FL - Mass Shooting at Pulse Nightclub, Orlando 12 June 2016 #4

[angelainwi]

More:
http://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/teache...ifficult-time-understanding/story?id=39967199

Is she still missing?

 

[human]

Dutch prisons out of criminals.

http://www.techinsider.io/dutch-prisons-are-closing-2016-3

 

[human]

Dutch prisons are running out of criminals.

A study published in 2008 found the ankle monitoring system reduced the recidivism rate by up to half compared to traditional incarceration. Instead of wasting away in a jail cell, eating up federal dollars, convicted criminals are given the opportunity to contribute to society.

These measures all add up to an unbelievably low incarceration rate: Although the Netherlands has a population of 17 million, only 11,600 people are locked up. That's a rate of 69 incarcerations per 100,000 people.

The US, meanwhile, has a rate of 716 per 100,000 - the highest in the world. It's marked largely by its lack of attention to social services and rehabilitation programs once prisoners finish their sentences. Without a safety net to give them any other options, many fall back into their old habits.


QUOTE FROM THE TECH INSIDER ARTICLE

 

[Everyday Grace]

Is she still missing?

I think that depends upon the definition of "missing."

I would venture a guess that her attorney is aware of her location. I have seen no indication that information is being withheld from the Justice Department.

Missing from accessibility to the media, I would say yes.

 

[nomoresorrow]

How many Muslims were in the WTC? Boston Marathon? Pulse?

And on 9/11!

 

[Everyday Grace]

[Attorney General] Lynch said on NBC’s “Meet the Press” there is no indication as yet that Mateen was being directed from overseas.

“He was consuming radical jihadist information online,” Lynch said, adding investigators are trying to determine “what was the point that actually led him to pick up that gun.”

More:
http://www.ibtimes.com/orlando-shoo...ghtclub-killer-transcripts-lynch-says-2383990

 

[sonjay]

I didn't say hate crime vs. terrorism. I said it's both, but there are people who, imo, want to present it as only a terrorist attack because they are straight and don't want to feel excluded.

I believe there are people who, IMO, want to present it as only a hate crime, because they are gay and they don't want to lose their victim status nor share it with the rest of the country.

 

[sonjay]

We have plenty of patriarchal people in America. Think the Duggars and the Quiverful movement. Think of the churches that split because someone has a female cleric. It was not until too long ago that domestic violence was considered a crime. Before what a man did to his woman was his business.

There are people who kill their children for all kinds of reasons as we see on here. Not eating dinner. What else. I do not want to remember why or the cases. There is a new case on here on WS where a family in Pennsylvania gave their female children to a guy as payment for loans.

I have retired to a foreing country , and I heard a speech by the President of this country speaking about the concern of American violence influencing their youth. When I was in England a few years ago before all of the mass shootings, people there asked what in the heck was the matter with America. Same with a family from Australia that was on a tour with us.

People in other countries are quite amazed that Americans can live with such violence.

I find this America-bashing highly offensive.

 

[sonjay]

Dutch prisons are running out of criminals.

A study published in 2008 found the ankle monitoring system reduced the recidivism rate by up to half compared to traditional incarceration. Instead of wasting away in a jail cell, eating up federal dollars, convicted criminals are given the opportunity to contribute to society.

These measures all add up to an unbelievably low incarceration rate: Although the Netherlands has a population of 17 million, only 11,600 people are locked up. That's a rate of 69 incarcerations per 100,000 people.

The US, meanwhile, has a rate of 716 per 100,000 - the highest in the world. It's marked largely by its lack of attention to social services and rehabilitation programs once prisoners finish their sentences. Without a safety net to give them any other options, many fall back into their old habits.


QUOTE FROM THE TECH INSIDER ARTICLE

This thread is about an Islamic terror attack.

Why are you talking about Dutch crime rates?

 

[CARIIS]

A couple of thoughts based on upthread posts.

All terrorism is violence, but not all violence is terrorism. (Think of the Planned Parenthood radical pro-life ill terrorist, who is genuinely mentally ill, or the Batman movie shooter, who was also genuinely mentally ill.)

And not all terrorism is islamic terrorism. Islamic terrorism is islamic terrorism. And if someone says they are an islamic terrorist, and kills a whole bunch of innocent civilians while claiming allegiance to allah, ISIS, and radical islamic terrorist causes, and is celebrated by terrorists for doing so, then they ARE a radical islamic terrorist by definition.

