Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #7

[otto]

Otto, while I've got you handy, can you please do a side by side? Tia.

Of the culverts?

 

[katydid23]

That is one of the first thoughts I had as well - that the culvert is more likely a place where someone dumps a body.

Yes. That is something that still niggles at me. She grew up around there. She surely knew some beautiful areas to end her life in. I can understand not wanting to have your family find your body at home. But why go to the park n ride? She could have called her commuter friend and said she was not going to work that day. Then she could have gone ANYWHERE to end it. A beautiful field, a nice clear creek, or a lovely mountainside. Why a dirty concrete culvert?

 

[otto]

Wouldnt there be some evidence on her body if she was murdered?
A bruise a bump on the head marks on tbe throat. Scrapes torn clothes?
Something!

Not necessarily. If she was suffocated in her car from someone in the backseat, pushed to the side, driven to the culvert, put into the water while unconscious, there would be no injuries. Furthermore, water is the investigators worst enemy in terms of finding evidence.

She has a cut on a finger on each hand. That could be from the razor in her pocket, and it could be from cutting her fingers on a plastic bag while trying to prevent suffocation. Both a plastic bag and a razor could result in a narrow cut that could be interpreted as due to the razor (which oddly is in her pocket), or a plastic cut.

 

[margarita25]

Wouldnt there be some evidence on her body if she was murdered?
A bruise a bump on the head marks on tbe throat. Scrapes torn clothes?
Something!

Well. Cuts on the fingers (defensive wounds). Blood in the car. Maybe along the handles trying to get out. There might even be a bag and tie overy your head.

Can someone please tell me again how defensive wounds were ruled out. Thanks.

(Sorry, I know I sound like I have an attitude. This just erks me, with all due respect I can not believe how many of you guys are sold on this suicide theory. I respect yall, maybe I am wrong. I will eat dirt. That's why I love this place. Different thoughts, opinions, theories...I'm all ears, I promise.)

Sorry, to answer your question, if he came up behind her in the car, possibly no imo.

Water could wash away other evidence...but as far as her body, I think one can be murdered without other trauma to the body, via a o sphyxiation, but I'm no Dr. G.

 

[PLT]

Yes. That is something that still niggles at me. She grew up around there. She surely knew some beautiful areas to end her life in. I can understand not wanting to have your family find your body at home. But why go to the park n ride? She could have called her commuter friend and said she was not going to work that day. Then she could have gone ANYWHERE to end it. A beautiful field, a nice clear creek, or a lovely mountainside. Why a dirty concrete culvert?

Yes to all this...and.... why bother to text that she probably would ride home with the car pool friend. Yes, she could have been debating her fate at that moment but all of her morning actions indicate to me that she was in the midst of the Monday morning rush to work and intended to put in a normal day until something /someone interfered. I am open to believing she had a breakdown without prior warning and if evidence surfaces that indicates a prior trigger for suicide (although the it's none of my business and may remain private) - I am willing to let go of the homocide theory but not yet, not with the investigation / tests not being completed and the chance that someone restrained her and took her to the culvert.

 

[margarita25]

Yes. That is something that still niggles at me. She grew up around there. She surely knew some beautiful areas to end her life in. I can understand not wanting to have your family find your body at home. But why go to the park n ride? She could have called her commuter friend and said she was not going to work that day. Then she could have gone ANYWHERE to end it. A beautiful field, a nice clear creek, or a lovely mountainside. Why a dirty concrete culvert?

To me this is the bottom line. And she had a .357. And was claustrophobic.

Now, I can understand that when emotional vulnerability hits, it hits, and rationality might go out the door, but let's go with human instinct. Wouldn't she go home and get her gun?

(Ok, I can already see, my "human instinct" statement is going to get challenged. What I mean by this is as quick as painless as possible. In other words, I'm in pain, let's get this over with as quickly and painlessly as possible.)

Again, throw tomatoes at me.

 

[margarita25]

(Otto, we just made similar posts, again.)

 

[margarita25]

Of the culverts?

Yes, please. Don't mean to sound like I take you for granted ("please do a side by side whole I got you handy") lol, but I remember you from Jessica's days, your maps, I wanted to send you a note about it already weeks ago, the culverts, please and thank you. I particularly want to note the proximity of the roads. Thank you.

