CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough, Ont, 19 June 1990 #2

[dotr]

Just popping on to post that Russell William's parents were avid tennis players, and that he played tennis too, fwiw.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ing-of-a-mystery-man/article4390081/?page=all

Russell Williams

Mr. Williams and his wife, Christine, also British and an avid tennis player,

Jerry and Nonie Sovka had entrenched themselves in Toronto's sailing scene, as members of the upscale Boulevard Club, and Russ and Harvey were constantly on the move. Their mother, elegantly dressed with her hair in a bun, "made sure they did the right activities," a former neighbour says. "I remember them taking tennis lessons. ... She had them doing stuff all the time.

 

[eyesonly]

With all due respect Chorley8, you have some misconceptions here imo that have never been said, so will try to help out in order to keep EB's case alive and well and more importantly, on track. First and foremost, shutting ideas down will not happen.

Has there been another case of a stranger or family member buried in a front yard or any other area of a property? Seriously? I don't read all that many cases here, or anywhere else, but yes I have seen many - North America and the UK in particular. Prostitutes called for an evening, tenants renting a room or basement and family members have all ended up buried in front/back/side yards for various reasons. Google the idea.

Imo, your 2 makes no sense what so ever. A dangerous decision to escalate a 'simple disappearance or suicide' into a homicide and involving a family car? That imo, needs a far better explanation as to what you are saying - as nothing posted here even remotely resembles that. 'All they would have to do is' .... What I do see is, the mixing up of various ideas into one idea. Doesn't work, therefore requires no response.

The fact that EB may have talked about or even attempted suicide at any time means what as far as she has been missing 26 years? I agree - why go there?

Investigators did not tell LE anything regarding the impossibility of a body being in EB's car? LE are the investigators - forensic scientists tell LE their opinions on LE theories. You need to get that sorted out in your statement imo - RB is in the process of amending his lawsuit based on LE withholding CFS confirmation from the beginning that LE's idea of a body in EB's car was not plausible. Planted evidence is a theory posed here - do you know what the theory states as far as planted evidence? Surely you are not saying someone said LE planted it? Right?

Who is 'they'? Very unclear.

'Woodland I assume LE would not have bothered to match Bernardo's DNA with every SR victim'? Htf would I know?

If you have a plausible explanation for a small amount of blood in the back of EB's vehicle - pooled or otherwise - and drag marks going into the back of her vehicle but not outwards - please advise. One theory has been given - you want someone to give you another one?

If one wants to discount any theories - no problem - that is not in the quoted post though. Please don't start with with introducing info never stated - introduce your own info and or theory.

”""""""""RB is in the process of amending his lawsuit based on LE withholding CFS confirmation from the beginning that LE's idea of a body in EB's car was not plausible. Planted evidence is a theory posed here - """"""""""

This statement is incorrect woodland. Forensics say that LE's theory of Eb being killed on tuesday, hidden in the valley, then put in her car on Thurs night and driven to pt Perry was impossible due to the lack of decomp odour and bugs and fluids that go along with decomp.
They have never stated or hinted at anytime there was any kind of planting theory.
Their forensic evidence shows the theory that Eb was killed Tues nite and was in and out of the vehicle within about 3hrs. Any longer and decomp would begin to become noticeable in the forensic evidence.

This was the problem for LE because they had RB guilty from the get go, but he was alibied for all Tuesday night to Wed morning.
This is why they tried to say she was killed before 7pm in the valley, in broad daylight with many people around who didn't hear anything. Then he came back Thurs nite to move the body to Pt Perry.
It was impossible for RB to have moved the body Tues night because of his alibi and witnesses, so they changed it to Thurs night, however 3days after he was arrested LE got the news from forensics that that theory was impossible according to the forensics.

 

[Julia36]

With all due respect...I find it quite implausible that EB committed suicide or was murdered by her own family. That is quite a leap! If the blood was planted in EB's car then this would be identified through forensic testing as blood vials hold a preservative. As far as drag marks going in but not leading out is really not that big of a mystery. It makes sense that an individual would not have the strength to lift a body and place it in the trunk of the car. So the option would be to drag her into the back seat. When removing the body it would simply be dragged back out in the same direction. No big mystery but rather common sense. The simpliest theory is usually the correct one. This is why RB went through the hell he did. Common sense leads you to the boyfriend. IMO, there was someone else she met that day that looked like RB. This is why there was an eyewitness stating that she was seen in the park with RB or someone resembling RB. The only mystery for me is that her body has never been found. Either it's out there still to be discovered or she was buried somewhere. They have unidentified fingerprints from her car. One day, those fingerprints will be matched. It still is a solvable case.