Not all muslims are terrorists. But ALL radical islamic terrorists are muslims.

Most criminals are clinically antisocial. Most have diagnosable personality "disorders". These are conditions to be managed with social constraints, social training in a mental health setting, and laws. Personality disorders and antisocial behavior cannot be fixed with any amount or type of counseling, meds, or mental health care. All of their "care" when in the "care system" is focused on managing the risk these people present to the rest of the public, and closely monitoring them. We have never, in the history of medicine, "cured" anyone with a personality disorder, or antisocial behavior. Talk therapy is a form of babysitting and monitoring these people to protect the public from their behaviors. Prison and the justice system is another "therapy" to control and monitor their behavior. So saying these people are "mentally ill" does not even marginally explain or justify their behavior, and certainly does not present any missed opportunity for medical mental health intervention. The proper intervention is the criminal justice system, when these individuals with personality disorders and antisocial personalities plan and execute crimes. The proper intervention is not mental health care.

This guy, OM, is clearly, IMO, antisocial, from the earliest age. His family sought no care or monitoring for that, and the school system was unable to manage him or change his behaviors to any substantial degree. At the least, his family (father) was an enabler of OM's antisocial behavior. Added to that is the toxic cultural home environment he was conceived and reared in, and the western antisocial "cultural" influences of his father and mother. Living in a community is not assimilation, even if you have a suit on and a middle class house. This family, like many other immigrants from patriarchal middle eastern regions, is constitutionally unable to assimilate their thinking and values to western ideals, western social norms, and the freedoms of this part of the world. We aren't changing their thinking by "modeling western tolerance". They will never, ever assimilate their thinking toward women, gays, equality, freedom, etc. IMO, every one of these "unable to assimilate their thinking" families on this soil is a serious and ongoing risk to the general safety and security of everyone. That doesn't at all mean that they can't celebrate their heritage, enjoy traditional foods, traditional arts, etc. But the toxicity of the values and morals of African and middle eastern patriarchal islamic cultures is a poison in this country, IMO. We read story after news story about second generation kids of these immigrants who ARE successfully assimilating their thinking, and behaviors-- and then the immigrant father kills his daughters for taking off the hajib, or "acting too western". (Don't ask me to link-- there are literally dozens of these murders in the past few years-- which are treated as crimes, and not a facet of islamic cultural terrorism.)

In generations past, people immigrated here because they wanted to be Americans. They believed in the values, morals, and ideology of freedom in America. They admired America's place in the world, and wanted to be a part of that. Now, that isn't so anymore. Many (most, IMO) immigrants come here for other reasons more suited to money and things. They want to LIVE in America, and take advantage of our material goods, electricity, flushing toilets, job opportunities-- but they have no intention to ever assimilate or become "Americans" in their thinking. They have no loyalty or allegiance to America. They are still thinking and behaving as if they are in their culture of origin, and expecting everyone else to "accommodate" them. They don't particularly "like" America at all, IMO. They don't consider themselves to be Americans, or patriotic, or loyal. Not all immigrants from islamic cultures are this way, but more are like this-- unable to assimilate-- than are not, IMO.

"See something, say something" is a platitude to make us think the government is diligently working to solve the problem, and that they value our input. It's a way to give instructions to the public that are meaningless, but "keep us busy" and placated, like the "duck and cover" training in the 1950s. If there is an IMMEDIATE threat-- a person with a gun shooting people or something, certainly 911 will respond. But with the current political handcuffs on the FBI as to investigating and managing the specific and ongoing (escalating!) risk from islamic terrorism on our soil, nothing will ever be accomplished until we get a different set of political ideologies in the White House, IMO. Many more innocents will die in the mean time. And if someone does try to "say something", it's either ignored, minimized, denied, or the reporting person is demonized with labels. And maybe even prosecuted by the DOJ for "hate". Look how many agencies and people "said something" about OM, and because of enforced "political correctness", no agency was able to put together that he was an increasing risk to society, and take actions to manage that and prevent him from killing people.

As usual, wonderfu; post sir/madam!!

 

[CARIIS]

We have plenty of patriarchal people in America. Think the Duggars and the Quiverful movement. Think of the churches that split because someone has a female cleric. It was not until too long ago that domestic violence was considered a crime. Before what a man did to his woman was his business.

