ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #17

[ILOKAL]

I never got a hinky vibe from either parent, or from IR either. I thought perhaps they were trying to cover up that they had gotten a bit careless about supervising, but that most likely their story was essentially correct and DeOrr had wandered off from the campsite as they said.

And I'm not sure anything that has been said the last couple of days has changed my mind. I won't be surprised if evidence comes out indicating otherwise, but nothing that has been said qualifies as evidence. It's all opinions and accusations. Could be true. Might not be.

I didn't get a hinky vibe from either parent either, but a wildfire began yesterday, and because of the way it has spread, I don't know if it can ever be extinguished should the truth be the parents ARE innocent. Although all records are documented, all interviews recorded, and everything is sealed and will remain such until and unless charges are filed, Bowerman still has to be VERY careful what he says. Sure, he can withhold information, but he wouldn't lie to his constituents who are counting on him to solve this case. No one, not PI's and not any attorneys, have the investigative files. The ONLY thing the sheriff has said (because everything IS documented) is that the parents have (IHO) been "less than truthful". As time goes on and discussion ensues, keep those words in mind. In his very first comment (yesterday) he said the parents had been deceptive. That was quickly changed to "less than truthful". Less than truthful might correspond, in part, to the parents' inconclusive polygraphs. However, the term "deceptive" would have been a clear fail on their polygraphs, but they did NOT fail them, so he CAN'T (and won't) use that word because their polygraphs don't show deception. Bowerman needn't say anything more. Should this become a case by way of charges being filed, all those sealed elements will HAVE to be revealed. And within them will be the actual discrepancies, if any, of what the parents have said. There is little doubt in my mind that those discrepancies will be SO minor that in the total scope of things, they would have nothing to do with the disappearance of little DeOrr. But, they were still "less than truthful" and with that tiny match, began the biggest wildfire in the history of Idaho - a fire that can NEVER be extinguished. If these parents, during their multiple polygraphs, WERE being deceptive, their polygraphs, ALL of them, would have been a fail. They are not, because the parents haven't been deceptive, at all. IMO

http://www.privatecop.com/ploygraph-lie-detector/polygraph-frequently-asked-questions.html

 

[JeauWyte]

I want to believe the secret adoption story because it offers hope, but that seems pretty unlikely. I have no theory as to what happened or where he is, but lately I've been thinking about a possibility that I haven't seen put out there yet (who knows though, as this is thread 17 and it's difficult to keep up). Anyway, it they had a decent window to dispose of the body, they could have found a spot in the creek and dammed it temporarily, dug a hole, then filled it in, placing larger rocks over the spot to keep everything in place, and the water would have made it look natural shortly after. I have done a little gold panning in small creeks in the W. Idaho area, and have noticed it doesn't long for even a light current to "smooth" the creek-bed back out. On top of that, a lot of people that camp (at least in Idaho) will dam up water to make a place to swim or soak, so this may be a familiar concept to them. It wouldn't take much to dig down deep, even with crude tools. I have dug behind a large rock in the N. Fork of the Boise River with not much more than my hands, and got a 2' x 2' hole dug and an hour or two, and I was panning the stuff as I went. The point I'm getting at is he could be buried very close and in a shallow grave that was hidden shortly afterwards and was missed during the search of the creek because nothing looked out of place. Just a thought.

 

[Trident]

The bag went missing during the searches, so do you mean that they stole the bag to move the body? That would be very risky... Too much chance of someone seeing them wandering around with an EMT bag. Why wouldn't they just use one of their own bags, or take a friend or relative's bag, rather than breaking into a car and taking a very distinctive bag.

I'm not sure the parents would have been wandering around with the EMT bag; after all, no one saw them with it. However, I don't believe it is beyond possibility body/or live child, possibly was stashed in said bag and picked up by another party.

Just a thought/opinion/whatever

I really am opting for a "friendly" abduction because "Family"; social media; the way families are looked at by others seem to be SO IMPORTANT to these people. I "think" it may be possible some did not approve of one or the other of the parents, or the way the child was being raised. What I think I see is a small group dictating what is right and what is wrong.

I could be wrong, just my opinion.

 

[bessie]

If the parents were unaccounted for for 4 hours though, that is plenty of time to dispose of a body far away, clean themselves up (maybe find somewhere to take a shower), change their clothes, dispose of any other evidence...

Plus we don't know that the cadaver dogs didn't hit on anyone or anywhere. Bowerman wouldn't tell us if they had, IMO.