 

[Woodland]

Well here is one. But I think this went around the world because of the oddity of it. And I think the property was more rural.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...body-front-yard-neola-robinson_n_3610651.html

Yes as for the number 2 that makes no sense for which sorry.....I just think providing your own evidence that a homicide (not a suicide or absconding) has happened is just bound to bring so much more scrutiny that it would be wildly foolhardy to entertain it no matter how much medical knowledge you have as a medical worker. And then leading police by the earthworks in the front yard while you complain about the disappearance would be unbelievable...doesn't mean it didn't happen though.....

As we all know people have trouble getting LE to take disappearances seriously for the simple reason that there is just so many of them. The case of Mariam M. in Toronto was unusual because she had no money was so new to the country etc. Come to think of it why are we so sure Elizabeth is dead? The RB case because it was a homicide case has influenced us. There is no body a small amount of blood as I understand it less than a pint.....and it may not be her blood.

Someone else's blood in the car that is not evidence she is dead. OK a theory I admit a wild one: she could have planned to disappear and would have needed only one other person in the world to help her. Correct?

Someone brought up the case of Mabel Wong which is interesting. That would in and of itself be another theory. Serial.

And as for theories the third is the one I introduced a second Scarborough rapist (and worse). Copycat to Bernardo or the other way around. Over 6 feet with a moustache. Victim of the Scarborough rapist....but it can't be him. I am interested in this as well cause of later behaviour of this one......having a later wife (with kids) that was the spitting image of EB.

A fourth one would be that the search for this "Ken" is related to a previously unknown disappearance in Scarborough in the late 80's as several have surmised on that thread. Which could fit into the EB disappearance. Or as has been suggested LE due to the delicate nature of the case now with the law suit shifted the dates slightly and when we look at Ken we are looking at a suspect in the disappearance in EB or he knows that person. By the way any ethnicity specialists here? Could Ken be Philippino? It is interesting that he lived in several basement apartments.....why so much moving? If he went to Scarborough then LE will know who he is by now for sure. I bet he didn't. My hunch is that is a POI (in regard to EB or a totally unrelated disappearance we don't know about) but they are leaving it open in case he might come forward himself and so others will not be afraid to come forward.

And by the way EB not being in the front yard doesn't mean the theory is not correct still of course.

Again, with all due respect Chorley8, why don't you quote a post that you want to discuss? What you are doing imo is, going back over months of posts or longer, and mixing things up. There is a difference between what LE has said and what I have said. They are not the same thing. This is not the first time btw. Be specific - not vague and well, wrong.

In the future - don't ask me what LE thought or did in a specific case unless you quote a post where I have made a statement on a case. Also not the first time or thread.

 

[Woodland]

”""""""""RB is in the process of amending his lawsuit based on LE withholding CFS confirmation from the beginning that LE's idea of a body in EB's car was not plausible. Planted evidence is a theory posed here - """"""""""

This statement is incorrect woodland. Forensics say that LE's theory of Eb being killed on tuesday, hidden in the valley, then put in her car on Thurs night and driven to pt Perry was impossible due to the lack of decomp odour and bugs and fluids that go along with decomp.
They have never stated or hinted at anytime there was any kind of planting theory.
Their forensic evidence shows the theory that Eb was killed Tues nite and was in and out of the vehicle within about 3hrs. Any longer and decomp would begin to become noticeable in the forensic evidence.

This was the problem for LE because they had RB guilty from the get go, but he was alibied for all Tuesday night to Wed morning.
This is why they tried to say she was killed before 7pm in the valley, in broad daylight with many people around who didn't hear anything. Then he came back Thurs nite to move the body to Pt Perry.
It was impossible for RB to have moved the body Tues night because of his alibi and witnesses, so they changed it to Thurs night, however 3days after he was arrested LE got the news from forensics that that theory was impossible according to the forensics.

UBM

<modsnip> that's what I said. CFS told LE from day 1 their theory that EB was buried, dug up and put in her car was not plausible. This was withheld from RB's defense and he is now in the process of amending his lawsuit to reflect the withholding of the 'buried and dug up' theory not being plausible.

