Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

[24Roses]

In regards to the search and the perp joining in...I am wondering at what point they would have interjected themselves. If memory serves me correctly, during those first hours it's possible that only LE, first responders, and family were the only people involved in the search. Unless the family had called around to friends of Elizabeth's to see if the girls were at their home (and actually requested assistance in physically searching) who all would have known to go look?
Did someone just happen to show up at the park wondering what all the fuss was about? From reading MSM it sounded like it was really just Lyric's family and LE at Meyer's Lake - I don't remember mention of Heather or Drew being there. I may be wrong, but for some reason I have a memory that Heather didn't participate in the searches, but stayed back in case they came home (which makes sense in case they finally showed up).

I just don't remember seeing the masses of help come in to search until later on that evening and then the following days. I remember an article about people saying they had seen people in the park with flashlights looking around in the woods, and we know Tammy mentioned the family did their own search of the wooded area until LE finally put up the crime scene tape and got everyone out of there.

I just wonder if anyone other than family was even aware that real searches were underway until several hours after they were long gone. And if those people were aware, were they also searching in areas that (in hind sight) should have been taped off immediately? If someone else's DNA shows up in the taped off area, it's possible they would have a valid explanation as to why it's there...they helped in the search.

The question being - Should that person have even known about the search?

I know of one person who searched over the weekend but not on that Friday. I remember there being a short story about it on the 5:00 and 6:00 p.m. news but nothing real extensive until later that night and no requests for people to help search until at least Saturday. We don't have weekend noon news in this area so if anything was mentioned it would have been on the evening news or online.

 

[Bootsctr]

I know of one person who searched over the weekend but not on that Friday. I remember there being a short story about it on the 5:00 and 6:00 p.m. news but nothing real extensive until later that night and no requests for people to help search until at least Saturday. We don't have weekend noon news in this area so if anything was mentioned it would have been on the evening news or online.

The bicyclist?

 

[24Roses]

The bicyclist?

No a woman I used to work with who lives in a small town a couple counties away from Evansdale. She doesn't know the family, but just wanted to help.

 

[carbuff]

I just have trouble believing that the perpetrator feels terrible about this crime. How could you feel that bad and not have anyone pick up on it?

I am not saying Rich is wrong that this might be the person's first murder, but I cannot buy into the feeling terrible idea. Now the being too chicken concept is more believable to me!

All JMO.

I dunno. People might attribute it to the wrong thing.

The person might even try to commit suicide and still not have their close relatives admit what was going on. Ascribe it to drugs, or even normal grief.

 

[Bootsctr]

:bump: for discussion of possible suspect

I love cold cases. What I like to to do is find a sick person in society and then link them to a crime. It's the exact opposite of what the police do, and for good reason. I have a person in mind that may have committed this crime. This person was a life-long resident of Bremer county (Seven Bridges) from 1958-1999. In 1995 he was arrested for a sex crime on a victim under 12 years of age. He pleaded to a serious misdemeanor charge and spent 10 years on the sex offender registry. While out on bail and just 2 months before he was sentenced in October 1995, a woman was murdered and her body dumped 12 miles away from Seven Bridges on the outskirts of Waterloo. That case is cold as well, the link is below. The suspect was living just outside of Waverly at the time, but he worked in Waterloo. In 1999 he moved away from Bremer county. I imagine being a sex offender in a small city was embarrassing for his family. Even though he moved, it was not that far. He currently lives 51 miles from Evansdale. The suspect grew up about 13 miles west of Seven Bridges on a farm. He is an avid outdoors-man, fishing, boating, canoeing, and hunting. I can only imagine he would be familiar with Seven Bridges. I've gone over and over the maps of the places where the girls were taken, and where they were found. The most glaring thing that I could come up with these 2 spots have in common, are rivers. There is a canoe launch at Seven Bridges, and just south, under the interstate where the girls bikes were found is the Cedar River and a canoe/kayak launch. The police stressed how isolated Seven Bridges is, and they're right if you're traveling by car. But the Wapsipinicon River is an expressway for kayaking, canoeing, and floating. I recently moved to eastern Iowa and only recently learned about the many folks that float down these rivers for fun during the summer. On July 13th, 2012 there was a float scheduled just a few miles north of Seven Bridges starting in Tripoli. These kinds of events are popular in the area. So are kayaking, canoeing, and floats on the Cedar River. I always thought maybe where the Evansdale Nature Trail almost intersects with the Cedar Valley trail not far from where the bikes were found he was waiting. Maybe he lures the girls with the promise of a boat ride? My suspect owns one of those 5 person paddle boats popular for river floating. He also owns some canoes. Do a YOUTUBE search on Wapsipinicon or Cedar River canoeing. It's incredibly isolated! He floats the girls down stream to Gilbertville Park. His white boxy SUV/Van is waiting. My suspect owns a boxy white truck/van. Unfortunately, I know this pile of garbage convicted sex offender. In the 2 years I've known him I found him to be manipulative and mean. 2 weeks ago I called the tip line, the Sheriff's Department, and the FBI and gave them his name. Maybe they looked at him previously and he's clean. Maybe not, we'll see. The thing I love most about cold cases is that if all the parts fit together, the case would not be cold. Somewhere out there, there's a very stupid person that lucked out against the odds of getting caught.
https://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/angela-buck/
http://www.mycountyparks.com/County...belt/Events/1968/Wapsi-River-Kayak-Float.aspx

