Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #4

[Frankie1972]

Thank you for clarifying this, I remmeber it originally taking about 30 messages to get a story out of you that was coherent. That last sentence hugely clarifys the situation.

So it is likely that car your mate saw with the brake lights was the CSK, and if the victim and perp were out of sight then your friend could not have seen the CSK easily just pull up knock her out and taken her to the kill spot, how long were you guys at the bus stop for, do you remmeber hearing any screams or seeing Lance Williams face out and about that night?

We were at the bus stop for about 30 mins and we did not hear anyone or see LW that night

 

[Elwood_1]

At 2am there would have been traffic (CBV patrons and HJ's drive through visitors) in the car park. Where SS was - very little traffic.

Both CG and SS were heading to Mosman Park. JR - who knows but her home was in the other direction.

So if the girls got into a car, the CSK likely maintained for some time that he was heading the same way. So enroute from Claremont to Mosman Park, where did he stop? What excuse did he use? If he did in fact cut their throats, he would have needed a place that was secluded. CG allegedly had a head wound, something that maybe a firepoker would make. How did this fit in?

He most likely had to stop somewhere secluded. How did he explain this to the girls? Did he have a gun or knife? Did he pull over under the guise of breaking down and then assault them inside or outside the car?

A gun or knife works because he could have turned around and gone to Karrakatta or Minim Cove "We're going to a secluded spot, I'm going to rape you and then let you go. Stay calm and you won't get hurt"

To get the girls to a secluded spot without alerting them would have been hard. There's not many secluded spots between Claremont and Mosman Park. I'm leaning towards him having a weapon to control them.


On JR

- If she accepted a lift then she was probably heading in a different direction (Wembley or Shenton Park). I'd assume either her friends or parents in Shenton Park because Wembley isn't easily accessible from Claremont.
- He picked up both SS and CG when the chances were they were heading west. Easy for a person offering a lift to guess the right offer (you don't want to offer someone a lift by saying you're going to Shenton Park when the victim wants to go to Mosman Park. CG was an easy assumption as she was walking in that direction. SS was an educated guess (if she was going the other way she would have used the phone box on Bay View Tce).
- But JR? Was she walking towards Shenton Park? (meaning he may have needed a different pull over area if pulling over was his MO)
- For some unlikely reason was she walking west along Gugeri?
- Or was she still just standing there? If so, the CSK must have had a compelling story to get her into the car.

If the girls accepted lifts I think it's more likely he controlled them with a weapon to get to his local kill site. I lean towards Karrakatta.

Bart: JR. If she was walking NE along Gugeri it would be a pretty short drive into Karrakatta, but he had a bad experience there before. Why not cross the railway and go into Shenton College. That would be pretty deserted at that time of night, and he would only be there long enough to drug her. "Oh, I need to pee, can I just pull in here for a second", and he could be on her, and moving again within a couple of minutes.

I'm really curious as to how he got them into the car. Grabbing them directly off the street would be incredibly risky if you tried it time after time. Once they are in the car you would need to be very decisive in your actions, and preferably stationary and in a quiet place. You would need to be strong enough to carry it off, but non threatening, or you would have problems approaching them initially.

Bart, I think you are right that there was a weapon somehow involved, but keeping hold of it and subduing them at the same time if they resisted would be very difficult. It is also a good way to get cut or shot yourself, and this guy doesn't strike me as a hero. Anything but. Explaining a bullet hole in your door can be awkward too, especially when it was clearly fired from inside. I wonder if he did a Birnie and drugged them somehow. 'Here, have a drink' type thing.

Or chloroform. There is actually a You Tube video on how to make it. Bleach and acetone. That would be pretty quick and clean if you quickly pulled into a closed servo and jumped them. It is volatile too, so it would be hard to detect later, and wouldn't leave traces in a vehicle. Anyone could pile on a girl in the front of a car like that. You wouldn't need to know judo, or anything else. Just be quick. Follow with a couple of roofies or sleeping tablets, and you are golden.

Then you could move them at your leisure, and like I have posted previously, the worst thing you have done at that point is to be driving with an unconscious chick in the back seat of your car who looks really drunk, and can't remember anything. There is no law against that...if you have a good lawyer and there are no witnesses.

