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I sure would like to know when Mark took on or started calling himself "a numbers guy" or "the numbers man". He was a male nurse- not a CPA, MBA or Commodities broker.

I think it is so interesting that this title that he (apparently) gave himself took hold the way it did and that a doctor wife had enough trust in his capabilities or did not seem to have a problem turning every single financial thing over to a guy that at one point she was having tested for led poisoning (affecting his brain and memory).

I just don't get it.

Was he making prudent or profitable financial decisions for the first 9-10 years and only in the last 2-3 years started seriously screwing things up financially?

Was he organized in his tasks, care of the home and his office for most of the marriage? Did he pay his/their bills on time for a long time but then suddenly change?

Something is missing- some part of this doesn't make sense.
 
Don't get me wrong- I know there are many circumstances when a guy or girl charms a partner, spouse or mate- for a time. Usually these types of people cannot hide themselves for very long- certainly not usually decades.

Mark Sievers was given (IMO) the most trusted and important powers and decision making capabilities in the family for over 12 years! She trusted him implicitly with the care and raising of their two daughters and by all accounts they were/are smart, kind, well behaved and well adjusted children.

Someone help me, please. Help me understand how a psychopath or destructive narcissist could hide in plain site for SO LONG with someone like Teresa?
 
human said:
She was awfully busy with working and going to school.

I think when you are competent and conscientious, you think all people are. And of course your spouse that is sucking up to you.

I really doubt he was faithful from the beginning. Did he marry her thinking he would have a great relationship or did he see ca$h?

I had a friend of forty years who I saw off and on as she moved around a lot. Last year she retired and came to visit us because we now live in a beautiful country and she retired.

Holy moly. Hubby and I discoverd that she is a user of people and a liar. We confrontd her on her lies and she did not even flinch. Hubby and I discussed for weeks if we were interpreting things correctly. It was a mind blower.

When I talked to friend who I thought were her friends, I found out they really weren't. She had played up their relationship.

This was really hard for us. TS seemed to have no one that she discussed her concerns with. At least we have not heard anyone say anything auch as her sister or friends such as Danielle.

If she wondered, she kept it to herself. She had children with this -------/ ( can't say what I think). How hard to look at things objectively and without a confidante to discuss your fears and observations.

Maybe we will hear from someone, but so far no one has said that she was seeing him for what he was.
Click to expand...

I agree - we assume people operate honestly and with the best intentions like we do. It doesn't occur to us until something definitive happens and even then, we may doubt what we saw or heard for ourselves.

In addition to TS being extremely busy, I think she also underestimated him. The buffoon personality was a perfect disguise. She may have assumed he was harmless.

I'm looking forward to hearing from people who knew them who saw through MS and maybe avoided them socially or professionally. He can't have fooled everyone.
 
Frigga said:
Don't get me wrong- I know there are many circumstances when a guy or girl charms a partner, spouse or mate- for a time. Usually these types of people cannot hide themselves for very long- certainly not usually decades.

Mark Sievers was given (IMO) the most trusted and important powers and decision making capabilities in the family for over 12 years! She trusted him implicitly with the care and raising of their two daughters and by all accounts they were/are smart, kind, well behaved and well adjusted children.

Someone help me, please. Help me understand how a psychopath or destructive narcissist could hide in plain site for SO LONG with someone like Teresa?
Click to expand...

I've seen this question asked in various capacities on this thread and I have to tell you, although I am sure most people don't mean it in this way, it comes across as insensitive. The very nature of the psychopathy of a murderer is one of manipulation and duplicity. To suggest, by way of needing an explanation for the time frame and state of a marriage or relationship, that Teresa stayed with someone like MS "too long" borders on blaming the victim. I am sure people don't mean it that way, but that is the way it comes across. No matter Teresa's state of mind in 2003 when she married or 2015 when she was brutally murdered - she doesn't deserve to have her thoughts dissected. No victim does unless there is a direct correlation to material evidence in their murder.
 
human said:
The sister died for things not related to MS unless there was abuse of her as a child which led to adult issues.
Click to expand...
I don't know that anyone on this forum, including me, can give the details or the reason for the death of the sister of MS. However, the fact remains that according to the verified friend of MS who has posted on this forum, MS stated that he found the death "suspicious." Since we now know MS to be a man accused of murder, I think anything he says is what is truly suspect and should be viewed in that way. Seems pretty hinky that an accused murderer called the death of his sister "suspicious," if that is in fact a true statement that he made to Skinner, the verified friend.
 