There are people who kill their children for all kinds of reasons as we see on here. Not eating dinner. What else. I do not want to remember why or the cases. There is a new case on here on WS where a family in Pennsylvania gave their female children to a guy as payment for loans.

I have retired to a foreing country , and I heard a speech by the President of this country speaking about the concern of American violence influencing their youth. When I was in England a few years ago before all of the mass shootings, people there asked what in the heck was the matter with America. Same with a family from Australia that was on a tour with us.

People in other countries are quite amazed that Americans can live with such violence.

there was on post dont rem where that said

"looks like the Americans are killing each other , again"!

 

[human]

This thread is about an Islamic terror attack.

Why are you talking about Dutch crime rates?

Because another poster talked about prisons and what should occur in them. There were statements that were absolute but just maybe they are not as absolute. Perhaps that post should be attacked as well?

 

[human]

I find this America-bashing highly offensive.

Um, it is what is happening in the rest of the world.

And the patriarchal things in America and the crimes are available to be seen by everyone.

 

[sonjay]

Because another poster talked about prisons and what should occur in them. There were statements that were absolute but just maybe they are not as absolute. Perhaps that post should be attacked as well?

Your post about Dutch crime rates didn't reference any other post.

I don't recall any other post talking about Dutch crime rates.

I suggest that if you want to discuss Dutch crime rates, you might want to start a thread about it. This thread is about an Islamic terrorist attack. I fail to see any relevance to Dutch crime rates.

 

[sonjay]

Um, it is what is happening in the rest of the world.

So it's okay to do here?

 

[sonjay]

Um, it is what is happening in the rest of the world.

And the patriarchal things in America and the crimes are available to be seen by everyone.

Why don't we talk about the patriarchal attitudes of Muslims? That would be more relevant to this discussion. And the horrific crimes being committed by radical Muslims in the name of Islam. That would be more relevant to this discussion.

 

[cady]

I believe there are people who, IMO, want to present it as only a hate crime, because they are gay and they don't want to lose their victim status nor share it with the rest of the country.

Are there any "groups" that you are not suspicious of? JMO

 

[CARIIS]

Gun expert wanted

Mateenandlaw enforcement fired a total of 202 rounds.

Rough estimate I counted 19 shots at the breach.

Does this make sense to anyone??

Wiki

 

[Everyday Grace]

The latest contribution from the NY Times on a comprehensive look at Mateen: ‘Always Agitated. Always Mad’: Omar Mateen, According to Those Who Knew Him

But his professed embrace of the Islamic State and its call for disaffected Muslims to attack the West seem to have come suddenly, as if something snapped. And while some reports have suggested that he was gay, federal officials say they have found no evidence in his effects or online presence to back them up.

The family assimilated. But as the United States became mired in the protracted war in Afghanistan, the elder Mr. Mateen became torn between his native and adopted homes. Over the years, he would become more politically active to a point of apparent delusion, posting videos, for example, of himself in military uniform, pretending to be Afghanistan’s president.

For his children, family friends say, this meant navigating a fractured world in which their Afghan roots and Muslim faith could lead to divisiveness and ostracism. Two friends say that the Mateen children feared any perceived link to Islamic extremism, and so began saying, simply, that they were Persian.

Mr. Mateen used a dating website to seek a relationship with a woman in Fort Pierce. He churned through usernames — “makeitlovelylol” among them — and lied about his age, according to the woman, who requested anonymity but who provided photos that she had saved from his dating profile.

Jasmine Kalenuik, a frequent visitor to PGA Village, came to dread encountering the guard at the gate — who, she said, “acted like a straight-up predator.”

“When I would go to grab my ID from his hand, he would cling to it and try to pull it back,” Ms. Kalenuik, 31, recalled. “He would hover over my car window and lean way in while breathing heavy on me with his teeth so clenched that you could see his jaw muscles sticking out.”

Ms. Kalenuik’s husband, Jerry, recently confronted the security guard, nearly nose to nose. But Mr. Mateen betrayed no emotion during the angry encounter.

“It was like I was staring into the eyes of Ted Bundy,” Mr. Kalenuik, 27, said. “I was irate but he seemed completely detached.”

Much more at the link:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/1...shooting.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

 

[alas]

It does matter in terms of what brought him to murder. We need to know what to look for in the future. In terms of mental illness, much like the Chattanooga terrorist, did that make him an easy target for ISIS? Did they have contact with him, more than internet connections? Extremely important, imo!

This was in response to sonjay..