West of Memphis

[missy_g]

I understand. Plus him saying his cuffs were so tight it drew blood.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Although I'm totally convinced of his innocence, Damien has always been his own worst enemy. His courtroom "antics" and "shock value" statements back in 1993/4 helped get him falsely convicted. It's not so much that he lies is that he tends to embellish - the whole thing about his health is a perfect example. I don't doubt that he was mistreated in prison. He was a convicted child killer, and that's the lowest of the low in prison. He was on Death Row, so it stands to reason that the State wouldn't spend much money on medical/dental care - just doing the cheapest thing possible. However, I hoped that he would have gained some maturity while incarcerated. Then, what does he do when he gets out? He moves to Salem, MA - Witch Central! IMO, that did absolutely nothing to enhance his credibility. I know a person should be able to live wherever he/she wishes, but FFS! That move on his part was totally unbelievable. Again, let me reiterate, I'm convinced of his innocence. I just think that he still makes bad choices at times. I guess some of it can be attributed to basically "growing up" in prison, but Jason doesn't act that way. I just wish that Damien would finish growing up and stop doing these immature things!

 

[missy_g]

Jason had access to education and I think that helped him a lot. Damien only had access to his own demons.
Embellished is the word I wanted to use. I could only think if drama queen.
I think theyre innocent as well, I just hate damiens bad attitude. It makes him look worse than he probably is.

 

[missy_g]

Also (IIRC) even death row inmates have the same access to healthcare. If they don't get it, they can say it violates their amendment rights.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

I think you're wrong about the healthcare, missy - at least as it pertains to dental care. The rules on DR are different. I remember reading it on a State website. The thing about his teeth was that they'd only pull them, not fill or crown them, because of DR. Damien chose to live with the pain so he wouldn't loose every tooth in his head. It's just that he certainly played up that angle of the situation to the hilt! The diet in prison plays havoc with teeth - especially for someone who had spotty dental care before incarceration. I don't doubt that he had tooth problems; I just think he played it up, as I said.

 

[Miranda!]

Yeah - the film was good. However it did rather take a leaf out of the book of the wmpd and Devil's Knot (to a less conclusive degree) in that all of them conducted investigations that were suspect driven rather than evidence led. This is never good as so many possible alternative avenues are immediately closed off, with potential information sometimes not even recorded, let alone followed up.

Most of all, though, given that the three wrongfully convicted are now released, they still manage to be centre stage of the tragic murders and the three real victims, all too often, get relegated. They are the REAL 'West Memphis Three'. I can fully appreciate why the campaign for the case to be re-examined, used the collective name for the three who were incarcerated - hell, the accumulative effects of the long period of all the supporter activity is what eventually won their 'freedom'.

For the vast majority, it sometimes seems, this was the end of the line; objectives had been achieved. For a few there was another important phase to be achieved: exoneration. BUT there is a slight glitch in this as, before exoneration, it has to be proven that some one else, or more, committed this vile crime and that, consequently the three convicted teens could not have done it.


Meanwhile, the last big splurge of publicity has left its mark. The Hollywood version of the crime. As a result we are seeing an influx of those, either new to the case or, who knew of it but had never taken a closer look. Some of these will soon lose interest and fade away, others will sitck around and join us. So for those of us still around, we are still chasing the dream of Justice, knowing that eventually it has to be attained for the sake of the three real vicitims, their families and all the other people severely impacted by their murders. AND for the sake of maintaining our collective faith in a judicial system that can work well when it is not tampered with.

It might be a long wait, but there will be a resolution eventually. To get three convicted men free, one from a cell on Death Row even, took 17/18 years. We can wait if we have to, but we shall not go away. Eventually, someone will break rank, even if it does not happen until one of the older officials, involved in the prosecution of this case, dies. The time will come. It has to. Justice has to prevail and it will!


Rant over!

 

[Miranda!]

CR is correct. The only dental care Death row inmates have accress to is the extraction of offending teeth!

Also, the state invest no money in edication for those on Death Row - so Echols did not have that option. He could have asked the many who wrote to him and had some sort of educational course put together with an eclectic and educational reading list. He was / is bright enough to teach himself but the drive has to be there.

JB only managed to get the educational opportunities he did due to the efforts of supporters and a degree of sympathy of some prison staff. As he was never going to be released there was no point, in the minds of the state, for him to need any form of education as it would have been a waste of money.

 

[Userid]

Although I'm totally convinced of his innocence, Damien has always been his own worst enemy. His courtroom "antics" and "shock value" statements back in 1993/4 helped get him falsely convicted. It's not so much that he lies is that he tends to embellish - the whole thing about his health is a perfect example. I don't doubt that he was mistreated in prison. He was a convicted child killer, and that's the lowest of the low in prison. He was on Death Row, so it stands to reason that the State wouldn't spend much money on medical/dental care - just doing the cheapest thing possible. However, I hoped that he would have gained some maturity while incarcerated. Then, what does he do when he gets out? He moves to Salem, MA - Witch Central! IMO, that did absolutely nothing to enhance his credibility. I know a person should be able to live wherever he/she wishes, but FFS! That move on his part was totally unbelievable. Again, let me reiterate, I'm convinced of his innocence. I just think that he still makes bad choices at times. I guess some of it can be attributed to basically "growing up" in prison, but Jason doesn't act that way. I just wish that Damien would finish growing up and stop doing these immature things!