CFS also said the drag marks go into the vehicle but not out.

I said the blood could have been planted by the family - if she was killed in her home that day. Nothing to do with LE or anyone else.

<modsnip>Time can be an enemy sometimes - screws up peoples memories.

 

[Woodland]

With all due respect...I find it quite implausible that EB committed suicide or was murdered by her own family. That is quite a leap! If the blood was planted in EB's car then this would be identified through forensic testing as blood vials hold a preservative. As far as drag marks going in but not leading out is really not that big of a mystery. It makes sense that an individual would not have the strength to lift a body and place it in the trunk of the car. So the option would be to drag her into the back seat. When removing the body it would simply be dragged back out in the same direction. No big mystery but rather common sense. The simpliest theory is usually the correct one. This is why RB went through the hell he did. Common sense leads you to the boyfriend. IMO, there was someone else she met that day that looked like RB. This is why there was an eyewitness stating that she was seen in the park with RB or someone resembling RB. The only mystery for me is that her body has never been found. Either it's out there still to be discovered or she was buried somewhere. They have unidentified fingerprints from her car. One day, those fingerprints will be matched. It still is a solvable case.

If I may, what does 'blood vials hold a preservative mean? The blood in the back of EB's car was never identified as belong to EB's sister - there are only two known female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain. The blood belonged to a female offspring of this union.

One can lift a body into the backseat of a two-door car but not the trunk? OK - your opinion. Removing a body from the backseat of a car causes the same drag marks as inwards or one drags a body out of a car the same way one drags a body in? OK - your opinion. Not so sure about common sense though.

 

[eyesonly]

UBM

<modsnip> that's what I said. CFS told LE from day 1 their theory that EB was buried, dug up and put in her car was not plausible. This was withheld from RB's defense and he is now in the process of amending his lawsuit to reflect the withholding of the 'buried and dug up' theory not being plausible.

CFS also said the drag marks go into the vehicle but not out.

I said the blood could have been planted by the family - if she was killed in her home that day. Nothing to do with LE or anyone else.

<modsnip>Time can be an enemy sometimes - screws up peoples memories.

Very sorry woodland. I seemed to have read that part I quoted wrong. My apologies. I read it as because LE theory was wrong forensics posed the planted theory. But when you said the theory was posed """here"""" I see now that you meant here on this site.
I feel so duh now, but I am going to use age as my excuse.
Uh, wait, can't in good conscience do that, it really was a duh moment on my part.
My apologies again woodland.

 

[Woodland]

For the record, even though CFS told TPS from day 1 their theory did not work, TPS went with it anyway to convict RB - but withheld from the defense that CFS told them it doesn't work - forensically.

 

[dotr]

: http://www.canadianwritersgroup.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Baltovich-May04.pdf
rbbm.
King had compiled the following facts: Bernardo, who had canoed and fished extensively on Lake Scugog as a boy,had spent time there in the spring of 1990,visiting friends; on a number of occasions,Bernardo had eaten at a chicken restaurant in the Scugog area where a witness saw Bain&#8217;s empty car parked in its lot in the early morning hours after her disappearance; as a habit,Bernardo reversed his car into parking spots(the way Bain&#8217;s car was found); and, prior to his relationship with Homolka, Bernardo had dated a young Filipino woman (Bain&#8217;s mother was Filipino) in Scarborough. This former girl-friend told King that, at least twice, Bernardo,wanting to fool around, had led her down into Colonel Danforth Park from Scarborough College, where he was a student.King spoke to another of Bernardo&#8217;s former girlfriends after Bernardo was convicted at the conclusion of his multiple murder trial on September 1, 1995.Janine Godsoe (the pseudonym I gave her in my book) had attended high school with Elizabeth Bain, and as soon as she heard about her disappearance, Godsoe was convinced that Bernardo, who had, at the end of their relationship, terrorized her in a park area not far from the Scarborough campus tennis courts, had something to do with it

 

[Woodland]