 

[Considering]

So glad to see you posting again SS!

1. I think Lyric and Lizzy probably knew Grandma never left when she said she would and while they wouldn't be hours late, they knew being a few minutes late would result in only a quick scolding - in one ear and out the other.

2. I'm not local, but I have yet to see anything considered MSM about the girls asking for directions.

3. Agree definitely! Local... and 7-Bridges - local.

4. What was the holiday? There were lots of local events going on not necessarily in Evansdale, but Waterloo. There was a wrestling event, and some sort of religious gathering which I always thought could have attracted Klunder to the area - thought he would visit with his RSO friend at Meyers Lake.

5. There were reports of a white older model SUV vehicle. Pretty generic, but still I believe at least 2 people reported this vehicle. No link : (

I just can't imagine anyone being capable of killing two innocent little girls. I never could bring myself to believe the FBI lady talking about the girls still being alive. When they weren't found by Saturday morning, I always felt they were dead. Even Elizabeth Smart's speech didn't stir me to believe the girls were being kept alive. May they rest in peace!

Here's a link for #5:

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_647e7e0c-6ea1-5f71-80e8-8b56a9700c47.html

Other details that may help jog memories include an older white sport utility vehicle that was seen on Arbutus Avenue near Meyers Lake, where the girls' bikes were found.

“We did have some information that was verified and credible information that there were three different people who saw a white SUV on the 13th along the east side of the lake.” Smock said. “We’re still looking for information on that.”

 

[dotr]

Maybe the perp does not care at all - maybe he has already brushed off any pangs of guilt he may have had?
He might be getting an enormous kick out of " outsmarting everyone", and feel proud that he had the power to turn a community upside down? Maybe he is very pleased with the lovely park, developed in the girls'honour?
Maybe he spends time there?
speculation.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I just have trouble believing that the perpetrator feels terrible about this crime. How could you feel that bad and not have anyone pick up on it?

I am not saying Rich is wrong that this might be the person's first murder, but I cannot buy into the feeling terrible idea. Now the being too chicken concept is more believable to me!

All JMO.

My impression, from what Rich Kelly said, was that this individual is not someone who has a high level of social skills. He couldn't, for instance, groom victims over a long period of time (months), probably because he doesn't inspire parents and other people in authority as being trustworthy.

Rich Kelly also suggested that there was probably a trigger event, such as being laid off or fired. If so, then the perp had a built in excuse for feeling bad. Who wouldn't feel bad if laid off or fired?

 

[gregjrichards]

Maybe the perp does not care at all - maybe he has already brushed off any pangs of guilt he may have had?
He might be getting an enormous kick out of " outsmarting everyone", and feel proud that he had the power to turn a community upside down? Maybe he is very pleased with the lovely park, developed in the girls'honour?
Maybe he spends time there?
speculation.

It's chilling to think of the girls killer spending time in their memorial park.

 

[Marilynilpa]

Bumping the girls to page 1.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Just saw this on twitter and thought, well, maybe whoever this body belongs to might bring out whoever did this to the girls. I'm set on two different people & plots though. One I turned into Smock. I wonder if it was passed on?

Ron Steele KWWL ‏@ronsteelekwwl 34m34 minutes ago
Bones found in an alley behind a Waterloo home. Unknown if human or other. Waterloo has 15 unsolved cases of missing persons. @kwwl

https://twitter.com/ronsteelekwwl/with_replies

Jessica Hartman KWWL ‏@JessicaKWWL 49m49 minutes ago
Waterloo police investigating bones found behind home on Conger St. Unclear if they are human at this time. @KWWL

oh wow

A witness told KWWL he found what he believed to be human bones, possibly those of a child. Police confirmed they were bones, but were not sure if they are human remains. A physician is also on the scene.

http://cedarrapidsnewschannel.com/i...loo&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Eta, that's 7 miles or 12 minutes from Meyer Lake.

 

[Dr. Know?]

False alarm, my apologies. But it's good news.