I was in no way stating she was with him too long and I am not blaming her as a victim. I am trying to understand how he was able to hide his sociopathy from so many, for so long. What I do wonder is if something changed- or snapped- and what that something was.

One of my five sisters was married to a destructive narcissist. They have four children together. I never liked him, my husband who likes everyone didn't like him and most everyone I knew felt the same way. My sister knew how I felt, but once the second and third child came along- I was pretty sure she was in it for the long haul- by the 4th I never ever thought she would leave. I love those kids so I will always be nice to him because he is their dad and they are half him.

Turns out, when she did finally leave him- she had no money and was a stay at home mom and homeschooled- she hadn't shared half of the things he would say and do to her because she knew what I would have done as her sister who loved her and her kids like they were my own.

I won't go into all the gory details but one of the things he would say to her, if she tried to stand up to him or resist his control, he would tell her to "get back in her box".! She had the kids all sleep with her because she was afraid of what he might do to her or them- she didn't tell me this until much later. I thought she was just a hippy-dippy co sleeping, possibly over protective mother.

He controlled the finances and always made sure she had a car that was barely operational, let alone safe. In the first four years of their marriage he was fired from 7 jobs! Seven! He could never work for or with women. He had to go back into the military because it was the only place he didn't stand out as such a masogynist. When he shook your hand he attempted to crush it- males and females.

Anyway, Teresa is nothing but a victim in my eyes- as are their girls. I am trying to understand the dynamics that brought us here.

Sorry, I'll go back to just reading for awhile.
 
I didn't know that Graves' disease could kill you! I have a very close neighborhood friend who has it.
 
Frigga said:
I was in no way stating she was with him too long and I am not blaming her as a victim. I am trying to understand how he was able to hide his sociopathy from so many, for so long. What I do wonder is if something changed- or snapped- and what that something was.

One of my five sisters was married to a destructive narcissist. They have four children together. I never liked him, my husband who likes everyone didn't like him and most everyone I knew felt the same way. My sister knew how I felt, but once the second and third child came along- I was pretty sure she was in it for the long haul- by the 4th I never ever thought she would leave. I love those kids so I will always be nice to him because he is their dad and they are half him.

Turns out, when she did finally leave him- she had no money and was a stay at home mom and homeschooled- she hadn't shared half of the things he would say and do to her because she knew what I would have done as her sister who loved her and her kids like they were my own.

I won't go into all the gory details but one of the things he would say to her, if she tried to stand up to him or resist his control, he would tell her to "get back in her box".! She had the kids all sleep with her because she was afraid of what he might do to her or them- she didn't tell me this until much later. I thought she was just a hippy-dippy co sleeping, possibly over protective mother.

He controlled the finances and always made sure she had a car that was barely operational, let alone safe. In the first four years of their marriage he was fired from 7 jobs! Seven! He could never work for or with women. He had to go back into the military because it was the only place he didn't stand out as such a masogynist. When he shook your hand he attempted to crush it- males and females.

Anyway, Teresa is nothing but a victim in my eyes- as are their girls. I am trying to understand the dynamics that brought us here.

Sorry, I'll go back to just reading for awhile.
Click to expand...

Frigga: I know you weren't talking to me, but please don't apologize, ever. Nobody here is blaming TS. Sometimes when we say things like "I wonder how they... or how could that go on for so long without them noticing..." it's our way of trying to make sense of something - NOT blaming anyone! I think it's kind of like a generic wondering and then some people who know about things like this will answer us and then we learn more.

I never saw anyone blaming TS in this :( Never.

Now. I want to tell you I feel so kindred with you about your sister, my sister. We (her family) always knew something wasn't quite right with her husband because of how she had changed from an adventurous, independent and willful young woman to being incredibly meek and self-doubting about everything. She couldn't see it. We bring up adventures she had been on before this jerk, she had forgotten what she was like 'before'. We are now learning horrible, emotional and mental abuse that she couldn't ever acknowledge because she had become so worn down into believing his behavior was normal. Decades of this. It's easy to wonder on the surface why women stay, but many people don't and can't understand that their basis of 'normal' has been subtly shifted over time. It's insidious. If they were a88holes from the git-go it would be clear as bell, they'd never date them let alone marry them.

I want to cry for your sister for having to live that life. I want to cry for you when you discovered the reasons behind the sleeping arrangement; it's killing me to think about, you guys must have felt crushed. It's learning something like this about the abuse of someone that makes it easy for me to understand wanting to physically hurt another person, but only because of what he's done to her. I believe in a just punishment. My idea of just may not be others' idea of just or fair.

