Identified! WI - Delafield, WhtMale, UP7632, car stolen, lighter, Sep'77 - John Lindberg Scott

[Roselvr]

OT, but Buckskin Girl (18-26) and the Pemiscot Does (the male being 25-early thirties, the female being 18-25) are both in NCMEC with reconstructions done. So I don't know why Delafield John wouldn't be put in.

Easiest way to get an answer would be to speak to NCMEC.

 

[masnitram]

Some newspaper articles from the time: http://imgur.com/a/xcU5v

Excellent findings, thank you for sharing. Where did you find these? I'm considering signing up for newpaper archives, but I've read mixed reviews.....

 

[Redwing]

He was exhumed and until he is identified the ME has an order allowing the county to store his remains. Curious to know your thoughts on Indianapolis?

Was the upper denture buried with him or discarded with other belongings? A forensic dentist could discern if materials and quality of plate was domestic or foreign.
Also there is something about his features that could be part Native American.

 

[masnitram]

Was the upper denture buried with him or discarded with other belongings? A forensic dentist could discern if materials and quality of plate was domestic or foreign.
Also there is something about his features that could be part Native American.

The upper denture plate, from my understanding, is nowhere to be found. It didn't turn up when they exhumed him either....

 

[Redwing]

The upper denture plate, from my understanding, is nowhere to be found. It didn't turn up when they exhumed him either....

Unfortunate. Also back in 70's it was not uncommon to see photos of UID in professional dental journals if the person had dental work. If there was work done there had to be a dentist who would recognize the person and/or their work. Wonder if they ever ran this option. Also plate would have been made at a dental lab. Some technicians have recognizable work and the teeth attached would come from a manufacturers possibly numbered.

 

[Redwing]

Has anyone passed this file to the American Board of Forensic Odontology ? Perhaps now a study of the remaining teeth could be done and determine age, habits , ethnicity and socio economic conditions. Also perhaps other fillings etc?

 

[masnitram]

Has anyone passed this file to the American Board of Forensic Odontology ? Perhaps now a study of the remaining teeth could be done and determine age, habits , ethnicity and socio economic conditions. Also perhaps other fillings etc?

I don't believe he had any fillings, but I will check again. I know the ME, when he was exhumed, told me that his dentals etc would be reviewed by someone in the field. How in-depth (socio economic, habits, etc..), I don't know. There does seem to be an agreement that he was/is in the middle of the 20-30 age range (26 being the most mentioned estimated age). This is based on a prior conversation I had back in 2011 with the old medical examiner who was on the case, the detective, and a fairly recent exchange with the current ME.

 

[Redwing]

Just came here to say this case is fascinating - also, upon my reviewing the photos on NAMUS, his handwriting looks reminiscent of someone who may have been born and raised in eastern Europe. In my humble opinion, American handwriting is often softer and more rounded. Also, it is apparent he can't spell (I'm not sure he meant "no hiring dine here" - rather "now hiring diner")... I'll go back through this thread for other opinions on the matter.

I agree handwriting looks like that of Eastern Europeans writing English

 

[Redwing]

I don't believe he had any fillings, but I will check again. I know the ME, when he was exhumed, told me that his dentals etc would be reviewed by someone in the field. How in-depth (socio economic, habits, etc..), I don't know. There does seem to be an agreement that he was/is in the middle of the 20-30 age range (26 being the most mentioned estimated age). This is based on a prior conversation I had back in 2011 with the old medical examiner who was on the case, the detective, and a fairly recent exchange with the current ME.

very interesting. Is the dental chart posted online ?

 

[masnitram]

very interesting. Is the dental chart posted online ?

Unfortunately, I never downloaded or copied it when it was available on Namus. The only info I have is that teeth 2,3,14,15 (Upper right and left molars) and 7,8,9,10 (upper front four) are missing w/ healed sockets. I have noted that teeth 1,4,5,6,11,12,13 and 16 are intact

 

[Redwing]

Unfortunately, I never downloaded or copied it when it was available on Namus. The only info I have is that teeth 2,3,14,15 (Upper right and left molars) and 7,8,9,10 (upper front four) are missing w/ healed sockets. I have noted that teeth 1,4,5,6,11,12,13 and 16 are intact

Thanks for that!
Back molars out would give me the impression he was raised in a lower income family. In 70's dentists were quicker to extract and not preserve.
Also likely not from a region that had fluoride in the water at that time, either naturally occurring (like Texas or Alberta Canada back then ) or added to drinking water.
Front teeth loss very common in young men from accidents. Especially hockey to remove all 4 like that. Curious what remaining teeth might tell us. Wish there was more to go on. Maybe someone would know more what these details might mean say coming from Eastern Europe or Scandinavia?