The following is a local article about two brothers who appear to have murdered their neighbors outside Seattle last week. It is quite a long one, but there is a lot of detail about the problems that they had with blood getting everywhere, and their failed efforts to deal with it. I really don't think the CSK victims were cut and then transported. It is just too dangerous and messy. I still think that they were transported alive to somewhere close to the dump site. When exactly that happened I'm not too sure about. And if I were the CSK I wouldn't cut at all if I could avoid it.

http: //www. seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/car-driven-by-brothers-sought-in-arlington-slayings-found-in-arizona/

 

[Bartholemeus]

I would assume Shenton College would not be accessible by car. No one is sure if the cemetery was accessible by car (did he walk her in from Karella St?). I'm also quietly confident the girls weren't drugged.

This is my best theory;

1. The girls accepted a lift. CG and SS heading towards Mosman Park, JR towards Shenton Park. The CSK is also responsible for Karrakatta but learns that waiting in Rowe Park is too small a catchment area. He plans the murders meticulously and realises he might wait all night and have no girls walk past. He realises he has to be closer to Claremont but this means he has to change his abduction method because a blitz attack is too risky. He may have already tried a blitz attack at the back of CBV and concluded that blitz attack okay in isolated parkland but not okay on main roads or built up areas. The Lakeway Drive in is another that could be linked.
2. The CSK pulls a knife (maybe a fire poker) and has somehow disabled the passenger door from opening. Maybe part of his pitch was they'd have to sit in the back because passenger door was broken.
3. He tells them he's going to rape them and if they comply he will let them go. SS has to history to go on so takes him at face value. JR knows about SS but is hoping this is a different guy. CG quickly remembers her Mum telling her about the serial killer and fights like 10 liquored up Irishmen. He has to pacify her by hitting her over the head with a tool that has a pointed end. Perhaps a fire poker.
4. He first and foremost a rapist. The murders are more about avoiding detection. A bag worked for Karrakatta but the risk of being detected by DNA makes him to decide that he must kill them and dump them
5. Once he abducts and controls the girls he takes them to his intermediary/rape site. This is close because the further out of the city he drove the more the girls would have realised they aren't coming back and would put up a fight. His rape site could be Karrakatta, Lakeway Drive in, Allen Park, Fortview Rd, Seaview Golf Club or somewhere similar.
6. JR was naked when she was found but CG was not raped and was fully clothed. She told the CSK she couldn't have sex because she had her period. The CSK was either sexually inexperienced or the thought of having sex with a girl on her period disgusted him. This might be another point where he hit her over the head with his weapon.
6. He then cuts their throats. Puts the girls in the boot of his car. Probably plastic lined.
7 He drives them to the pre-determined drop zones.
8. He dumps SS south but much further out. It's pure luck that no one stumbles across her - but she is further out with less chance of being detected. He dumps JR south because it worked last time but he decides to go closer to the city because the first time he learnt that he needed more time. He does his recon and decides Wellard gives him a 1:15 turn around for a dump whilst giving him a reasonable chance of delaying detection. He also brings his abduction time in from 2am to 12pm, thereby giving him more time. SS must have been tight - only 3 hours from abduction to sunrise. Once JR is discovered he decides to do his dump site recon north of the city. He sticks to the same MO as he did with JR.

 

[billywhizz]

Shenton college founded in 2001. Not accessible because not there.

 

[JackHigh]

I really don't think the CSK victims were cut and then transported.

Garrote maybe?

Would fit in with a blitz attack, doesnt cut as deep as a knife but will leave neck wounds similar to a knife in a badly decomposed body, not messy in the initial event.

Telephone cord is mentioned as a method.

Interstingly its use is taught to special forces as a means of quick, quiet assasination...

Thats where my money is.

 

[iknowwhatyoudid]

Hi Bart

I respect everything you say and you obviously have a very knowledgeable grasp of the case. What I'm interested in knowing is why you think Lance Williams is your most likely POI. You must be pretty sure of this as you have him favourite odds wise and you have mentioned a few times you think a fire poker was used....don't think that went unnoticed

Could you please provide a rundown of the evidence or your reasoning for him being number one. I'm not disputing him as the CSK or anything as I think we are all aware no one is really sure who it is but in my eyes the evidence and stories about him lean me into thinking it would be unlikely to be him.