So many people can just never understand what it's like when you're in it - I mention to them checking into Stockholm Syndrome.
It's incredibly easy and clear to see something from the outside.
 
Frigga said:
I didn't know that Graves' disease could kill you! I have a very close neighborhood friend who has it.
Click to expand...

I never knew that, either. Maybe that's why he thought it was suspicious? On another condolence website, the partner mentions learning more about her disease and understanding why she was in so much pain.

I just copied this from Google
"Without treatment, Graves' disease can lead to heart problems, weak and brittle bones, and even death. "Thyroid storm" is a very rare, life-threatening condition that can occur if overactive thyroid is not treated."
 
AmazonRain said:
I've seen this question asked in various capacities on this thread and I have to tell you, although I am sure most people don't mean it in this way, it comes across as insensitive. The very nature of the psychopathy of a murderer is one of manipulation and duplicity. To suggest, by way of needing an explanation for the time frame and state of a marriage or relationship, that Teresa stayed with someone like MS "too long" borders on blaming the victim. I am sure people don't mean it that way, but that is the way it comes across. No matter Teresa's state of mind in 2003 when she married or 2015 when she was brutally murdered - she doesn't deserve to have her thoughts dissected. No victim does unless there is a direct correlation to material evidence in their murder.
Click to expand...

I do not see it that way. I read it as people are wondering how he fooled everyone for so long. Even her family thought he was a prince.
 
AmazonRain said:
I don't know that anyone on this forum, including me, can give the details or the reason for the death of the sister of MS. However, the fact remains that according to the verified friend of MS who has posted on this forum, MS stated that he found the death "suspicious." Since we now know MS to be a man accused of murder, I think anything he says is what is truly suspect and should be viewed in that way. Seems pretty hinky that an accused murderer called the death of his sister "suspicious," if that is in fact a true statement that he made to Skinner, the verified friend.
Click to expand...

You can read all about it on the web. I think in her funeral place where people comment. There are some very very lenghty discussions about the sister.
 
Thank you so much for sharing your sisters story. That is heartbreaking how much he was able to beat her down and change her.

With my sis she was still quite young with two failed marriages and a little girl from the second one. My sister was always a very introverted, painfully shy and meek person. She was gentle and loving but also always seeking love and approval. If I had known even a little of what he was doing or saying, I would have intervened. Live and learn and probably exactly why she kept so much from me.

She managed to leave and change her life. She went back to school and at the same time that her oldest daughter from her previous marriage was graduating with her Masters degree- so was my sister! She has gone on to change her life and her stars but the damage still lingers. Maybe it will always, to some degree, but she is loved by her children, myself and my family, and many wonderful friends. I see how the progression from our childhood carried over into her choice of mates and how she fell suceptible to him in the first place. I am friends with his siblings and I now know and understand his family story much better- too. I never ever thought I could be in the same room with him let alone be nice to him but I love his kids and for that, I will be forever grateful for his contribution- the good, the bad and the ugly. It is what it is but I never want them to loath half of themselves.They are really great kids- loving, funny, smart, talented and suprisingly well adjusted. Some day they will figure out who he is- two of them have already but he is their dad and I hope they will always love him. The generational stuff stops with them and I am glad.

Interesting the different dynamics or ways people come together- some are tricked and some are trying to change history. As someone who studied psychology in college it is important to understand, as best we can, so we can help the next person if the opportunity presents itself.

I am so glad your sister got away- and with her life- mine too. I wish that had been the outcome for Teresa.
 
Frigga said:
I didn't know that Graves' disease could kill you! I have a very close neighborhood friend who has it.
Click to expand...
Just chiming in to say that I have it and since the thyroid controls so much in your body it can really cause issues with your heart. I was in atrial fibrillation when diagnosed but am fortunately in remission now. Maybe it did a job on her heart.
 
FelicityLemon said:
I never knew that, either. Maybe that's why he thought it was suspicious? On another condolence website, the partner mentions learning more about her disease and understanding why she was in so much pain.

I just copied this from Google
"Without treatment, Graves' disease can lead to heart problems, weak and brittle bones, and even death. "Thyroid storm" is a very rare, life-threatening condition that can occur if overactive thyroid is not treated."
Click to expand...
Yes. Sorry...I didn't see this before commenting. The "storms" are extremely dangerous without medical treatment.
 
Frigga said:
I was in no way stating she was with him too long and I am not blaming her as a victim. I am trying to understand how he was able to hide his sociopathy from so many, for so long. What I do wonder is if something changed- or snapped- and what that something was.