 

[Roselvr]

I don't believe he had any fillings, but I will check again. I know the ME, when he was exhumed, told me that his dentals etc would be reviewed by someone in the field. How in-depth (socio economic, habits, etc..), I don't know. There does seem to be an agreement that he was/is in the middle of the 20-30 age range (26 being the most mentioned estimated age). This is based on a prior conversation I had back in 2011 with the old medical examiner who was on the case, the detective, and a fairly recent exchange with the current ME.

I think the ME had PM'd Never Forget Me a while ago.

 

[DogRescuer]

Front teeth loss very common in young men from accidents. Especially hockey to remove all 4 like that. Curious what remaining teeth might tell us. Wish there was more to go on. Maybe someone would know more what these details might mean say coming from Eastern Europe or Scandinavia?

I grew up in Eastern Europe (born in 1976,) not quite sure how I can help. Back before the fall of communism, many had neglected dental care but - having lived in the United States - I kind of feel that is not unlike low-income people anywhere else in the world (and, in communism, pretty much everyone was low-income.) If you have any specific questions, I'll do my best to give a coherent response.

MOO, but I do not recognize the handwriting on the notes found with JD as Eastern European. May I add, I was big on snail mailing all over the world for about a decade starting in the mid-80s, and I really enjoyed looking at all the different kinds of handwriting, to a point where I had a little game of trying to guess where a new penpal was from, based solely on their handwriting. (Yeah, I found fascination in some weird stuff when I was a youngin'.)

Together with the spelling issues, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the notes was someone with very little formal education. One has to write quite a lot to have the sort of "flowing" handwriting someone on this thread has mentioned.
Or - and that should fit the foreigner theory more - it could belong to someone who first learned to use something other than our Latin alphabet. (Not Russian, though. Their handwriting when not using Cyrillic letters is quite specific and easy to spot.) If anything, it reminds me of the handwriting of some of my penpals from the Middle East.
Just my thoughts.

ETA: Just to be clear, I am not suggesting he was from the Middle East at all. Thanks to all the information provided on this thread after some magnificent sleuthing by others, and taking into consideration the handwriting, the complete amateur in me tends to side with LE who think JD was probably relatively local, simply adding that in my opinion, he was most likely a person with very little formal education.

 

[masnitram]

I kind of feel that is not unlike low-income people anywhere else in the world

MOO, but I do not recognize the handwriting on the notes found with JD as Eastern European.

Together with the spelling issues, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the notes was someone with very little formal education.
Or - and that should fit the foreigner theory more - it could belong to someone who first learned to use something other than our Latin alphabet. (Not Russian, though. Their handwriting when not using Cyrillic letters is quite specific and easy to spot.) If anything, it reminds me of the handwriting of some of my penpals from the Middle East.


the complete amateur in me tends to side with LE who think JD was probably relatively local, simply adding that in my opinion, he was most likely a person with very little formal education.

Thank you for the insight, I agree with you on many points.

I too think that his teeth says more about his socioeconomic background than where he was born and raised, no matter if he came from Chicago or Russia.

I don't read anything into his handwriting. I have an MBA and graduated "magna *advertiser censored* laude", however if you look at my handwriting you could surmise that I am basically illiterate...it is THAT bad. While he did add an extra "n" to Lincoln and misspelled Belmont (wrote Belmot), we don't know the context of where he was or what he was doing when he wrote those things down. I make a lot of mistakes when I'm focused on what I'm hearing over the phone or in a hurry...

I don't know about how local he was when you look at the cards from Kemmerly Real Estate and Johnny's. Sales, real estate, etc are very different animals than the blue collar work he would have been looking for (assumed) at Orville Kent and Riddell (both manufacturing facilities).

 

[Redwing]

I grew up in Eastern Europe (born in 1976,) not quite sure how I can help. Back before the fall of communism, many had neglected dental care but - having lived in the United States - I kind of feel that is not unlike low-income people anywhere else in the world (and, in communism, pretty much everyone was low-income.) If you have any specific questions, I'll do my best to give a coherent response.

MOO, but I do not recognize the handwriting on the notes found with JD as Eastern European. May I add, I was big on snail mailing all over the world for about a decade starting in the mid-80s, and I really enjoyed looking at all the different kinds of handwriting, to a point where I had a little game of trying to guess where a new penpal was from, based solely on their handwriting. (Yeah, I found fascination in some weird stuff when I was a youngin'.)

Together with the spelling issues, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw the notes was someone with very little formal education. One has to write quite a lot to have the sort of "flowing" handwriting someone on this thread has mentioned.
Or - and that should fit the foreigner theory more - it could belong to someone who first learned to use something other than our Latin alphabet. (Not Russian, though. Their handwriting when not using Cyrillic letters is quite specific and easy to spot.) If anything, it reminds me of the handwriting of some of my penpals from the Middle East.
Just my thoughts.