Its interesting that someone a few pages ago said they were speaking to a detective who told him that they are pretty sure they know its LW but they just cant pin it on him and then ElleAU just a few posts ago said thats its a common thing that people, particularly in Perth, knows someone who knows someone who said something and the rumour mill has a lot of crazy stories going around. So for those reasons its hard to know who to believe and what people are making up.

As you have obviously read the Bigfooty 133 page thread on this one I was reading the first 5 pages or so of it the other day and people there had claimed to have been picked up by LW or they know him personally and they are certain it couldnt have been him. There was one poster that was picked up a few times in a yellow car and he was adamant he was just a loner that was after some friends etc. Of course LW might be the master illusionist and how much credence can you cant be 100% sure people posting on Bigfooty are the real deal but I still think it must hold some weight what they have said.

I also cant understand how LW would have evaded detection over the 20 years or so he has been in the radar. Wouldn't he have cracked at sometime or wouldn't something surely have come up that would pin him to this.....or is it simply just that they cant pin it on him. I just don't understand this whole scenario.

Some other things that come to mind without much thought. Wouldn't it be likely that if he picked up that police officer in that sting, and if you think the CSK is linked to Karrakatta and a blitz attack (which seems to be the consensus here) then he would have blitzed her. Instead he dropped her off on the side of the road. I'm thinking that if he had 3/3 successful murders and no stories to be really considered where someone was let go then the odds of just letting someone go are small. If it was LW picking up and killing the 3 girl then it sounds to me like he was vey good and efficient at it and not someone who picks up lots of people, gains a lot of Perthite attention doing that, and still chooses who to attack and can get away with it.

If a fire poker was missing from his house wouldnt they surely be able to match that up with injuries to CG as you are assuming he hit her over the head with it. Would they not have DNA evidence from somewhere else as they shook his house down.

Would it really be possible for someone like LW to not only attract young girls into his car but to subdue them, kill them and carry the bodies to the dump site all with leaving no evidence behind. If they stopped him after the female police officer sting wouldnt they have combed his car and found plastic lining, strangling wire etc etc or was he really that selective and lucky.

As I say I am writing this without much knowledge on him but if you read those first pages of Bigfooty I feel it paints a good picture of why he is unlikely. Not saying you are wrong or anything just that I know you must have a very good reason and it would be interesting to hear and beneficial to this forum.

 

[Bartholemeus]

What I'm interested in knowing is why you think Lance Williams is your most likely POI. You must be pretty sure of this as you have him favourite odds wise.

The only thing I'm sure of is that he is the most likely POI. This is a purely objective opinion as the circumstantial evidence is greater with him than anyone else. Does it mean he's the CSK? Of course not - the favourite doesn't always win the Melbourne Cup or the Brownlow Medal.

Subjectively, I think in this case the favourite is the winner.

Could you please provide a rundown of the evidence or your reasoning for him being number one. I'm not disputing him as the CSK or anything as I think we are all aware no one is really sure who it is but in my eyes the evidence and stories about him lean me into thinking it would be unlikely to be him.

1. During a period when police were conducting surveillance, LW was the only guy stalking women in the area.
2. Upon investigating him, it was discovered he stalked women every Thurs to Sun night
3. He was meticulous in routine. Same time every night. Not sort of the same time, exactly to the minute same time (2 variations). Same routine every night
4. He failed a lie detector test. So did 12 others (approximately 25%)
5. He was measured when under interrogation often taking minutes to carefully answer his questions
6. He always kept his cool. He never spat the dummy about the intense interrogation and accusation. Well respected psychologists agree that this is very unusual behaviour if innocent.
7. He had no alibi for any of the nights
8. He has a history of immense discipline. He was able to give up drinking, smoking and gambling cold turkey. If anyone is able to give of raping/killing he could probably do it
9. He had his car cleaned and detailed a few days after one of the girls went missing
10. CG had a wound on her head. A fire poker was missing form a set of fire tools in his parent's house. The end of the poker fit the wound.
11. The killing stopped when he was identified as a POI
12. He has never tried to sue police.
13. It is also my understanding that he was within a teenager's upper lip hair of being charged

All circumstantial evidence. But there is more circumstantial evidence for him that anyone else.

