Sheila and Katherine Lyon-sisters missing since 1975 - #2

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Schipperke said:
Anything is possible!

If we shut out any possibilities without completely reviewing them, we may handicap ourselves from finding the real truth! It seems that was the first mistake made in 1975. It is a mystery to me why some seem to want to shut down possibly open avenues BEFORE even checking to see where they might lead, UNLESS THEY REALLY WANT TO REDIRECT THE INVESTIGATION AWAY FROM SOLUTION.

You are right about so much of the facts which could be pertinent to this case being sealed from the public and only open to LE request procedures. That is a fact which can work for or against finding the truth depending on who was in charge in 1975 and who is is charge now and what their goal is/was. Fact is:

Until identifiable remains or other undisputable evidence is found, there will be the possibility that one of both of these girls or any of the other missing are still alive.
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"Anything is possible" is usually the last argument made before someone is convicted of murder and sentenced to life.
Of course anything is possible, which is why the standard for conviction is BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

The police obviously made a mistake in 1975 in not investigating Lloyd Welch at the time, but I would give you 100-1 odds that the mistake was made by accident (maybe tunnel vision) and not as a plot not to get to the truth.

Many things in history happen by accident or just limits of of what people can do. Few things happen as the result of a conspiracy, but conspiracy theorists feel otherwise. Most people think little of conspiracy theorists.
 
steveP120 said:
"Anything is possible" is usually the last argument made before someone is convicted of murder and sentenced to life.
Of course anything is possible, which is why the standard for conviction is BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

The police obviously made a mistake in 1975 in not investigating Lloyd Welch at the time, but I would give you 100-1 odds that the mistake was made by accident (maybe tunnel vision) and not as a plot not to get to the truth.
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I agree with you, SteveP. In 1975 no one knew anything about any suspect, so if there was a conspiracy it was by people involved and seeking to keep it that way.

Since 2012, things changed. Someone associated with a family molested children and went to prison. Other associates and/or family members who were involved in child *advertiser censored* also went to prison. Family members began giving LE information detrimental to other members of the family. Other Family members visited and communicated with another family member who had already been in prison for child molestation for some time, someone told a story, which was later recanted in favor of another story, and viola!

1) New persons of interest-one turned suspect, emerged,
2) whole new related story lines developed and appeared to be a sole focus of LE,
3) investigations, searches, special grand jury charges, were convened
4) kinfolk began taking sides, including here on WS,
5) LE geared everything toward the new story, and

(modsnip)

All I have done is throw out a possibility for consideration along with a caution to beware of gifts which could be too freely offered. There may be a good reason why this case has remained unsolved for more than 40 years despite the fact that a number of people now admit having “some” knowledge. That reason could involve cunning and planning.

You call it conspiracy--isn't that what two or more people making a plan is? I prefer to call it looking at all facts and possibilities to make sure facts are solid and not manufactured shadows. By looking only in one direction, something coming from another direction can easily be missed.

We don't know what has been found at the digsite, because the information has not been released to the public--probably for good reason. My caution is not a conspiracy scream, it is a call for keeping an open mind to all possibilities and recognizing how easily things got derailed in 1975 by ignoring the “less-popular” information submitted to LE—which, in fact, turned out to be the key to reach the facts known today.

I don’t know what the truth is. I am only identifying a “possibility that should be given consideration,” IMO. For anyone who has a problem with considering the possibility I put forth, I would ask, “Why? Why would you not want to consider all possibilities?” The answer to those questions, IMO, can only come from what LE did or did not find in their excavations. The decisions will be made by LE, not by me, and not by WS, but I consider this appropriate discussion for a public forum titled, “Websleuths.”
 
Schipperke said:
KMM Blog features true crime writer (name omitted- click link to find) analysis of cold unsolved cases. . .A Note About Comments

All comments will be screened by the blog-owner (i.e., me).
Here are the rules: . . .

4 – All posts are the opinions of those who send them. They do not necessarily represent the opinions of the blog-owner.
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I sort of lost track of who is who, and whose blog it is, but it occurred to me that if you start a blog, ironically, you are going to have problems with people posting things that may be slander or libel, (modsnip)

The problem with posting things like "Mr. X is a murderer," phrasing it was a question "Is MR. X a murderer?" offering it as an opinion "My opinion is that Mr. X is a murderer," or possibility is that it's a risk for libel or slander. If Mr. X is a convicted murdered or named by the police as a suspect, there is little risk of being sued for slander or libel.
 
The point was that the post was an opinion not a fact posted to a blog by a crime writer.
 
foureyes said:
:thinking: That went well.
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Hmmm......It actually did go well, you made your point! Here's the thing: this case and the publicly known evidence and testimony have reached a point wherein outside discussion is almost nonessential. The hostile witnesses are facing charges, and have been warned not to further perjure themselves; the cooperative witnesses have been warned to only discuss matters that have not been sealed by the court; the suspect is already in prison and not available for many interviews; and court dates are right around the corner, if everything proceeds without a continuance.

