Bosma Murder Trial 02.18.16 - Day 11

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I still believe a few friends were threatened with charges. In return to have them dropped they had to spill their guts to not have any charges pressed. I imagine they were threatened with more serious charges than would ever stick as a way to fry the bigger fish.


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To me, the problem with this practice is that it gives people an incentive to tell the cops what they want to hear in order to save their own bacon. Self preservation is a strong instinct to counter, and many people would say anything to keep themselves safe if it came down to it.
 
From my understanding dr. Rogers is just a specialist in bones so she wouldn't be qualified in blood so maybe that's why it wasn't mentioned and I doubt after she was done with the incinerator the LE didn't just leave it at the farm, they must have taken it somewhere to look for finger prints, etc


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Everything I've read says 2007.5 and newer shouldn't use Mexican diesel. http://bajamary.com/media/Mexico-Diesel.php

I'm not sure that tims truck would apply? His was a 2007 I believe and not sure what the Cummins engine required?


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I'm not feeling very confident that DM would have even known or consider this. He didn't/doesn't appear too bright from a lot of things we've discover over the past almost three years. But then again, I guess that could have been why he kept his handy dandy mechanic around. MOO.
 
The 75% accuracy, I believe, was in relation to the bone being that of a male human, as opposed to being TB. Not sure if they will have been able to get any DNA from the bones they found. But.. if not TB, then whom? Not much in the way of reasonable doubt there, even if they can't get DNA.... as long as they know they are human bones!

My thinking was that the tooth might've belonged to another victim, if not Bosma. Also, if there was a chance that one piece of obvious evidence had not been submitted to the appropriate tests, the Defense may find reasonable grounds to protest and make the Crown look incompetent before the jury. But they didn't, thankfully, because the prosecutors and Dr. Rogers did their job well and, with the help of a forensic biologist or dentist, could place TB's body in the incinerator.
 
Link to Lisa Hefners segment on the news at 6:00. Right at the end she makes ref to the dentist iding the tooth but not sure if it's to Tim or just stating its a tooth?

http://www.chch.com/bosma-day/


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Just thought I would post this diagram from the newscast linked above, when Dr. Rogers showed the parts of the body from where the bone fragments likely originated.

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The 75% accuracy, I believe, was in relation to the bone being that of a male human, as opposed to being TB. Not sure if they will have been able to get any DNA from the bones they found. But.. if not TB, then whom? Not much in the way of reasonable doubt there, even if they can't get DNA.... as long as they know they are human bones!

I am confused about all of the little markers that Dr. Rogers indicated were marked at the burn site(s), when she had her students searching those areas. What did the markers find? To me, it isn't clear whether all of the little bone fragments were retrieved from the incinerator, or whether some were found in the field. I doubt if they will be calling Dr. Rogers back to the stand again, so I am thinking that all of her evidence testimony has already been given. Was it even mentioned whether the bones/fragments were sent off to CFS for DNA analysis? Also, no mention of the blood reportedly found on the incinerator; with Dr. Roger's examination, wouldn't that have been found at that time, and if so, why wasn't it mentioned today?

The bones would have been sent to forensics who specialize in possibly extracting DNA or genetic marker from bones, same with the blood found on the incinerator, another forensic tech would be responsible for testing the blood. I gave this example before. There were two different fingerprint experts who have testified so far on DM's thumb/fingerprints found on different areas of TB's truck, so it's not a stretch to figure there could be another expert who specializes in DNA, who would have studied all the bones kwim.

I sure hope they were identified as TB's bones that LE gave to SB, in that tiny box. :(
ALL MOO.
 
It really makes me wonder what else is about to come out that we had NO idea about? So far, all of it seems to be rather damning as far as DM goes, but for MS? Seems more he was just someone along for the ride. That, woops, forgot to roll on DM at the first chance.

I'm afraid it's only just begun, my dear :(
 
Everything I've read says 2007.5 and newer shouldn't use Mexican diesel. http://bajamary.com/media/Mexico-Diesel.php

I'm not sure that tims truck would apply? His was a 2007 I believe and not sure what the Cummins engine required?