: http://www.canadianwritersgroup.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Baltovich-May04.pdf
rbbm.
King had compiled the following facts: Bernardo, who had canoed and fished extensively on Lake Scugog as a boy,had spent time there in the spring of 1990,visiting friends; on a number of occasions,Bernardo had eaten at a chicken restaurant in the Scugog area where a witness saw Bain&#8217;s empty car parked in its lot in the early morning hours after her disappearance; as a habit,Bernardo reversed his car into parking spots(the way Bain&#8217;s car was found); and, prior to his relationship with Homolka, Bernardo had dated a young Filipino woman (Bain&#8217;s mother was Filipino) in Scarborough. This former girl-friend told King that, at least twice, Bernardo,wanting to fool around, had led her down into Colonel Danforth Park from Scarborough College, where he was a student.King spoke to another of Bernardo&#8217;s former girlfriends after Bernardo was convicted at the conclusion of his multiple murder trial on September 1, 1995.Janine Godsoe (the pseudonym I gave her in my book) had attended high school with Elizabeth Bain, and as soon as she heard about her disappearance, Godsoe was convinced that Bernardo, who had, at the end of their relationship, terrorized her in a park area not far from the Scarborough campus tennis courts, had something to do with it

Is there a theory as to what happened in the park that night regarding Bernardo and EB? We know she wasn't left there deceased and put into her car at a later date.

Fwiw, I don't believe 'a witness' who did not know EB, saw her car in a lot at Lake Scugog in the 'early morning hours' after her disappearance. Find that as bad as 401 guy - seeing EB as a passenger in her own car, someone 401 guy did not know, flying along in the eastbound lanes looking like she needed help. And the only one he mentioned that to was his bartender. Something he swore to later.

EB left her purse and ID in her room, according to family, along with her homework due for a class that night - while she instead gallivanted around out of town? What is the usual theory when a woman leaves her purse/ID at home and goes missing?

One thing King did not check - and it is posted here earlier was, what was the scheduled date for Mr Bain to return home from Florida? He only determined that Mr Bain did in fact return home later the morning that EB was reported missing. Mrs B took care of everything and only told her husband their daughter was missing when she picked him up.

 

[Julia36]

<modsnip> Your comments regarding the blood in EB's car belonging "to a female offspring" is contradictory to your statement "not belonging to EB's sister". This leaves EB and the blood belonging to her. No big mystery there!

<modsnip>I do feel that there is another serial killer lurking in Ontario. There are many unsolved homicides over the years and I would not be surprised to find out that there is another Bernardo or Colonel Russell Williams. The fact that EB's body has never been found, has added a lot of mystery to this case. I believe that the witness that identified RB with EB at the tennis court that day was mistaken and actually saw someone that resembled RB. Since EB had left her assignment and personal effects at home leads to the theory that she didn't intend to be away from home for very long that day. IMO, the most logical action is usually the correct one. This is why homicide investigations always start with the family and work outwards. It seems that the case stalls at that point. I do not believe that the family had any involvement in her disappearance and I feel that it is cruel to speculate in that direction.

 

[Julia36]

If I may, what does 'blood vials hold a preservative mean? The blood in the back of EB's car was never identified as belong to EB's sister - there are only two known female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain. The blood belonged to a female offspring of this union.

One can lift a body into the backseat of a two-door car but not the trunk? OK - your opinion. Removing a body from the backseat of a car causes the same drag marks as inwards or one drags a body out of a car the same way one drags a body in? OK - your opinion. Not so sure about common sense though.

When moving a body to the trunk of a car, one must lift the body. To move a body into the back seat floor boards, one needs only to drag. Hence, the drag marks that were found. Lifting dead weight, such as a body, would be quite a task for one person to do themselves. As far as the perservative in the blood, what I was stating is that when blood is taken (phlebotomy) the vials that hold the blood also contain a preservative. This was the only point I was making. To me, the drag marks are of no mystery. Common sense. You drag a body that is bleeding, its gonna leave drag marks. Pulling the body the same direction outwards may not have left any drag marks. Its either she was dragged or picked up. Since to drag is easier, this would be my guess.

 

[Julia36]

One theory that I will throw out there has to do with what they found in her car. It was reported that EB sometimes smoked and that there was a pack of Du Maurier Light's found in her car. As well, they found one of those cigarettes with the filter broken off. What I am wondering is if EB let an undentified male in her car on the premise of smoking some dope together? Being in such a public place, they may have moved her vehicle to a more secluded location for this purpose where the assault on EB occurs. This male would have to know how to drive a standard transmission and would have been in the habit of backing up into his parking spots. His car could have been parked nearby the park thereby, moving EB's body into his vehicle and further moved to a mysterious location...a forest or woodland type area probably. The fact that the perpetrator has no known connection to EB is what makes this case so difficult to solve, IMO. I wonder if they run the fingerprints found in her car every few years or so? I would be curious to know if this was the case or not.