He wouldn't tell if they did, but he made it pretty clear that they did not.

A total of 18 dogs were used to search over a matter of time, and SB feels certain they would have found some trace of DeOrr if he were there. He eventually turned away volunteer canine groups because the area already had been covered thoroughly "20 or 30 times". It's possible he was holding back in the October interview, but he sure was convincing.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12122056

As for that four hour window, I wish Klein would provide clarification. I don't think the parents were totally unaccounted for that entire time.

 

[lesajo]

Again just markin my spot. There has been so much in such a short period of time, I can not keep up. My head is spinning, and my jaw keeps dropping, from the 17 min to 4 hours, the Vilt letter, the Vilt interview, IR interview, Kleins review of IR interview, SB statements, etc!!!!
How can a websleuther sleep!!!! Hard to keep little Deorr off my mind. Wonder who recanted thier stories, or which part of thier stories? ( think I heard that from Klein's interview reviewing IR'S interview).

Oops, don't think I marked my spot right, lol. Went to the end. I'm tired. Poor little Deorr .

 

[Trackergd]

My observation from child searches over the years and NASAR training: Very small children are usually found within 200 - 600 yards of the LKP/PLS. When searching for small children, get on your hands and knees and see the world from their perspective as they tend to crawl into holes, under brush piles etc. If you can hear water running, send a team to check that area as the sound is a draw for children. If they are not within about a 600 yard radius of the LKP/PLS, they have been removed from the area or were never there to begin with.

 

[ILOKAL]

My observation from child searches over the years and NASAR training: Very small children are usually found within 200 - 600 yards of the LKP/PLS. When searching for small children, get on your hands and knees and see the world from their perspective as they tend to crawl into holes, under brush piles etc. If you can hear water running, send a team to check that area as the sound is a draw for children. If they are not within about a 600 yard radius of the LKP/PLS, they have been removed from the area or were never there to begin with.

Apparently, not necessarily. When 2 1/2 year old little Noah Chamberlin disappeared in the Tennessee woods behind his grandmother's house, the LKP/PLS was known precisely. I believe 1000 acres in total were searched. Seven days later, little Noah's body was found in a slight, grassy depression in a clearing, just outside the search area. It appeared as though little Noah had stayed on the trails the entire time. IMO

 

[Trident]

Apparently, not necessarily. When little Noah Chamberlin disappeared in the Tennessee woods behind his grandmother's house, the LKP/PLS was known precisely. I believe 1000 acres in total were searched. Seven days later, little Noah's body was found in a slight, grassy depression in a clearing, just outside the search area.

And many others also. Thank you for this post.

 

[Rayemonde]

I didn't get a hinky vibe from either parent either, but a wildfire began yesterday, and because of the way it has spread, I don't know if it can ever be extinguished should the truth be the parents ARE innocent. Although all records are documented, all interviews recorded, and everything is sealed and will remain such until and unless charges are filed, Bowerman still has to be VERY careful what he says. Sure, he can withhold information, but he wouldn't lie to his constituents who are counting on him to solve this case. No one, not PI's and not any attorneys, have the investigative files. The ONLY thing the sheriff has said (because everything IS documented) is that the parents have (IHO) been "less than truthful". As time goes on and discussion ensues, keep those words in mind. In his very first comment (yesterday) he said the parents had been deceptive. That was quickly changed to "less than truthful". Less than truthful might correspond, in part, to the parents' inconclusive polygraphs. However, the term "deceptive" would have been a clear fail on their polygraphs, but they did NOT fail them, so he CAN'T (and won't) use that word because their polygraphs don't show deception. Bowerman needn't say anything more. Should this become a case by way of charges being filed, all those sealed elements will HAVE to be revealed. And within them will be the actual discrepancies, if any, of what the parents have said. There is little doubt in my mind that those discrepancies will be SO minor that in the total scope of things, they would have nothing to do with the disappearance of little DeOrr. But, they were still "less than truthful" and with that tiny match, began the biggest wildfire in the history of Idaho - a fire that can NEVER be extinguished. If these parents, during their multiple polygraphs, WERE being deceptive, their polygraphs, ALL of them, would have been a fail. They are not, because the parents haven't been deceptive, at all. IMO

http://www.privatecop.com/ploygraph-lie-detector/polygraph-frequently-asked-questions.html

Bowerman said that the parents "absolutely" know where DeOrr is. That's hardly a minor discrepancy.