Very sadly, I actually have to believe that police got it right when they re-interviewed LLW and recommended that he be charged. One thing stands out to me: how; on earth, would LLW remember the shirt worn by one of the girls that day, if he had not had contact with them?
 
siriunsun said:
Very sadly, I actually have to believe that police got it right when they re-interviewed LLW and recommended that he be charged. One thing stands out to me: how; on earth, would LLW remember the shirt worn by one of the girls that day, if he had not had contact with them?
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Assuming that LLW was the Long Hair Man in sketch, he would have at a minimum have followed the two sisters and the one friend who directed (right term?) the sketch artist. The one friend also had a brief conversation with the Long Hair Man saying something like "Take a photo. It will last longer."

Hanging out at the mall, Lloyd could have also heard second-hand (gossip) what the girls were wearing, since I assume the disappearance was much discussed.

I like and have always liked Lloyd as a top suspect, but sadly his knowledge of what the girls were wearing that day I don't think is going to be serious evidence against him.
 
steveP120 said:
Assuming that LLW was the Long Hair Man in sketch, he would have at a minimum have followed the two sisters and the one friend who directed (right term?) the sketch artist. The one friend also had a brief conversation with the Long Hair Man saying something like "Take a photo. It will last longer."

Hanging out at the mall, Lloyd could have also heard second-hand (gossip) what the girls were wearing, since I assume the disappearance was much discussed.

I like and have always liked Lloyd as a top suspect, but sadly his knowledge of what the girls were wearing that day I don't think is going to be serious evidence against him.
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I seriously doubt if anyone "gossiped" to LLW about the shirt or blouse of someone he did not know personally. Also, each of the girls had a jacket on, over their shirts. Why would anyone remember something like that for forty years?

It wasn't so much that it became evidence in court; it was simply useful in getting search warrants, and in getting warrants to further question LLW. Now they have a confession......granted it's only a backhanded confession, and not a plea; but LLW has still made enough statements for the prosecution to nail him to the wall.
 
I suppose things will get more clear as they finalize the court date, but my understanding right now is that he is being charged with two counts of murder which means that acts killing must be proven to find someone guilty.

In 1975, someone provided details which led to the sketch which got waylaid in the investigation process, probably by accident. In all probability, that sketch would place LLW at the mall, and if the person who verified the sketch identifies the actual photos of LLW from around that time, it would be pretty convincing that he was there. He could have seen the girls, he could have talked to the girls. He could have identified the girls as a "designer targets" for kidnappers, but does any of that make him guilty of murder?

Every piece of evidence will be scrutinized in exactly that fashion when it comes to court.

Believe me, I want this to have "truth in the ending." I am praying for some positive proof of what happened to these two girls. I would love to have an ending like the 3 girls who were imprisoned for years but were still found alive and able to salvage the rest of their lives, even though I know it has about the same odds as winning a lottery buying a first and only ticket. If that isn't possible, then I pray for positive proof that these girls have gone to their maker and are not still alive. The one ending I do not want to even consider is a trial which produces nothing but a verdict, guilty or innocent, which will forever remain an open question and possibly allow the guilty to escape.

For that reason, I believe that until LE can produce that evidence of death, we continue following any and all leads to the possibility that either one or both of them are still alive, and we should be relentless in that pursuit of final proof. I have NO sympathy for anyone involved in this 40 year old crime.

It is not about what you believe, it is about what you can prove.
 
steveP120 said:
I sort of lost track of who is who, and whose blog it is, but it occurred to me that if you start a blog, ironically, you are going to have problems with people posting things that may be slander or libel, (modsnip)

The problem with posting things like "Mr. X is a murderer," phrasing it was a question "Is MR. X a murderer?" offering it as an opinion "My opinion is that Mr. X is a murderer," or possibility is that it's a risk for libel or slander. If Mr. X is a convicted murdered or named by the police as a suspect, there is little risk of being sued for slander or libel.
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(modsnip) there are some who are unwilling to look at anything except the current story about burning bloody bags which MAY have contained bodies over 40 years ago. I am not discounting the story, nor am I accepting it on face value alone. LE holds all the control over the evidence needed to prove or disprove anything.

On the other hand, there have been several major stories in the past few years of people who have turned up alive after being written off as "murdered" by nearly everyone. True, there are fewer live finds, but every one gives reason for hope and reason NOT to continue following leads to live solutions just as fervently as following leads to evidence buried in the ground.

Your post made reference to "some of the. . . you (meaning me) like." Believe me, there is nothing about this case that I "like." But, I am willing to consider everything to the point where it is disproved or this is no possible way of doing further investigation--i.e. alien abduction, I can't disprove it but I can't do anything more with it either; it is simply a dead end.

If remains are found on the mountain which can be positively identified as one of both of these girls, it too would be an end to the question of where they are. If remains which cannot be identified are found, it would not be a complete end to how they got there, IMO. If a report was filed with LE saying that one or both of the girls have been found at another location, I would hope that LE would give just as much consideration to verifying or refuting such information until they can put an end to the question, Where are these girls?

Part of me hopes that this "bloody body bag burning" story is the truth, and for obvious reason part of me hopes differently. It is for that reason I looked a the structural background of this story and the support upon which it depends. I am not saying it is untrue; I am only saying it needs to be examined for its stand-alone integrity as well as its ability to fit as a puzzle piece into other possibilities which should be considered.