 

[eyesonly]

Posted by julia36 """"This is why homicide investigations always start with the family and work outwards. It seems that the case stalls at that point. I do not believe that the family had any involvement in her disappearance and I feel that it is cruel to speculate in that direction"""""

Julia36, homicide never started with the family in this case whatsoever. They had never investigated any of the family. They went right to the bf RB from the get go.
As you stated, we are all here with different theories to help out, so I don't believe that speculating family involvement is cruel in any way. After all, as you stated, LE were supposed to start with them and they never did.
I will say there is nothing to eliminate family involvement, but there are so many issues and inconsistencies in their stories to suspect 1 or more of involvement.
we don't know what happened to EB, so if we exclude anyone without reasonable evidence then we run the risk of tunnel vision as done with RB and all the other wrongly convicted.
In doing so we overlook possible crucial evidence. As you stated, keep an open mind.

 

[JohnPaul]

This is why homicide investigations always start with the family and work outwards. It seems that the case stalls at that point.

<mod snip>

the family was never investigated, all eyes were focused on the man that LE framed and convicted because they were under pressure to make an arrest any which way possible,

 

[dotr]

Lol, watch it turn out to be Karla H all along!

When Hoover asks, "Did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June 19, 1990?" Bernardo responds: "Well, that's a loaded question. I mean, are we going to go back and go through the time sequence of what happened in my life? I mean I could just give a yes or no answer. But you know, there are a lot of issues about that."

He mentions &#8211; not for the first time &#8211; his ex-wife, Karla Homolka, was never given a polygraph test to confirm his version of events.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/06/11/glimpse_of_a_schoolgirl_killer.html

 

[eyesonly]

Lol, watch it turn out to be Karla H all along!


https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/06/11/glimpse_of_a_schoolgirl_killer.html

His reply encompassed everything that went on, even though it sounds like it is in sole regards to EB.
He goes on about how the cops don't believe him anyway so what's the use of answering. And he so desperately wanted them to polygragh karla about the things they did together to show that she was the one who killed the girls.
He is mix mashing a lot of things if you watch the video a few times.
His gorrila comment isn't in regards to EB, though it sounds like it. It's in regards to how the cops have viewed him as a liar, so if he says no, that wouldn't really mean anything anyway.
He is just playing games. He's got free time out of the cell and he's maximizing it.

JMO

 

[Julia36]

<mod snip>

the family was never investigated, all eyes were focused on the man that LE framed and convicted because they were under pressure to make an arrest any which way possible,

My comment was that the investigation should have started at the family. I'm not saying that in this case that this actually happened. Clearly they did focus on RB right from the beginning. I agree that an open mind is needed in order to make progress with this case, however, I don't think that a cover up by the family is really a viable direction to take this case. Is there truly evidence leading to this fact or is this mere speculation? IMO, we need to follow the facts and evidence.

<mod snip>

 

[Julia36]

His reply encompassed everything that went on, even though it sounds like it is in sole regards to EB.
He goes on about how the cops don't believe him anyway so what's the use of answering. And he so desperately wanted them to polygragh karla about the things they did together to show that she was the one who killed the girls.
He is mix mashing a lot of things if you watch the video a few times.
His gorrila comment isn't in regards to EB, though it sounds like it. It's in regards to how the cops have viewed him as a liar, so if he says no, that wouldn't really mean anything anyway.
He is just playing games. He's got free time out of the cell and he's maximizing it.

JMO

Bernardo totally danced around the questions by investigators and never truely answered the question. His biggest concern was whether Peel Regional Police had looked into some kind of statement he had previously provided to them. Some kind of pathetic attempt to make a deal in exchange for confessions. He also stated that when it came to EB that this was a 25 year sentence...in other words, even if he did do it, he wasn't about to admit to it. He wants out of prison and is not about to confess to another murder. The only thing I wonder about when it comes to Bernardo and EB is that he had not escalated to murder, at this point. He certainly is a viable suspect and it should continue to be investigated.

 

[JohnPaul]

I agree that an open mind is needed in order to make progress with this case, however, I don't think that a cover up by the family is really a viable direction to take this case.

why not?

<modsnip>

at this point everything and anything is a possibility....why exclude the family from the possibility? <modsnip>