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Hmm. I was wondering .... if you want to steal a truck so badly that you're willing to risk murdering someone and spending 25 years in prison, why wouldn't you go all out and steal a 2012 instead of a 2007. Think you may have just hit on the answer!
 
All of the bones and bone fragments AND THE TOOTH belong to TB. In the video posted above by Matou, at the end, you will see how Dr. Rogers was able to identify each bone and fragment including the tooth belonging to TB. Dr. Rogers has the tooth labelled left side, lower jaw. HTH and MOO.

There hasn't been any evidence submitted yet that any of the bones/fragments or tooth (or blood for that matter), belong to TB. Dr. Rogers can identify which parts of the body/bones the little fragments came from, and that they are human, and that at least one of them proves the bone belonged to a male human, but she hasn't confirmed that they belong to any specific person. In Dr. Rogers' diagram, I believe she is only showing bones of a human male, but not specifically of TB.

Next week's dentist witness may also be able to testify that the tooth belonged to a human, perhaps a male(?), and perhaps the age range. It would be great if the tooth contained DNA, or an identifying filling or something, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

This will likely be one of those pieces of circumstantial evidence, where the jury will have to ask how reasonable it would be to doubt whether the bones and tooth belonged to TB, considering all of the other corresponding circumstances. MOO
 
I know the Crown has to provide discovery to the defense, but exactly how much detail are they required to provide. I guess what I am trying to ask is, do the defendants know everything that has come up/is going to come up or do they just know that (for example) blood was found and not the extent that it was. Anyone able to help me on this?

They (the defence) are supposed to be given *all* disclosure.. all witness statements, photographs, copies of videos, scientific reports, etc., ahead of time, so that they can plan and provide their defence.

I am not 100% on this, but I am pretty sure that if the defence *isn't* provided with full disclosure, and some kind of evidence is presented at trial which the defence knew nothing about, it is cause for a mistrial... see link below as an example.

http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/legalfeeds/2076/late-disclosure-nets-defendants-600-000.html
 
Next week's dentist witness may also be able to testify that the tooth belonged to a human, perhaps a male(?), and perhaps the age range. It would be great if the tooth contained DNA, or an identifying filling or something, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

This will likely be one of those pieces of circumstantial evidence, where the jury will have to ask how reasonable it would be to doubt whether the bones and tooth belonged to TB, considering all of the other corresponding circumstances. MOO

True, that's a probable scenario. But if scientists and researchers are able to develop techniques to extract DNA from ancient, virtually dehydrated teeth, my hope is that they'll be able to do the same for Bosma's remains. I suppose I'd rather all doubt be removed regarding the incineration of TB's body on DM's farm, but we'll have to see what the Crown comes up with next week. Fingers crossed that the jury will make the right call, with or without DNA verification of the bones.

Edit: But as deurgirni mentioned below, and I've forgotten, the tooth may be burned beyond ability for DNA extraction. The Crown still has plenty circumstantial evidence the Defense will have to answer to, though.
 
Speculating - Thinking incinerator could have been picked up anywhere btw Btfd & hangar--not necessarily farm. Maybe headed for farm but realized they needed fuel for it otherwise why go to hangar where they might more likely be seen?
 
Pictures of the available evidence drive home to me the extent of violence inflicted on TB before and after his death (thanks again to those who are posting them here). It takes a *special* kind of person to load an innocent man's body into an incinerator to burn beyond recognition. Rather than dumping the body in a ditch, DM, and presumably MS, took deliberate steps to eliminate traces of incriminating evidence as best they could. I can't, or perhaps don't really want to, imagine what went on in their heads as they waited for the incinerator to do its dirty work at the hangar that night.
.

This is just IMO, I think they got tired of burying or disposing of bodies. Maybe that's why their skidsteer or whatever burned out--digging graves. It would take a lot to premeditate such an equipment purchase I'd think.
 
The bones would have been sent to forensics who specialize in extracting DNA from bones, same with the blood found on the incinerator, another forensic tech would be responsible for testing the blood. I gave this example before. There were two different fingerprint experts who have testified so far on DM's thumb/fingerprints found on different areas of TB's truck, so it's not a stretch to figure there could be another expert who specializes in DNA, who would have studied all the bones kwim.