I still get drawn back to the original question of why anyone would want to close off investigative possibilities without a complete ending. Why would someone throw out a confession and then try to muddy the water by taking it back? My only response in pairing those two questions would be that there might be worse things that could be discovered if the investigation does not stop here.

I am looking at known facts, possibilities of connections, and different theories that have been proposed without being totally ruled out by the facts. Again, I would hope that LE would be relentless in the pursuit of the whole truth in achieving total justice for everyone involved in any crime of this type.

I BELIEVE some of the players have been identified, but not all of them. I am hoping for a complete, proven resolution before this case is ended.
 
Schipperke said:
I suppose things will get more clear as they finalize the court date, but my understanding right now is that he is being charged with two counts of murder which means that acts killing must be proven to find someone guilty.

In 1975, someone provided details which led to the sketch which got waylaid in the investigation process, probably by accident. In all probability, that sketch would place LLW at the mall, and if the person who verified the sketch identifies the actual photos of LLW from around that time, it would be pretty convincing that he was there. He could have seen the girls, he could have talked to the girls. He could have identified the girls as a "designer targets" for kidnappers, but does any of that make him guilty of murder?

Every piece of evidence will be scrutinized in exactly that fashion when it comes to court.

Believe me, I want this to have "truth in the ending." I am praying for some positive proof of what happened to these two girls. I would love to have an ending like the 3 girls who were imprisoned for years but were still found alive and able to salvage the rest of their lives, even though I know it has about the same odds as winning a lottery buying a first and only ticket. If that isn't possible, then I pray for positive proof that these girls have gone to their maker and are not still alive. The one ending I do not want to even consider is a trial which produces nothing but a verdict, guilty or innocent, which will forever remain an open question and possibly allow the guilty to escape.

For that reason, I believe that until LE can produce that evidence of death, we continue following any and all leads to the possibility that either one or both of them are still alive, and we should be relentless in that pursuit of final proof. I have NO sympathy for anyone involved in this 40 year old crime.

It is not about what you believe, it is about what you can prove.
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LLW's own testimony places him at the mall. The testimony of a couple of others places the girls in RAW's home. As for the army bags, it isn't about the bags, themselves, anymore. It's about what was found at the site of the fire that was kept burning for days. Keep in mind, archaeologists can determine what was burned at fire sites from thousands of years ago. All they need is a bone fragment or two.
 
The perjury trial of Patricia Welch was suppose to start yesterday, January 26th, 2016. Does anyone know if it did indeed begin, or has it been continued to a later date?
 
Schipperke said:
Part of me hopes that this "bloody body bag burning" story is the truth, and for obvious reason part of me hopes differently. It is for that reason I looked a the structural background of this story and the support upon which it depends. I am not saying it is untrue; I am only saying it needs to be examined for its stand-alone integrity as well as its ability to fit as a puzzle piece into other possibilities which should be considered.
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It's great fuel for a conspiracy theory, so I am hesitant to tell/remind you, but Lloyd's cousin, Henry Parker, the bloody bag witness, died of natural causes a few months ago. In fiction, it would make for an interesting murder conspiracy to cover up a kidnapping ring, but in nonfiction, it just reduces the usable evidence against Lloyd.

You are free on your own dime to investigate alien abductions as long as you want or other long-shot theories, but you run a legal slander/libel risk if you say something like "Mr. X sold the Lyon sisters to Mr. Y," naming Mr. X and Mr. Y.
 
Historydetective63 said:
The perjury trial of Patricia Welch was suppose to start yesterday, January 26th, 2016. Does anyone know if it did indeed begin, or has it been continued to a later date?
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I don't see anything in the news. It could be too small of a case to make Google News, or it was very likely delayed/continued.
 
It has been continued to April I believe. There are pretrial motions set for LLW on the 20th unless they have been continued recently.
 
siriunsun said:
LLW's own testimony places him at the mall. The testimony of a couple of others places the girls in RAW's home. As for the army bags, it isn't about the bags, themselves, anymore. It's about what was found at the site of the fire that was kept burning for days. Keep in mind, archaeologists can determine what was burned at fire sites from thousands of years ago. All they need is a bone fragment or two.
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DNA proof of their death would obviously be the best evidence, but just the girls not being seen alive for so many years would in my opinion, be proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the girls are dead. The state would also have to prove who caused the death to convict anyone.
 
Thank you, SteveP. I don't think I have ever accused anyone of anything, but I will keep your advice in mind. I offer possibilities with logic as to why they should or should not be considered. Conspiracy is your choice of word, not mine.
 
steveP120 said:
DNA proof of their death would obviously be the best evidence, but just the girls not being seen alive for so many years would in my opinion, be proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the girls are dead. The state would also have to prove who caused the death to convict anyone.
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Jaycee Dugard was gone was gone a long, long time. How long being missing would be proof of death beyond a reasonable doubt? I agree it is a long-shot, but it has happened. I also agree with our standard for conviction of murder. Good to know we can agree on some things.
 
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