fresh on her mind as she approached the ****hole he called home to get payment. If that creeped her out, imagine if she knew that just the day before, on 9th October, he purchased handcuffs and leg restraints. I fully believe she was supposed to die on the 10th October but she got the heck out of there in time. Unfortunately, just three weeks later, she wasn't getting away. He had help this time. His 16yr old, but big in stature, nephew.

RIP Teresa, they are being punished for what they did and no documentary of lies will change that.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Statistically when a woman is murdered it is MORE likely that a family member or intimate partner are the perpetrators more than 60% of the time.

” Although the overall risk of homicide for women was substantially lower than that of men (rate ratio [RR] = 0.27), their risk of being killed by a spouse or intimate acquaintance was higher (RR = 1.23). In contrast to men, the killing of a woman by a stranger was rare (RR = 0.18). More than twice as many women were shot and killed by their husband or intimate acquaintance than were murdered by strangers using guns, knives, or any other means” (source http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092)

I would hope that if I ever turn up missing, my husband would be questioned along with a myriad of other people I had recent close contact with. And that my husband, brother or any other civilian would not be escorted into the crime scene where my remains and other physical evidence will be found. No law or film school degree or police academy training needed to conclude that’s reasonable.

And that leaves a whopping 40% who are not killed by a family or intimate partner.

Statistics really doesn't mean anything to the individual murdered victim.

Just like it didn't when Amanda Blackburn, The Petit female family members or countless of other females who were killed by someone outside of their family or intimate partner.

The stats I have seen usually includes 'acquaintance' along with family members or S.O. and Theresa was acquainted with him since he had specifically been asking for her each time to come his junk yard. So Avery was known to her before he murdered her. Just like other females in the past have been murdered by someone in their neighborhood even a next door neighbor they knew casually.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Peppermintswirlz, I noticed in your link that it was written in 1992 when overall crime rates where much higher than they are now. Intimate partner homicides have actually dropped significantly in the past several years.

Here is one written in 2014

A Third Of All Women Murdered In The U.S. Are Killed By Male Partners

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/09/men-killing-women-domesti_n_5927140.html

This is inline with what I have read lately when it comes to husbands, boyfriends or exes, etc being the offender. The last stat I read it was around 33% committed by intimate partners, and even that number is dropping. When I have time I will find the latest one available.

 

[~n/t~]

Guilty! I'm all for letting innocent people go free but, this piece of **** is not one of them.

Teresa was the perfect target for him. Too risky to go out in public and kidnap someone especially when he could get Teresa to come to him, at his home where he had total control...and privacy.

He knew she was more intelligent than the women he had previously been in relationships with and that she was repulsed by him because...well...she was more intelligent than the women he had previously been in a relationship with. That's why he had to trick her and lie to Auto Trader about his identity.

Her previous visit on the 10th October and the memory of him opening the door wearing a towel would have been fresh on her mind as she approached the ****hole he called home to get payment. If that creeped her out, imagine if she knew that just the day before, on 9th October, he purchased handcuffs and leg restraints. I fully believe she was supposed to die on the 10th October but she got the heck out of there in time. Unfortunately, just three weeks later, she wasn't getting away. He had help this time. His 16yr old, but big in stature, nephew.

RIP Teresa, they are being punished for what they did and no documentary of lies will change that.

Gosh I must've fallen asleep or something when I watched the documentary....where are you getting the information about the handcuffs & towel, etc and Teresa visiting on Oct 9th ? If he answered the door wearing just a towel, wouldn't you think that would freak her out? Why would she go back to that property?

*confused*

 

[bessie]

Gosh I must've fallen asleep or something when I watched the documentary....where are you getting the information about the handcuffs & towel, etc and Teresa visiting on Oct 9th ? If he answered the door wearing just a towel, wouldn't you think that would freak her out? Why would she go back to that property?

*confused*

Link to handcuffs and leg irons thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298706

TH told a friend about the towel story. The friend said she wasn't really rattled by it. Thought it was creepy, but kind of laughed it off with an "Eewww". I'll look for the link.

 

[~n/t~]

Link to handcuffs and leg irons thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298706

TH told a friend about the towel story. The friend said she wasn't really rattled by it. Thought it was creepy, but kind of laughed it off with an "Eewww". I'll look for the link.

Thanks bessie. I found this:


Kratz, who prosecuted both Avery before resigning from his position as D.A. in 2010 following a sexting scandal, told PEOPLE on Tuesday that Avery "targeted" Halbach, citing Halbach's Oct. 10, 2005, visit to the property owned by Avery's family for a photo shoot for AutoTrader magazine. According to Kratz, Avery allegedly opened his door that day "just wearing a towel."

"She was creeped out [by him]," Kratz said. "She [went to her employer and] said she would not go back because she was scared of him."

At 8:12 a.m. on Oct. 31, the day Halbach was killed, Kratz said Avery called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send "that same girl who was here last time." He said that Avery knew Halbach was leery of him, so he allegedly gave his sister's name and number to "trick" Halbach into coming.