FTR, ARS in his own words, court docs, etc ., talks about the aspects of "convenience" in his dump.

 

[otto]

Well. Cuts on the fingers (defensive wounds). Blood in the car. Maybe along the handles trying to get out. There might even be a bag and tie nearby.

Can someone please tell me again how defensive wounds were ruled out. Thanks.

(Sorry, I know I sound like I have an attitude. This just erks me, with all due respect I can not believe how many of you guys are sold on this suicide theory. I respect yall ,maybe im wrong. I will eat dirt. That's why I love this place. Different thoughts, opinions, theories...I'm all ears, I promise.)

Sorry, to answer your question, if he came up behind her in the car, possibly no imo.

I suspect that what happened is that the ME discovered a cut on one finger on each hand, looked for a blade, and concluded that the cuts were self-inflicted. That is, the ME will look at cuts to attempt to identify the type of blade that caused the cuts. In this case, the cuts may be narrow. There was a razor blade in Cheryl's pocket. That is most likely how the conclusion was made that the cuts were self-inflicted.

I'm not sold on suicide, but we sometimes have to run down all of the rabbit holes in order to understand whether a theory is feasible.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I suspect that what happened is that the ME discovered a cut on one finger on each hand, looked for a blade, and concluded that the cuts were self-inflicted. That is, the ME will look at cuts to attempt to identify the type of blade that caused the cuts. In this case, the cuts may be narrow. There was a razor blade in Cheryl's pocket. That is most likely how the conclusion was made that the cuts were self-inflicted.

I'm not sold on suicide, but we sometimes have to run down all of the rabbit holes in order to understand whether a theory is feasible.

They have other ways of determining whether a cut is self inflicted... angle, for one.

Article on forensic markers of different types of cuts (homicidal, self-inflicted, accidental )

http://m.forensicmed.webnode.com/wounds/sharp-force-trauma/patterns-of-sharp-force-trauma/

And another. ..

http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/self-inflicted-injury/

In many suicide attempts the individual abandons the method of cutting the wrists and/or throat after a few trial incisions and turns to another kind of self-destruction which is expected to be more effective.

 

[dizzychick]

Coincidentally, I had a conversation with a friend this weekend who married young and now is an empty nester. She is younger than 50 but is at the chapter where it is just her and her husband. Her daughter moved across country and her son will graduate in May and has accepted a job offer abroad.

I, on the other hand, was single most of my life and became a wife/mother when most of my friends had teenagers. This friend and I were very close in high school and early college. When she married we drifted apart, but still keep in touch occasionally. During this weekend's "catch up' phone call, she commented that I was lucky to have a young child and can spend most of my "older life" appreciating the closeness we share. I pointed out that there are pros/cons to both of our paths. She can enjoy the next chapter of life traveling with her husband and visiting her kids and will be around longer for both her kids/grandkids. I expected her to agree but she said - the circle of life is kind of sad and she is happy to see her kids just beginning that cycle. We moved on to other topics but it nagged at me that she was seeing herself at the end of the cycle. Coupled with conversations/comments on this thread - I decided to call her back and take the chance of over-stepping my boundaries. I wanted her to know the facts about hormones, this phase of life, but more importantly - to call someone if she ever felt her circle of life was over just because her kids were not as dependent on her. She assured me that she was fine and has already looked into activities because her husband is not a traveler ad is content to stay home all the time. She also doesn't get along with her daughter's husband and would never impose so there is little chance she will move closer any time soon.

I think this for some, this stage in life can go either way more than we realize so your post really aligned with this conversation.

I didn't see CD as someone who viewed life the same way as my friend because she and her husband seemed to have an active life together and a successful career but what would an outsider like myself know based on a few news articles and posts online. As we all know, appearances can be deceiving. I still feel like it was homocide but only because it's a strong possibility in my view and the fact that there were no signs of a struggle or violent homicide shouldn't be cause to not continue to look for evidence (missing phone, purse, camera footage)...but as time passes these items may become more difficult to locate/obtain. I think /hope LE is still reviewing all angles.

well written post and it made me cry. I have been trying to understand suicide and still what is it in me that just will not let me accept it, even if it turns out to be true? My mom use to say " none of us are going to come out of this alive " so IMO why rush it ? LOL I have been sad and I am somewhere in between you and your friend, im 55 with a 19 year old that is having growing paigns. I have to finish raising this kid before I launch from this world to whatever is next. If he was 10 years older and settled I still would want to hang around to bug him LOL

Unless Cheryl has had some devastating news or health issues, and even then I just cannot fathom killing myself so I just flat do not get it. Rememeber back when LE said they were holding back some news and when we hear it we will know all the answers, or something to that effect. Could this be it, LE knows something she found out and has just not told us?