One of my five sisters was married to a destructive narcissist. They have four children together. I never liked him, my husband who likes everyone didn't like him and most everyone I knew felt the same way. My sister knew how I felt, but once the second and third child came along- I was pretty sure she was in it for the long haul- by the 4th I never ever thought she would leave. I love those kids so I will always be nice to him because he is their dad and they are half him.

Turns out, when she did finally leave him- she had no money and was a stay at home mom and homeschooled- she hadn't shared half of the things he would say and do to her because she knew what I would have done as her sister who loved her and her kids like they were my own.

I won't go into all the gory details but one of the things he would say to her, if she tried to stand up to him or resist his control, he would tell her to "get back in her box".! She had the kids all sleep with her because she was afraid of what he might do to her or them- she didn't tell me this until much later. I thought she was just a hippy-dippy co sleeping, possibly over protective mother.

He controlled the finances and always made sure she had a car that was barely operational, let alone safe. In the first four years of their marriage he was fired from 7 jobs! Seven! He could never work for or with women. He had to go back into the military because it was the only place he didn't stand out as such a masogynist. When he shook your hand he attempted to crush it- males and females.

Anyway, Teresa is nothing but a victim in my eyes- as are their girls. I am trying to understand the dynamics that brought us here.

Sorry, I'll go back to just reading for awhile.
Click to expand...

Frigga, I respect and agree with everything you said. I have aluded to the same thing for months now, I totally can not get how a smart and wise doctor could allow or be blind to MS tactics. Why her family and friends did not see what he was and intervene. I still believe that TS was just so dedicated to her career and possibly her relationships that she didn't see what went on behind the scenes and at home. I too have been chastised for such comments and like you apologized. My comments are meant in no way to take away or be insensitive of TS. I just don't get it and I feel that most on WS actually agree. AR is very defensive and we are here to sleuth and help draw attention so that this may save another victim going through similar circumstances. I understand AR defending her friend as I would do also, but at the same time I disagree with her comments to those of us who really want to understand. I hope AR will understand and take another look at the posts instead of lying on the defensive end.
 
Saw this on FB.....

Narcissists are bullies who don't like people standing up to them. They want control.
When you finally take over the reins, expect a backlash of criticism and slander as they try desperately to deflect the blame.
Don't loose heart.
What is done in the dark will come to light.

By Anne NcCrea (Narcissistic and Emotional Abuse)
 
Very well said and thank you.

I can only imagine what it feels like to be in her shoes, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Sigh.

I think often how this might have turned out if Teresa had confided in someone but I suppose that was the very nature that Mark counted on. He knew that wasn't how she operated- he had to have. Also, from having access to all written communications for their household and office- he had back up to support what he knew or believed.

Weather it be fear or pride a combination of both or just being a very private person I hope people understand that this is not what you do when there are red flags- you do not keep it to yourself.

If Teresa had confided in Aunt Mary or Annie Lisa, her mother or AR- they might have been able to support her and tell her she was correct in her thinking, suspicions- whatever and could have helped her formulate a safe exit plan. This is the most dangerous time for a spouse and all indications are Teresa had no idea what she was really dealing with. I do, I did, I know. Most of us here learned the hard way- trial by fire of a loved one.

It's done- no one can go back now to change things but I hope someone reads here and thinks to themselves- I could be in danger too- this sounds a lot like my husband, boyfriend co-worker... whatever. Seek help, don't keep secrets for them.

I think The Gift Of Fear should be required HS reading to graduate.

We teach young people all sorts of superfluous things and factoids they'll never use but we don't teach them practical ways to keep themselves safe, how to truly spot different types of predators, how to spot different warning signs and how to not only trust their intuitions but ACT upon them. Seriously, that's what I want my daughters, nieces and friends to know- among the other more academic things required for graduation.
 
Whether Teresa or any other victim, I don't find it adds to sleuthing to suggest that the victim could have done something that could have prevented their own murder. By virtue of being a victim they are now subject to have their thoughts dissected? Not in my world. In the posts above the victim has been portrayed as possibly too filled with fear, or too filled with pride, or too blind or too busy or too private. Teresa's family and friends have been questioned as to why they "did not see" what MS was and "intervene." No matter how this is couched, sounds like blaming the victim to me. I agree that people on websleuths are here to sleuth. Sleuthing a deceased person's thoughts? Not so much. Of course this is my opinion and I'd be saying the same thing in any other forum.
 
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