This call to AutoTrader magazine on the day of Halbach's death was just one of the pieces of evidence Kratz cites as being left out of the Netflix series.

http://www.people.com/article/making-a-murderer-filmmakers-respond-steven-avery-prosecutor-ken-kratz

 

[bessie]

Day 2, pp. 60-61, Dawn Pliszka (outside the presence of the jury)

15 Q. Could you describe, first of all, the words that
16 she used and then we will describe the
17 circumstances surrounding that. So first tell us
18 what she told you.

19 A. After she was out there, around October 10th, it
20 was like about a week or so after that, she had
21 stated to me that he had come out in a towel.

22 Q. He meaning whom?

23 A. Steven Avery.

24 Q. Had come out where?

25 A. She didn't specify, she just said that he had
1 come out, just in a towel.

2 Q. All right. Did Ms Halbach describe for you
3 anything else about that, any other details about
4 seeing Mr. Avery in a towel?

5 A. The only -- I just said, really, and she said,
6 yeah, and she said, yeah, and she laughed and
7 just said kind of, ewww, you know.

8 Q. Okay. You said kind of what?

9 A. Ewww.

10 Q. Ewww.

11 A. Yeah, just that.

12 Q. I guess not in a positive way?

13 A. Not in a positive way, no.

14 Q. Did Ms Halbach -- or was she seeming to describe
15 a specific event; in other words, was she
16 remembering that event when she was describing it
17 for you?

18 A. Yes.

From the judge's ruling, pp. 73-74

20 And for that reason, while the decision
21 is admittedly a close one, the Court is not going
22 to allow the evidence in for the reasons I gave.
23 The lack of specificity and the uncertainty as to
24 exactly when the statement was made and the fact
25 that different inferences could be drawn from it
1 because there is so little information about its
2 background.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1nzus-fCQcoM1JOSXI5OWFySm8/view?pref=2&pli=1

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Day 2, pp. 60-61, Dawn Pliszka (outside the presence of the jury)

15 Q. Could you describe, first of all, the words that
16 she used and then we will describe the
17 circumstances surrounding that. So first tell us
18 what she told you.

19 A. After she was out there, around October 10th, it
20 was like about a week or so after that, she had
21 stated to me that he had come out in a towel.

22 Q. He meaning whom?

23 A. Steven Avery.

24 Q. Had come out where?

25 A. She didn't specify, she just said that he had
1 come out, just in a towel.

2 Q. All right. Did Ms Halbach describe for you
3 anything else about that, any other details about
4 seeing Mr. Avery in a towel?

5 A. The only -- I just said, really, and she said,
6 yeah, and she said, yeah, and she laughed and
7 just said kind of, ewww, you know.

8 Q. Okay. You said kind of what?

9 A. Ewww.

10 Q. Ewww.

11 A. Yeah, just that.

12 Q. I guess not in a positive way?

13 A. Not in a positive way, no.

14 Q. Did Ms Halbach -- or was she seeming to describe
15 a specific event; in other words, was she
16 remembering that event when she was describing it
17 for you?

18 A. Yes.

From the judge's ruling, pp. 73-74

20 And for that reason, while the decision
21 is admittedly a close one, the Court is not going
22 to allow the evidence in for the reasons I gave.
23 The lack of specificity and the uncertainty as to
24 exactly when the statement was made and the fact
25 that different inferences could be drawn from it
1 because there is so little information about its
2 background.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1nzus-fCQcoM1JOSXI5OWFySm8/view?pref=2&pli=1

Is "ewwww" ever said in a positive way? Lol

 

[TheyDontSee]

NOTE: Everything is based soley off the documentary series. I have yet to "dig in" to any of the provided resources.

At the moment, I lean towards NOT GUILTY. (And in any fair trial, he would have been found not guilty because there's not enough evidence to convict him. Hardly anything but circumstantial evidence, if that! And like the excused juror stated, the majority voted NOT GUILTY before he left to attend to a family emergency and he's still stunned/disturbed by the outcome of it all. And this was not a reaction from someone who saw the docu series, obviously.. being IN it, for those who say that anyone who thinks he's not guilty is basing it off just the docu series. A JUROR thought, with all the evidence presented, SA was not guilty. 7 of them, actually.)

I don't believe that TH was murdered or burned on the Avery property. (If she was murdered in the bedroom, the mattress would have been soaked. Brendan, of course, made all that up. Then, it's suggested that it happened in the garage. Ah, that messy garage that people seem not to be able to understand or conveniently glance over: would have been IMPOSSIBLE to scrub down the fine blood splatter that would have resulted from gunshots. But they didn't find her blood there did they? Nope. They found SA's blood though... which is not shocking. Look at all the sharp rusty junk in there! You work in a junkyard, you're gonna cut yourself! It goes with the territory.

I think LE/gov people who hated him SO much were staking out his place for some time. They saw that she was there taking photos for him like she'd done before and that later that day SA had a fire pit going. A light goes off in their heads: they thought up this horrific scheme to make sure they get that SOB SA once and for all! (Money is the root of all evil. LE/gov had more of a motive that SA did! We're talking SA suing for MILLIONS. That's BIG MONEY. People have done a lot worse for a lot less.)
Yes, considering their hatred for the Averys, I wouldn't put any of this past them.

