CA - Mass casualty incident, 5+ stabbed at Neo-Nazi rally, Sacramento, 26 June 2016

[flourish]

I am saying that the on the ground reports I was looking at were extremely vague as regards what groups (or individuals) were a part of the counter-protest; as well as how the situation had escalated to what was shown on film--which, as I saw it involved people using flags as weapons. Unclear exactly what kind of flags--although at least one seemed to have a red background. One specific query of the on-site reporter was whether the "people in black with black face-coverings" were instigators. Her response was that it was very, very difficult to tell 1) which "side" was instigating; and 2) who belonged to which "side." Further, in my view, opposition to the beliefs of nazis and white supremacists do not constitute radical, or extremist opinions.

Well, if they were being used for self defense, then they were very likely being used as weapons. An earlier article quoted upthread mentions someone being stabbed with a flag pole. That sounds more weapon than shield.

rbbm

I think the flags were used in self defense.

JMO

 

[sonjay]

I do not think you understood my point.

It is all about what people would do about Nazi's. Do we stand silently by?

In Germany back in the day, many people did nothing. The Nazi's had their free speech.

Back in the day, many watched lynchings here in the US. They stood silently by.

Back in the day, blacks were beaten, had dogs sicced on them, were attacked with streams of fire hose water.

Oh well.

What would you suggest is the appropriate response to a rally by a group with whom you disagree?

Violence? Or non-violence?

 

[sonjay]

Well, if they were being used for self defense, then they were very likely being used as weapons. An earlier article quoted upthread mentions someone being stabbed with a flag pole. That sounds more weapon than shield.

Well, if you're being chased down by violent anarcho-fascists who are throwing bricks and rocks at you, and all you have to defend yourself with is a flag on a pole, you might well need to use the pole as a self-defense weapon. When people are attacking you, you may have to use whatever you have at hand.

 

[sonjay]

That seems to be the American way. Selma, Iraq, Chile, all of the Indian wars because of Manifest Destiny. On and on and on and on.

The America bashing is tired and stale. It does, however, reveal much.

 

[flourish]

Well, if you're being chased down by violent anarcho-fascists who are throwing bricks and rocks at you, and all you have to defend yourself with is a flag on a pole, you might well need to use the pole as a self-defense weapon. When people are attacking you, you may have to use whatever you have at hand.

Yeah the point was a post corrected someone for referring to the flags as being used as weapons by specifying they were being used in self defense... which indicates they were being used as weapons so.... Correction = moot


Eta: 2 different posters

 

[sonjay]

'blac bloc' seems to me to be more of a tactic than a 'group' of any kind.

I read about it here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

If you don't care for Wikipedia links, at least they can offer a jumping off place for further research.

As far as this Sacramento incident goes, I have watched and read enough to know that I am not inclined to support either side.

But, the history of the 'black bloc' aspect is kind of interesting to me.

It sounds like the "black bloc" mobs have been engaging in violence all over the world. Not a uniquely American phenomenon by any means. I guess some might consider their tactics mainstream, but based on what I've read about them, I'd consider them more radical than mainstream.

 

[formerjerseygirl]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...nt-stabbings-capitol-20160627-snap-story.html
-who started fights per police

 

[sonjay]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...nt-stabbings-capitol-20160627-snap-story.html
-who started fights per police

That further confirms the various quotes I posted above in posts 9, 11 & 12 -- from multiple difference sources, all saying that it was the "counter protesters" who started the violence.

Using violence and engaging in mob attacks against people we disagree with is not America. It's not who we are. This kind of thing absolutely cannot be tolerated.

 

[bluesneakers]

The America bashing is tired and stale. It does, however, reveal much.

Paying attention in history class, and to current events?

 

[sonjay]

Paying attention in history class, and to current events?

Nope. That's not at all what it reveals.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I do not think you understood my point.

It is all about what people would do about Nazi's. Do we stand silently by?

In Germany back in the day, many people did nothing. The Nazi's had their free speech.

Back in the day, many watched lynchings here in the US. They stood silently by.

Back in the day, blacks were beaten, had dogs sicced on them, were attacked with streams of fire hose water.

Oh well.

I think I understand your point in reference to the Neo Nazi rally - that it's ok to violently attack those whose speech you hate.