 

[margarita25]

I am biased. Again, I admit it. I just find it unlikely this woman chose to end her life in the same kind of place that one of the the most ruthless predators decided to dump the torso of his child victim.

 

[otto]

Yes, please. Don't mean to sound like i take you for granted lol, but I remember you from Jessica's days, your maps, I wanted to send you a note about it already weeks ago, the culverts, please and thank you. I particularly want to note the proximity of the roads. Thank you.

FtR, ARS in his own words, court docs, etc talks abut the aspects to of convenience in his dumps.

Work is really busy right now, but I will have a look at it later this week.

What we know about Jessica Ridgeway is that she was not the first person to be attacked by the perp, but she was the first person to be murdered. We also know that he targeted an older woman first, but was unsuccessful, so he then chose a child. He tried to over-powered the first victim by putting chloroform over her face. He hid parts of her body in the culvert, and it was coincidence that the road crew was cleaning the culverts shortly after she was murdered - and she was found.

 

[1&2&3]

Is there blood on her coat or coat pocket where she put the razor blade back into her pocket?

What did she wrap her fingers up in as she walked to the culvert? Were ther blood drippings around her car or found on the ground as she started on her walk?

 

[margarita25]

I suspect that what happened is that the ME discovered a cut on one finger on each hand, looked for a blade, and concluded that the cuts were self-inflicted. That is, the ME will look at cuts to attempt to identify the type of blade that caused the cuts. In this case, the cuts may be narrow. There was a razor blade in Cheryl's pocket. That is most likely how the conclusion was made that the cuts were self-inflicted.

I'm not sold on suicide, but we sometimes have to run down all of the rabbit holes in order to understand whether a theory is feasible.

Absolutely. I've been all ears and I'm still not convinced. I have learned a lot, had no idea people do kill themselves this way. I'm just not so sure Cheryl did, jmo. But I am All About hearing how it could possible!

 

[otto]

well written post and it made me cry. I have been trying to understand suicide and still what is it in me that just will not let me accept it, even if it turns out to be true? My mom use to say " none of us are going to come out of this alive " so IMO why rush it ? LOL I have been sad and I am somewhere in between you and your friend, im 55 with a 19 year old that is having growing paigns. I have to finish raising this kid before I launch from this world to whatever is next. If he was 10 years older and settled I still would want to hang around to bug him LOL

Unless Cheryl has had some devastating news or health issues, and even then I just cannot fathom killing myself so I just flat do not get it. Rememeber back when LE said they were holding back some news and when we hear it we will know all the answers, or something to that effect. Could this be it, LE knows something she found out and has just not told us?

I think what investigators were holding back was the fact that they were leaning towards suicide, and that information is "sensitive". That is, it's no one's business how she was found if it was suicide.

 

[margarita25]

Ok, here is my opinion/theory. LE knoooows it isn't suicide.

 

[otto]

Is there blood on her coat or coat pocket where she put the razor blade back into her pocket?

What did she wrap her fingers up in as she walked to the culvert? Were ther blood drippings around her car or found on the ground as she started on her walk?

After 6 days in water, evidence of blood on her coat or in her coat pocket would be long gone.

There was blood on the exterior of her car, on the passenger seat, and on the console. A large amount of animal blood was found on the passenger seat floor of her vehicle.

 

[margarita25]

Work is really busy right now, but I will have a look at it later this week.

What we know about Jessica Ridgeway is that she was not the first person to be attacked by the perp, but she was the first person to be murdered. We also know that he targeted an older woman first, but was unsuccessful, so he then chose a child. He tried to over-powered the first victim by putting chloroform over her face. He hid parts of her body in the culvert, and it was coincidence that the road crew was cleaning the culverts shortly after she was murdered - and she was found.

Yep.

:rose:

 

[1&2&3]

If she had gotten a major health diagnoses, would it have shown up on the autopsy?

If so, then surely the family is aware of it by now from the autopsy.

I don't think this is the problem.