Wonder if you'll get jumped on as badly as I did for this (I imply the same exact thing in the Damien Lies thread).

I completely agree, and as I said, he downplays many of his negative attributes -- understandably so, but nonetheless.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

Wonder if you'll get jumped on as badly as I did for this (I imply the same exact thing in the Damien Lies thread).

I completely agree, and as I said, he downplays many of his negative attributes -- understandably so, but nonetheless.

If I do "get jumped on" as you posited, I've got a thick skin. Comes from 25 years of teaching many a "Damien" "Jason" and "Jessie"

 

[Ausgirl]

No jumping-on of CR happening, here! I have always though Echols a bit of a tosser, have later come to see him a compulsive liar (though I understand this might be a survival mechanism from his unhappy childhood), and at present IMO he is a legend in his own lunchbox, happy to conflate said legend and busy lapping it up.

I just don't think it matters, tbh. His trial was a sham, he was on death row for many years when he ought not to have been based on that fact alone, and I couldn't care less how he chooses to live now he's out.

 

[JaneyBGood]

This is the thing, if you watch all three PL movies, and WOM, and read 99.9% of the media of this case, then yes you will absolutely think that, I am not surprised most people have a different opinion from mine at all considering all the time, effort, and money invested in the narrative the defence wanted the public to buy into.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine BUT where is the evidence linking WM3 ? Miskelkey was at a wrestling tournament that afternoon / evening DE and JB only knew him in passing yet entire prosecution is built around a mentally retarded JM? Come on, you are imNtelligENT, why do you hate the WM3 so? It's perverse logic mad reason I genuinely can't fathom the thought process..in Life AFTER death row DE admits acknowledges and confesses how ****ed up he was as a child and teenager BUT that does not Make A Murderer!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Misskelley was not at a wrestling tournament that afternoon, his alibi (along with Jason's) completely fell apart. I don't hate them, I just think they did it. Being a wreck of a teenager doesn't make one a murderer, murdering does, which I believe he did.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

JM was at wrestling practice that evening. The fact that there was no match doesn't mean that he didn't go to Dyess as he said, and as others have said. As to JB's alibi falling apart, what alibi? No alibi was presented by JB's defense, just a fiber expert. If you're referring to DE's alibi, again I disagree. DE might not have accurately remembered times, but his mother trying to refresh his memory is not an example of an outright lie on DE's part! DE may be weird and narcissistic, but I don't believe him to be a murderer. There is no evidence to support such a contention other than JM's convoluted (and false) statements and DE's weird behavior/dress.

 

[dogmatica]

JM was at wrestling practice that evening. The fact that there was no match doesn't mean that he didn't go to Dyess as he said, and as others have said. As to JB's alibi falling apart, what alibi? No alibi was presented by JB's defense, just a fiber expert. If you're referring to DE's alibi, again I disagree. DE might not have accurately remembered times, but his mother trying to refresh his memory is not an example of an outright lie on DE's part! DE may be weird and narcissistic, but I don't believe him to be a murderer. There is no evidence to support such a contention other than JM's convoluted (and false) statements and DE's weird behavior/dress.

If you have read Damien's psych report and believe that only makes him "weird and narcissistic", then you either didn't understand its contents or you are being obtuse.

Let me guess - you know hundreds of teenagers with that same psychological profile and they're really great kids who would never hurt a fly - they're just "misunderstood".

 

[Compassionate Reader]

If you have read Damien's psych report and believe that only makes him "weird and narcissistic", then you either didn't understand its contents or you are being obtuse.

Yes, I've read Exhibit 500. I've also worked with psychologists and social workers who admit that, on occasion, they embellish a client's condition in order to qualify them for SSDI checks. Yes, it's wrong, but it's done - a lot.

Let me guess - you know hundreds of teenagers with that same psychological profile and they're really great kids who would never hurt a fly - they're just "misunderstood".

Unless you have had extensive experience with "troubled" teens, I don't believe your assessment of my ability to understand them is germane. I will readily admit that DE has a psychological disorder of some kind. I suspect either a mild form of autism (causing him to be remote to all but those willing to get close to him) or possibly even paranoid delusions. However, I don't see him as a danger to anyone but himself. Exhibit 500, remember, was introduced by the defense in order to make him look as "crazy" as possible, attempting to mitigate the sentence. Since he was sentenced to death, it seems to me that it was an abysmal failure in that regard ("proving" him to be crazy).

 

[bravos4evr]

Anyone who has any knowledge about the psychology of crime and how it is reflected in crime scenes (and murder motive and methodology) understands that 3 teenage boys didn't do this. As John Douglas says in the film, it was obviously adult men who knew at least one of the victims and had enough power over the 3 young boys to get them to obey. It doesn't look like a drifter, or a trucker or a bunch of inexperienced teenagers, it looked like an angry crime of passion done by a relative.