I hear lots of people claim it's not him, or have the opinion it's definitely not him but it's typically based on misinformation. I myself was also a victim to the well trotted out line "there's no way this meek and mild d1ckweed could pull off such a crime" and "police fitted up Mallard and they did it to LW too". I agree they discovered LW and tried to fit the case around him but that doesn't mean he didn't do it.

I have no problem if people don't think he's the guy. Not everyone should be compelled to back the favourite. But anyone who thinks there's another suspect with a more compelling case, I'd love to hear it.

Its interesting that someone a few pages ago said they were speaking to a detective who told him that they are pretty sure they know its LW but they just cant pin it on him and then ElleAU just a few posts ago said thats its a common thing that people, particularly in Perth, knows someone who knows someone who said something and the rumour mill has a lot of crazy stories going around. So for those reasons its hard to know who to believe and what people are making up.

This is common with all similar cases. Recently a rumour went around that LW would go into Subi hotels and in the sardine like crowd, ejaculate. Sounds like complete BS to me.

I've been posting here for a while and on BF and everyone knows the posters who can be trusted and which ones continually serve up rubbish.

As you have obviously read the Bigfooty 133 page thread on this one I was reading the first 5 pages or so of it the other day and people there had claimed to have been picked up by LW or they know him personally and they are certain it couldnt have been him. There was one poster that was picked up a few times in a yellow car and he was adamant he was just a loner that was after some friends etc. Of course LW might be the master illusionist and how much credence can you cant be 100% sure people posting on Bigfooty are the real deal but I still think it must hold some weight what they have said.

That was me and I can assure I got in LW's car on multiple occasions.

I also cant understand how LW would have evaded detection over the 20 years or so he has been in the radar. Wouldn't he have cracked at sometime or wouldn't something surely have come up that would pin him to this.....or is it simply just that they cant pin it on him. I just don't understand this whole scenario.

My understanding is they all but had him. The reason why could have evaded capture;

1. No DNA
2. He stuck to his minimalist story
3. If he is CSK and CSK did Karra then they would have had to have misplaced Karra DNA

His car, house and flat weren't searched until well after it's reasonable for any trace evidence to disappear

Some other things that come to mind without much thought. Wouldn't it be likely that if he picked up that police officer in that sting, and if you think the CSK is linked to Karrakatta and a blitz attack (which seems to be the consensus here) then he would have blitzed her. Instead he dropped her off on the side of the road. I'm thinking that if he had 3/3 successful murders and no stories to be really considered where someone was let go then the odds of just letting someone go are small. If it was LW picking up and killing the 3 girl then it sounds to me like he was vey good and efficient at it and not someone who picks up lots of people, gains a lot of Perthite attention doing that, and still chooses who to attack and can get away with it.

After CG the media coverage was intense. When LW was picked up he had no kit (knife, gun or whatever the CSK may have used). He may have been doing a dry run to see if surveillance was out and about.

If a fire poker was missing from his house wouldnt they surely be able to match that up with injuries to CG as you are assuming he hit her over the head with it. Would they not have DNA evidence from somewhere else as they shook his house down.

It matched but that doesn't mean it was the weapon. If someone was willing to testify in court it had to be that brand/model of fire poker then he would have probably been charged. It's nothing more than circumstantial albeit compelling.

Would it really be possible for someone like LW to not only attract young girls into his car but to subdue them, kill them and carry the bodies to the dump site all with leaving no evidence behind.

It was evidently possible for someone, why not LW?

If they stopped him after the female police officer sting wouldnt they have combed his car and found plastic lining, strangling wire etc etc or was he really that selective and lucky.

Potentially a dry run or potentially he isn't the CSK.

As I say I am writing this without much knowledge on him but if you read those first pages of Bigfooty I feel it paints a good picture of why he is unlikely. Not saying you are wrong or anything just that I know you must have a very good reason and it would be interesting to hear and beneficial to this forum.

That was a misinformed me painting that picture. Upon an odyssey of investigation I have discovered that he comfortable and deservedly has the most circumstantial evidence against him.

 

[elleAU]

Bart, in your opinion, was LW well known, or easily recognised at the time as a "harmless loner" (going back to the descriptions you gave as Bunsen et al on BF)? Was it common knowledge that this guy offered men/women lifts in the Claremont area? Do you think it would be at all likely that at least 1 of these women had encountered or heard of him before and had a certain level of trust getting into the car with him?