 

[bluesneakers]

That is because politics is not linear (far left, left, middle, right, far right). Rather it is circular, where far right and far left can and do blur into each other- well, when they are not clubbing each other.

Where fascism meets anarchy. And where violence is inevitable.

 

[sonjay]

I think I understand your point in reference to the Neo Nazi rally - that it's ok to violently attack those whose speech you hate.

That is the logical interpretation of the post in question.

The message of these anarcho-fascists seems to be: "You're hateful and violent. We're tolerant and loving. Therefore, we're justified in using hate and violence to beat the living crap out of you until you agree with us."

It alarms me that people who think like this have supporters who think this is mainstream.

 

[sonjay]

Where fascism meets anarchy. And where violence is inevitable.

Violence was not inevitable until the violent hate group Antifa showed up.

Seriously... does anyone really think the lame little group of 30 white supremists would have done anything but march around with their signs and yell some slogans, if they had been allowed to hold their lame little rally? Would they have looted? Destroyed property? Punched little old ladies? No. They would have marched around for a bit with signs and then gone home.

The loving, tolerant, inclusive anarcho-fascists are the ones who brought violence to Sacramento.

 

[bluesneakers]

Violence was not inevitable until the violent hate group Antifa showed up.

Seriously... does anyone really think the lame little group of 30 white supremists would have done anything but march around with their signs and yell some slogans, if they had been allowed to hold their lame little rally? Would they have looted? Destroyed property? Punched little old ladies? No. They would have marched around for a bit with signs and then gone home.

The loving, tolerant, inclusive anarcho-fascists are the ones who brought violence to Sacramento.

I am not picking sides in this fight. You must be kidding.

I know the anti-fascists went looking for a fight, but I have zero sympathy for hate groups.

I agree with Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at Cal State San Bernardino, who said:

“Make no mistake – I think the hatemongers wanted to have this violence take place,” Levin said. “And some of the anti-fascists very much wanted to have a violent confrontation.”

 

[human]

The America bashing is tired and stale. It does, however, reveal much.

Um, so you are saying none of these things happened or because America did it it is OK?

 

[sonjay]

I am not picking sides in this fight. You must be kidding.

I know the anti-fascists went looking for a fight, but I have zero sympathy for hate groups.

I agree with Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at Cal State San Bernardino, who said:

“Make no mistake – I think the hatemongers wanted to have this violence take place,” Levin said. “And some of the anti-fascists very much wanted to have a violent confrontation.”

I too have zero sympathy for hate groups.

My sympathy for hate groups who spew noxious vile words is pegged at zero.

But my sympathy for hate groups (or love groups, for that matter) who use violence to shut down those who they disagree with is about 100 below zero.

I don't understand why some people have so much trouble outright condemning the use of violence to achieve one's political goals. There always has to be a "but." Or an insinuation that it was somehow justified.

I also don't understand the constant America bashing by some posters here. As if no other country has violence. As if no other country's government has ever used unjustified violence against its citizens. As if the rest of the world is perfect, and America is the only country that fails to measure up.

 

[human]

That is the logical interpretation of the post in question.

The message of these anarcho-fascists seems to be: "You're hateful and violent. We're tolerant and loving. Therefore, we're justified in using hate and violence to beat the living crap out of you until you agree with us."

It alarms me that people who think like this have supporters who think this is mainstream.

Where does the tolerant and loving idea come from? People are tolerant of 6 million Jewish men, women, and children being tortured and killed? Neo Nazis are all for that. And anyone who opposes that is theorectically loving and tolerant?

I doubt if the court that convicted the latest Nazi was loving and tolerant

Where does the idea come from that people that are abused should simply take it?

When black people in the 60's were no longer going to take it and got weapons, then those weapons were made illegal.

 

[sonjay]

Um, so you are saying none of these things happened or because America did it it is OK?

I'm saying that the America bashing is tired and stale. It's permitted in America because of our strong protections of free speech, but in many other countries it would get you thrown in jail.

Are you saying that because those things have happened in America, that the antifa group is justified in using violence to achieve its political goals? Are you saying that, or merely trying to imply that?

 

[Elley Mae]

The America bashing is tired and stale. It does, however, reveal much.

Yes it does.