 

[JaneMD]

There is a copy of the letter from Frank Vilt (Former PI) to the parents on FB. It states Vilt was not charging a normal hourly rate but would charge for "Out of Pocket" expenses. I can't speak to the arrangements with the current PI (Klien).

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Bowerman is talking tonight but isn't someone else supposed to talk this morning or am I thinking of the Vilt thing that happened yesterday? I keep thinking there's something I'm supposed to watch for this morning.

 

[Rayemonde]

He wouldn't tell if they did, but he made it pretty clear that they did not.

A total of 18 dogs were used to search over a matter of time, and SB feels certain they would have found some trace of DeOrr if he were there. He eventually turned away volunteer canine groups because the area already had been covered thoroughly "20 or 30 times". It's possible he was holding back in the October interview, but he sure was convincing.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12122056

As for that four hour window, I wish Klein would provide clarification. I don't think the parents were totally unaccounted for that entire time.

I've always felt like "a trace" meant nothing physical... No clothing, or tracks or anything like that. a dog alerting wouldn't count as them finding a trace of DeOrr IMO because it could be a false alert.

I've never felt certain that the dogs failed to find any scent of DeOrr anywhere, although I know this idea led many people to conclude that he was never there in the first place...

We know that the dogs did indeed alert at the reservoir, or by the reservoir, but Bowerman put that down to the cremations that were scattered. How do we know that Deorr didn't perish at the reservoir, and then his body was removed from the scene? :thinking:

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Bowerman is talking tonight but isn't someone else supposed to talk this morning or am I thinking of the Vilt thing that happened yesterday? I keep thinking there's something I'm supposed to watch for this morning.

A radio interview with FV on Kid590.

 

[ninij9]

I don't like this villainizing of Jessica because she (allegedly) didn't want children. Many women do not want children, and that doesn't make them bad. With sex education in the US being so bad, and Jessica having children so young, it's likely that she wasn't educated about contraception and/or did not have access to or money for contraceptives. Tubal ligation is uncommon in young women (often because doctor's won't allow it), but when a woman already has children, especially if she has a low socioeconomic status, more doctors will perform them.

Not wanting children doesn't make you more likely to murder. <modsnip>

Thanks for pointing this out. My daughter doesn't want children, says it all the time. However if she was to become a mother, I've no doubt she would be brilliant, and wouldn't kill her child. I've yet to read anything besides innuendo to convict these parents. I find it disturbing to say the least.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Trident]

Bowerman said that the parents "absolutely" know where DeOrr is. That's hardly a minor discrepancy.

And Bowerman also said the parents were "solid". This man is either playing Columbo or he speaks from both sides of his mouth. I no longer trust much of what he says - he swings one way, then the other, but I believe he may be torn between the community mores, people he knows and the job he he is paid to do.

My opinion only, no facts

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

A radio interview with FV on Kid590.

Thanks. I doubt it will be any different from the one yesterday.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

And Bowerman also said the parents were "solid". This man is either playing Columbo or he speaks from both sides of his mouth. I no longer trust much of what he says - he swings one way, then the other, but I believe he may be torn between the community mores, people he knows and the job he he is paid to do.

My opinion only, no facts

He said "solid" very early on. Cops change their minds as evidence accumulates, the same as we do.

 

[Trident]

He said "solid" very early on. Cops change their minds as evidence accumulates, the same as we do.

Yep, but his "solid" put a lot of people off the track. A man in his position, IN MY OPINION, has no right to state "solid", he is paid to investigate, not make judgement calls and tell people what to think or post on SM.

Could be wrong. My opinion only but, sorry to say, I do not trust him completely.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I've always felt like "a trace" meant nothing physical... No clothing, or tracks or anything like that. a dog alerting wouldn't count as them finding a trace of DeOrr IMO because it could be a false alert.

I've never felt certain that the dogs failed to find any scent of DeOrr anywhere, although I know this idea led many people to conclude that he was never there in the first place...

We know that the dogs did indeed alert at the reservoir, or by the reservoir, but Bowerman put that down to the cremations that were scattered. How do we know that Deorr didn't perish at the reservoir, and then his body was removed from the scene? :thinking:

My bold.

See, I'm still not clear about this. Did SB's and another searchers (tracking) dogs follow a scent to the reservoir and back to camp on the Friday afternoon/evening and the cremains incident happen on Saturday?

 

[Groundwork]

I wonder if the family has been under surveillance?