 

[BenJones84]

They have DNA, its either partial or full.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Bart, in your opinion, was LW well known, or easily recognised at the time as a "harmless loner" (going back to the descriptions you gave as Bunsen et al on BF)? Was it common knowledge that this guy offered men/women lifts in the Claremont area? Do you think it would be at all likely that at least 1 of these women had encountered or heard of him before and had a certain level of trust getting into the car with him?

I don't believe he was well known. There was a guy called the walking man. 50+ years old, blue t-shirt, green shorts, KT26 shoes. Walked the highway all day long. Everyone knew him. I don't believe LW was known though. I only knew him because I got lifts off him. I was hitch hiking. I used to sometimes see his car driving up and down the highway but I think I only noticed it because I knew who he was.

 

[Bartholemeus]

They have DNA, its either partial or full.

You know this because......

?

 

[88mph]

All this talk about CG head wounds is new to me. Where has this information come from and is it credible?

 

[Farm Boy]

Hey guys. I am a first time poster. I won't be posting much (I just lurk). But I was interested in something posted a couple of pages back about conjecture over throats being cut - or strangled (whatever). I was thinking. After the CSK bungled Karra (by strangulation perhaps), that he cut the throat of the next victim (SS), didn't anticipate the mess it would make, and that is why no body was found (too much DNA on it, or whatever)?. Anyway, then the next victim (JR), he stripped naked because he was paranoid over the mess he made previously (clothes, blood, etc). Perhaps he mastered his strangulation with a knife on hand (with JR), and that on the last victim (CG) he was confident he could strangle. I know it is hypothetical, and I don't bring much to the table here. It was just playing on my mind.

 

[Elwood_1]

Shenton college founded in 2001. Not accessible because not there.

For the life of me I can't remember what was there before. Was it vacant land or an old industrial site.

Anyone?

There are quite a few sites around there even now that you could whip into in the wee small hours for some discreet fun if you were that way inclined.

 

[Elwood_1]

If it was me, as soon as I felt I was under surveillance I would pick up every chick I could, and make 100% SURE that she was given a happy and safe ride home to prove that I wasn't the one they were looking for. I would pick up anyone I could and drive them straight home. Even buy them a burger.

I would love to know what happened with the policewoman. That was a major SNAFU there. He put her out on the side of the road? Did she get hysterical, say she was a cop, or what? That would be a really interesting story to know.

 

[Bartholemeus]

For the life of me I can't remember what was there before. Was it vacant land or an old industrial site.

Anyone?

There are quite a few sites around there even now that you could whip into in the wee small hours for some discreet fun if you were that way inclined.

Hospital buildings.

 

[Sutton]

Garrote maybe?

Would fit in with a blitz attack, doesnt cut as deep as a knife but will leave neck wounds similar to a knife in a badly decomposed body, not messy in the initial event.

Telephone cord is mentioned as a method.

Interstingly its use is taught to special forces as a means of quick, quiet assasination...

Thats where my money is.

A garrote will cut in a complete circle around the neck, not just in a slash across the front. There would be other differences as well, depending on the cord material.

If the victims had advanced decomposition and insect activity on the front of their necks and no injury on the back of their necks, then it would exclude garrote. IMO.

Welcome to thread, JackHigh.

 

[Bartholemeus]

If it was me, as soon as I felt I was under surveillance I would pick up every chick I could, and make 100% SURE that she was given a happy and safe ride home to prove that I wasn't the one they were looking for. I would pick up anyone I could and drive them straight home. Even buy them a burger.

I would love to know what happened with the policewoman. That was a major SNAFU there. He put her out on the side of the road? Did she get hysterical, say she was a cop, or what? That would be a really interesting story to know.

DM wrote that she was spooked and believed LW picked up on it and just dropped her at Glyde St rather than to her door. How true it is, we don't know.

 

[Bartholemeus]

For the life of me I can't remember what was there before. Was it vacant land or an old industrial site.

Anyone?

There are quite a few sites around there even now that you could whip into in the wee small hours for some discreet fun if you were that way inclined.

Also check out Lemnos Pde. Access to bushland.

 

[Peter Kurten]

Can you remember how far the access road off Strlng Hwy went into the MLC grounds back in 96? It's still somewhat publicly accessible to this day.