All the nonsense I have read on here about their guilt based on a confession that was so obviously coerced makes me lose my faith in some people's ability to use their brain.

 

[Cher Lockhomes]

Anyone who has any knowledge about the psychology of crime and how it is reflected in crime scenes (and murder motive and methodology) understands that 3 teenage boys didn't do this. As John Douglas says in the film, it was obviously adult men who knew at least one of the victims and had enough power over the 3 young boys to get them to obey. It doesn't look like a drifter, or a trucker or a bunch of inexperienced teenagers, it looked like an angry crime of passion done by a relative.

All the nonsense I have read on here about their guilt based on a confession that was so obviously coerced makes me lose my faith in some people's ability to use their brain.

Thanks for this post bravos4evr. I've been reiterating this for the last three years with a lot of detailed explanations. I don't feel so alone now!!

 

[bravos4evr]

Thanx Cher!

John Douglas really cinched it for me. This guy has years of experience dealing with the most vicious of criminals, has seen hundreds if not thousands of crime scenes and understands the psychology of murder. PLUS, this is no professional defense witness, if you read any of his books you would discover a man who has been a constant supporter of victim's rights and would never testify on behalf of anyone he thought was guilty just for a paycheck. he analyses the data and presents his opinion based on the facts of the case and hat the crime scene and wound evidence tells him. This evidence ,along with the DNA evidence, the lousy coerced confession and the sheer lack of physical evidence tying them to the crime make this a pretty easy "they didn't do it" for anyone not emotionally attached to a position. Hell, when the friggin victim's parents change their minds I'd say that's a pretty ringing endorsement. (except for TH of course, but he fits the profile too well and is a partial match for the DNA)

 

[dogmatica]

Anyone who has any knowledge about the psychology of crime and how it is reflected in crime scenes (and murder motive and methodology) understands that 3 teenage boys didn't do this. As John Douglas says in the film, it was obviously adult men who knew at least one of the victims and had enough power over the 3 young boys to get them to obey. It doesn't look like a drifter, or a trucker or a bunch of inexperienced teenagers, it looked like an angry crime of passion done by a relative.

All the nonsense I have read on here about their guilt based on a confession that was so obviously coerced makes me lose my faith in some people's ability to use their brain.

"Confession"? I think you mean "confessions". Many, many confessions. Some post conviction. One after his own lawyer begged him NOT to confess, AGAIN. Hand on the bible. Clearly if you're citing one confession you are getting your "facts" from Hollywood and not the real evidence.

There is absolutely nothing proving or even indicating that "3 teenage boys didn't do this" That's 100% complete nonsense. In fact there's plenty of evidence pointing to the fact that three different people committed this crime. Including a whole bunch of confessions from one the the convicted (and guilty pleading) child killers. Dismiss all those confessions all you want - that doesn't make them go away.

Regrading your assertion that the confession was "coerced"...how does one get "coerced" into confessing over and over, POST CONVICTION, in the absence of the alleged people doing the "coercing"? And if he was so easily "coerced", how is it that his own lawyer couldn't convince him to STOP confessing? So he's only able to be manipulated into doing things that will destroy his life completely, but not into doing something (ie STOP confessing) that will SAVE his life?? That's hilarious.

And the fact that Douglas "cinched" it for you proves you are easily duped. Douglas claimed Echols (and Baldwin and Misskelley) had "no history of violence", when that is. in fact, 100% not true. Echols had a significant, documented history of violence - from several sources, including his own parents. Yet you put all your faith in some TV celebrity, commissioned by the defense, who either didn't look into Echols' history at all - OR, alternatively, completely lied about it?

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Userid]

Thanx Cher!

John Douglas really cinched it for me. This guy has years of experience dealing with the most vicious of criminals, has seen hundreds if not thousands of crime scenes and understands the psychology of murder. PLUS, this is no professional defense witness, if you read any of his books you would discover a man who has been a constant supporter of victim's rights and would never testify on behalf of anyone he thought was guilty just for a paycheck. he analyses the data and presents his opinion based on the facts of the case and hat the crime scene and wound evidence tells him. This evidence ,along with the DNA evidence, the lousy coerced confession and the sheer lack of physical evidence tying them to the crime make this a pretty easy "they didn't do it" for anyone not emotionally attached to a position. Hell, when the friggin victim's parents change their minds I'd say that's a pretty ringing endorsement. (except for TH of course, but he fits the profile too well and is a partial match for the DNA)

Have you done any other research on this case other than watching the movies? Just curious.

You're wrong. Both of MM's parents have always believed and still believe to this day that the WM3 are guilty. CB's mother died (under mysterious circumstances to boot, but I digress), and at the time of her death, she still believed they were guilty also. So really, there were only 2 parents that "changed their mind," and they're in the minority.

For a woman who believes TH may have killed her son, SB's mom has somewhat of a funny way of showing it, considering after saying that, she still saw TH regularly and even took photos with him at a barbecue, where they were laughing and kidding around with each other.