Police: bones found near Waterloo home are animal bones

http://www.kwwl.com/story/31708022/2016/04/12/police-bones-found-near-home-in-waterloo

 

[BelieveinUFO]

False alarm, my apologies. But it's good news.

Police: bones found near Waterloo home are animal bones

http://www.kwwl.com/story/31708022/2016/04/12/police-bones-found-near-home-in-waterloo

when this case came up in 2013, i did fb snooping and found a person who should have been investigated. i can't simply pass in this info because of what i think without proof. But i have snap shots of that fb profile along with comments.

Now that this case has turned cold, i need information on where to send these and who will investigate it properly.

 

[pearl]

putting the girls back on page 1

 

[Bootsctr]

when this case came up in 2013, i did fb snooping and found a person who should have been investigated. i can't simply pass in this info because of what i think without proof. But i have snap shots of that fb profile along with comments.

Now that this case has turned cold, i need information on where to send these and who will investigate it properly.

From Considering's link:

"Anyone with information is asked to call the Tip Line at 232-6682 or Cedar Valley Crime Stoppers at (855) 300-8477 or email at ourmissingiowagirls@dps.state.ia.us"

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_647e7e0c-6ea1-5f71-80e8-8b56a9700c47.html

 

[Bootsctr]

"Statistically, only 15 dual abductions have been documented since the FBI started compiling offender data in the 1970s."

"Since 1974, the number of times that an offender abducted two girls at the same time and took them for whatever his purposes were was 15," Smock said. "So, since 1974, in 40 years, there were only 15 times in the whole country where this happened. One of these individuals was Michael Klunder, because he took the two girls from Charles City some-20 years ago."

"Detectives with the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigations have expanded their canvas of sex offenders beyond Black Hawk County, he said."

Also from Considering's link: http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_647e7e0c-6ea1-5f71-80e8-8b56a9700c47.html

 

[watcher9]

"Statistically, only 15 dual abductions have been documented since the FBI started compiling offender data in the 1970s."

"Since 1974, the number of times that an offender abducted two girls at the same time and took them for whatever his purposes were was 15," Smock said. "So, since 1974, in 40 years, there were only 15 times in the whole country where this happened. One of these individuals was Michael Klunder, because he took the two girls from Charles City some-20 years ago."

"Detectives with the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigations have expanded their canvas of sex offenders beyond Black Hawk County, he said."

Also from Considering's link: http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_647e7e0c-6ea1-5f71-80e8-8b56a9700c47.html

I read this as if they were counting the 15 as the number of times, not offenders.
I wonder if they counted Klunder twice?
Do we have a list of the offenders?
How many of the offenders were caught right after the dual abductions?
If they were not, did they continue or change their pattern going forward?
Are any of them still alive?

 

[Bootsctr]

I read this as if they were counting the 15 as the number of times, not offenders.
I wonder if they counted Klunder twice?
Do we have a list of the offenders?
How many of the offenders were caught right after the dual abductions?
If they were not, did they continue or change their pattern going forward?
Are any of them still alive?

Excellent questions. I think they would have to count Klunder twice if they are counting the number of times a dual abduction occurred which, unless they included Klunder's abduction of Kathlynn and Dee, would now be 16 times. I bet we could come up with a list somewhere. What were the two sisters, I believe, that were abducted back in the 70s and the suspects were just recently arrested? If we are using Klunder as an example, I don't think he changed his pattern at all.

Oh, does the #15 include Elizabeth and Lyric? If not, then we are up to 17. He cited the FBI as his source (and that is only from the 1970s), so maybe we can access some of that information from their website....

 

[carbuff]

And there are quite a number of missing people, mostly girls but some boys, who went missing together and might or might not have been abducted. Pretty sure they aren't counting them.


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[watcher9]

Excellent questions. I think they would have to count Klunder twice if they are counting the number of times a dual abduction occurred which, unless they included Klunder's abduction of Kathlynn and Dee, would now be 16 times. I bet we could come up with a list somewhere. What were the two sisters, I believe, that were abducted back in the 70s and the suspects were just recently arrested? If we are using Klunder as an example, I don't think he changed his pattern at all.

Oh, does the #15 include Elizabeth and Lyric? If not, then we are up to 17. He cited the FBI as his source (and that is only from the 1970s), so maybe we can access some of that information from their website....

That would have been the Lyon sisters. The perp(s) may have been from the Welch family. No record of past offenses or trial yet.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?97-Sheila-and-Katherine-Lyon

Another case with boys, Westley Allen Dodd had history (wiki), took/killed two brothers, multiple singles before/after.executed 1993.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ictims)-Seattle-1980-s&highlight=westley+dodd