An alternative is that someone she knew killed her and who better to be the scapegoat? Yup, the Averys of course! (How the ex-bf* acted set off all sorts of alarm bells for me when being interviewed. His nervousness, non-answers, etc. OK, maybe he's just a nervous person. *shrugs* Also, I would have liked to see the MALE roommate in the series. What was his deal? And it's so telling how there seemed to be practically no suspicion or questioning of the standard usual suspects: lovers, exs, roommates, friends, family, etc.) But after all this time, if it did happen else where, it just gave the guilty party more time to clean up.

*Can someone clear this up for me: I saw two males in the courtroom audience. Her brother and a guy who looks just like him. Twins? That wasn't her ex-bf was it? And if not, how could he act concerned enough to get together a search party and then not show up for the trial??? ALSO, he gives TH's cousin the only digital camera knowing she would be searching the car lot.... almost as if he knew SHE would be the one to find the vehicle. Am I the only one who's suspicious of this!?

You know who else didn't sit well with me? Scott Tadych, who was dating SA's sister Barb. His "he got what's comin' to him" statement was odd. Why? What did Scott have against him? Also, Tadych has a history of violence towards women. He put himself there on that day. AND it was Barb's van TH was coming to photograph. (Very interesting article...more possible suspects)

Also, I don't recall anyone saying they heard gunshots. Hmmm. The Avery's lived close together. SA shoots TH and no one's gonna hear it? OK, if you say so...

I don't believe SA is stupid. Or not THAT stupid. Maybe growing up, he wasn't the brightest bulb but I think being wrongfully imprisoned for 18 years has made him wiser. I see no true motive for him to commit this crime. He was constantly warned, and I'm sure he agreed, that LE was NOT done with him... so do you really think, with the possibility of being surveilled ay any time, he would have murdered this woman, left her burned up remains scattered about his property AND left her easily identifiable car, barely concealed, on his lot? (He had a car crusher. Why not use that??) C'mon, folks! 18 years if a long time to have stolen from you. You really think he would have risked the rest of his natural life to murder a woman for no apparent reason? Sure, maybe he just got cocky being released and all.

Note: I binge watched the entire season 1 yesterday. Actually restarted my membership just so I could watch this.

I really think there should be a new trial. I think his lawyers were intelligent and did a great job but at nearly every turn, there seemed to be a bias against the defense on the part of the judge.
And like one of his lawyers said in the end, I actually hope I'm wrong and that he is guilty because the thought of an innocent man having this happen to him again, and this time for life with no possibility of parole, makes me sick.

And as for Brendan... wow. Looking at his case... I think a lot of lawyers and LE should be held legally accountable for their manipulation of a boy who clearly was not very smart and easily manipulated. They took advantage of him. Sad, really.

--------------------
But THEN on the flip side, there's what wasn't in the documentary series. Like this. But is Jodi believable? She's now claiming on TMZ that SA "tied me to the bed too." Too? I feel that was a made up story from the start but...alright.

And he burned a cat alive?! WTH... ok, maybe this is his karma....

What a mess, all this.... My mind may be swayed looking at more evidence that was left out of the docu series.. but these are my immediate reactions.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

So my comment apparently got deleted. It was not supposed to be taken as victim bashing. My point was that Teresa was clearly smart enough to know where she was going if the address was on Avery Road, and her employer didn't seem like he would send her back to a place she said she was uncomfortable. Not sure why I got censored on these points, but that's what I meant. If she was truly uncomfortable going back there, I think she would have refused the job.

 

[swedie]

If this isn't coercion at it's finest. Taking advantage of a "challenged" person to fit their agenda to try and show SA's involvement. What's sickens me is is that these are the people who were suppose to be defending BD and seeking the truth. IMO Len and O'Kelly are corrupt and were working for the prosecutors. For all their underhanded and slimy coercing, and lack of proper legal representation, during their time on his case, BD deserves a new and FAIR trial. MOO.

[video=youtube;CLnb2SF-E40]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnb2SF-E40[/video]

 

[Sustained]

What bothers me most is that if Avery is indeed guilty and Brendan is not, Avery lets a blood relative sit in prison waiting for some miraculous appeal that will free both of them. How could someone be so selfish, especially when his sister's life has been ruined ?

 

[Madeleine74]

Avery had a great defense team who gave him a first class A++ defense during his trial, as well as leading up to the trial.

Brendan had a bad public defender who was hellbent on getting him to cooperate with police, to BD's own detriment.

 

[Sustained]

Avery had a great defense team who gave him a first class A++ defense during his trial, as well as leading up to the trial.

Brendan had a bad public defender who was hellbent on getting him to cooperate with police, to BD's own detriment.

Even more reason to believe Steven might be selfish ... I would've though that the $400,000 received in the civil settlement could have been used for Brendan's defense as well. Although I might be off on the costs ...