ETA: Just to be clear, I am not suggesting he was from the Middle East at all. Thanks to all the information provided on this thread after some magnificent sleuthing by others, and taking into consideration the handwriting, the complete amateur in me tends to side with LE who think JD was probably relatively local, simply adding that in my opinion, he was most likely a person with very little formal education.[/QUOTE

Very interesting insights. Also made me think that in 77 would not have been many young recent immigrants from what was then Soviet Union.

 

[DogRescuer]

Thank you for the insight, I agree with you on many points.

I too think that his teeth says more about his socioeconomic background than where he was born and raised, no matter if he came from Chicago or Russia.

I don't read anything into his handwriting. I have an MBA and graduated "magna *advertiser censored* laude", however if you look at my handwriting you could surmise that I am basically illiterate...it is THAT bad. While he did add an extra "n" to Lincoln and misspelled Belmont (wrote Belmot), we don't know the context of where he was or what he was doing when he wrote those things down. I make a lot of mistakes when I'm focused on what I'm hearing over the phone or in a hurry...

I don't know about how local he was when you look at the cards from Kemmerly Real Estate and Johnny's. Sales, real estate, etc are very different animals than the blue collar work he would have been looking for (assumed) at Orville Kent and Riddell (both manufacturing facilities).

Oh, I am certainly generalizing when I talk about handwriting, and merely sharing my thoughts. It does seem to be the truth that many a doctor has awful handwriting, and doctors are certainly well-educated people.
Even if I am right in my very amateur assumption that JD had very little formal education, that probably doesn't even help us get any closer to finding his identity.

Was Kemmerly strictly a real estate brokerage, or did they own buildings? I am thinking maybe he was hoping to secure some sort of maintenance job?

The picture I have in my head about JD - and, again, thanks so much for the amazing sleuthing work going on for several years now - is that he probably came from a poor family, was maybe even bounced around within family or foster homes, and might have learned to provide for himself by committing some petty crime. He might have worked odd jobs here and there, and he was definitely actively looking for employment opportunities shortly before his demise. I don't have any potentially game-changing theories about what he was trying to get away from (or get to) so desperately that night, other than something could have happened that made him think he might be getting caught for some previous shenanigan.
And, I could be completely off.

 

[Roselvr]

Very interesting insights. Also made me think that in 77 would not have been many young recent immigrants from what was then Soviet Union.

My parents defected Hungary in the late 50's, sometime in the 70's early 80's she was going to bring her nephew and his GF out.

 

[sooverit]

Was Kemmerly strictly a real estate brokerage, or did they own buildings? I am thinking maybe he was hoping to secure some sort of maintenance job?

I was thinking along these lines too, but I wondered if they might also be real estate developers and he was looking for a construction job?

 

[masnitram]

Oh, I am certainly generalizing when I talk about handwriting, and merely sharing my thoughts.It does seem to be the truth that many a doctor has awful handwriting, and doctors are certainly well-educated people.


Even if I am right in my very amateur assumption that JD had very little formal education, that probably doesn't even help us get any closer to finding his identity.

Was Kemmerly strictly a real estate brokerage, or did they own buildings? I am thinking maybe he was hoping to secure some sort of maintenance job?

The picture I have in my head about JD - and, again, thanks so much for the amazing sleuthing work going on for several years now - is that he probably came from a poor family, was maybe even bounced around within family or foster homes, and might have learned to provide for himself by committing some petty crime. He might have worked odd jobs here and there, and he was definitely actively looking for employment opportunities shortly before his demise. I don't have any potentially game-changing theories about what he was trying to get away from (or get to) so desperately that night, other than something could have happened that made him think he might be getting caught for some previous shenanigan.
And, I could be completely off.

I totally understand. I was simply adding that the "look" of his writing is something that, in my opinion, is fairly meaningless. Others may not agree and I take no issue with that. We all want the same thing here, his identity back.

Kemmerly did have a dozen or so offices just dedicated to real estate so ,even without owning other properties, the need for a maintenance person to service their locations isn't far fetched at all. Johnny's had four locations as well, with rather large lots/buildings, so a maintenance position there isn't far fetched either. I have a hard time separating two entities dedicated to housing and two employment inquiries completely...but that could just be me ;-)

 

[Redwing]

I was thinking too about suggestions that if the JD was part of a gang of robbers and that his cohorts would not come forward as to not draw attention. I can see that but think that no one operates in a bubble-- even if you were connected to some car theft group you would also visit a pharmacy , corner store, go to a laundromat, pass the mailman Etc. People with casual contact would not be wary of calling in if they saw the news story back in the day. Were there any tips at all at that time?