I sure hope they were identified as TB's bones that LE gave to SB, in that tiny box. :(
ALL MOO.

Yes for sure the bones will have been sent to forensics, along with the tooth and the blood. I'm just saying that Dr Rogers didn't specify to which human being the bones belonged, but simply that they were in fact human, and in her expert opinion, they were from a male aged under 40 years.

In the Crown's opening statement, it was stated that blood belonging to TB was found on the incinerator, and also that many human bone fragments were discovered inside. After cremation, it is often impossible to extract DNA from the remains, and so we may have to end up going with the very damning circumstantial evidence in believing the bones belonged to TB. It is believed that they discovered the remains of one adult human inside the incinerator. All reasonable inferences are that it was TB's remains that were found, and his alone.

I am doubtful however, that they will be able to say they were able to get enough DNA to prove with 100% certainty that it was TB's bones in the incinerator (MOO), since that was not stated in opening remarks.

Fortunately 100% certainty and/or 100% proof is not required for a conviction.

a reasonable doubt is not an imaginary or frivolous doubt, nor is it based upon sympathy or prejudice. A reasonable doubt is a doubt based on reason and common sense which must logically be derived from the evidence or absence of evidence. While more is required than proof that the accused is probably guilty, a reasonable doubt does not involve proof to an absolute certainty. Such a standard of proof is impossibly high.
https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1543/index.do

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/R/ReasonableDoubt.aspx
 
This is just IMO, I think they got tired of burying or disposing of bodies. Maybe that's why their skidsteer or whatever burned out--digging graves. It would take a lot to premeditate such an equipment purchase I'd think.

Oh, I wasn't implying a premeditation behind purchasing the incinerator to burn corpses, if that's what you mean? I can't necessarily prove that, though I can speculate, and I'm not sure the Crown will go down that route either, as it seems more relevant in the LB or WM case. I remarked on the kind of mindset a person has to burn a man's body to cinders, rather than just dumping him carelessly by the road or in a river (as other criminals have done). Could be due to laziness, but I also suspect cold, deliberate calculation to ensure no evidence points back to the guilty parties. Doesn't show premeditation per se, but guilt? It probably, strongly does. But that's JMO.

And I can speculate that DM had killed before, but I'm not sure I can picture DM and/or MS digging so many graves that they totaled the excavator (also not sure the state of its state had been mentioned in the tweets today, if it had burnt out or not, please correct me if I'm wrong). It's possible that the excavator / skidsteer been used for other purposes, but the Crown will have to shed more light on that, I think.
 
It really makes me wonder what else is about to come out that we had NO idea about? So far, all of it seems to be rather damning as far as DM goes, but for MS? Seems more he was just someone along for the ride. That, woops, forgot to roll on DM at the first chance.

"Along for the ride." At this point that seemed to be DM's style. He involved so many people in his schemes and planning. Apparently he wasn't going down alone. It really makes one wonder and believe DM was the type of person who would get into trouble, always with someone else, DM being the instigator, but always blaming it on the other person(s). If that's the case, were MB and WM the type of parents who would buy DM's lies? The list below is just a few points I thought of off hand.

It's like the meeting between AS and DM in November of 2012, just before WM was (allegedly) murdered by DM. People bought into believing DM wasn't to blame for the lack of contracts....it just had to be AS who was to blame. I think this could stand to show who is to blame for his many failures and who instigated bad business, who had a corrupt and evil mind and who was the driving force for Tim's, Laura's and Wayne's murders.

The best we can now hope for is that our judicial system brings justice for all three of the victims and their loved ones and society as a whole. That DM is removed from society and kept in a tiny cell for the rest of his life. It's just terrible that he's brought so much disgrace to Millard legacy. In reality, it's a blessing to know his grandfather and his father are not here to witness what a disgrace he is. JMHO.

* DM took MS (allegedly) along on test drives,

* involved CN in transporting the trailer to MB's driveway and incinerator from the barn to the bush,
* CN was with him when the toolbox was dropped of at a "friend's" place,

* DM gave CN the DVR to hide or whatever he told her to do with it,

* DM got MS to pick up the toolbox/gun from the "friend's place" to get rid of it. MS tried to sell it and couldn't, so instead he buried it in the forest,

* DM included MS (allegedly) in TB's murder, the clean up, the ripping apart of TB's truck and while keeping him company waiting for the incinerator to do its thing,

* got Shane to order the incinerator or DM ordered it himself and put Shane's name on the order form,

* DM purchase a gun(s) from MWJ,

* DM had AJ and SS working in the hangar when TB's truck was in there, ripped apart,

* DM also brought MS and MM into the hangar while TB's truck was in the hangar.

And I suspect there could be more he included in his demonic plans. For what?! A truck...
ALL MOO.
 
Speculating - Thinking incinerator could have been picked up anywhere btw Btfd & hangar--not necessarily farm. Maybe headed for farm but realized they needed fuel for it otherwise why go to hangar where they might more likely be seen?

I was actually wondering if police were able to find any receipts for propane on DM's banking or credit card info from around the time period in question. Or did DM just always have a full tank at the ready, just in case? One would hate to risk running out of fuel in the middle of a cremation!

The hangar, imo, was much less risky than the Ayr property. Industrial shops don't generally pay a lot of attention to what their business neighbours are doing, and neither do industrial property landlords, in my experience. MOO.

The videotape that records the 2 vehicles showing up with the incinerator in tow, and the firing up of the incinerator... I'm not sure if it was supplied by a neighbouring business, or from the hangar itself before being taken to the bedroom of DM's girlfriend for storage.
 
True, that's a probable scenario. But if scientists and researchers are able to develop techniques to extract DNA from ancient, virtually dehydrated teeth, my hope is that they'll be able to do the same for Bosma's remains. I suppose I'd rather all doubt be removed regarding the incineration of TB's body on DM's farm, but we'll have to see what the Crown comes up with next week. Fingers crossed that the jury will make the right call, with or without DNA verification of the bones.

Edit: But as deurgirni mentioned below, and I've forgotten, the tooth may be burned beyond ability for DNA extraction. The Crown still has plenty circumstantial evidence the Defense will have to answer to, though.

I did some reading the other night, trying to find out at which point bones can no longer provide enough DNA for identification. I read lots of stuff, and found one article that was particularly relevant, but now, of course, I can't find it. I believe it mentioned however, that teeth disappear at a certain temperature... before the bones become unable to give DNA. I agree, they can do amazing things.. but I'm not sure if they can extract DNA from ancient bones and teeth that would tell them which particular human they belonged to.. or whether they can simply tell.. yes human, yes female, yes aged btwn 30-50, yes they've been here for 70-100 years? MOO

I am only speaking for myself... moo.. all of that.. but for me, if TB's blood was actually identified to be on the incinerator.. and male human bones were found inside.. that would be enough for me to take the leap into beyond reasonable doubt that they were his bones. MOO
 
Hmm. I was wondering .... if you want to steal a truck so badly that you're willing to risk murdering someone and spending 25 years in prison, why wouldn't you go all out and steal a 2012 instead of a 2007. Think you may have just hit on the answer!

Perhaps because DM couldn't find anything newer, with that type and size of motor, in as good of shape as TB's, that was a diesel, etc., etc., And if DM was in a hurry to make the race in Mexico by the end of May, he had to find something sooner than later. Not to forget he would have needed to revamp/modify it. Something tells me perhaps 2010 to 2012 models, and what DM wanted in one would have been like finding a needle in a haystack in April or May of 2013. HTH and MOO.
 
This is just IMO, I think they got tired of burying or disposing of bodies. Maybe that's why their skidsteer or whatever burned out--digging graves. It would take a lot to premeditate such an equipment purchase I'd think.

I wonder if LE researched missing persons cases from Ontario from say 3 years before TB's disappearance, to see if it could be worth investigating the possibility that even LB may not necessarily have been the first to disappear?
 
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