Graphic Photos/ Day 6 The Garotte, The Cord, and Paint brush/12 Days of JonBenet

[questfortrue]

I think this is where I found it possibly. Mind you I was probably exhausted when I read it. Does anyone have any confirmation that LPH ever said this?
Maybe a long term sleuth may know?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...2760855&highlight=playing+doctor#post12760855

MOO

I'm not a long term sleuth but here's what I know.The information about finding BR and JB under the covers and yelling at the housekeeper LHP is something one of our very reliable posters mentioned once when I was a newbie here. Because I respected that poster, who has incredible knowledge about the case, I took it for true. Later, though, I learned from another knowledgeable poster that there has never been an original source for that information. FWIW, I know that one of the Rs' friends has alluded to an event of molestation between the kids which she would not elaborate about in a post online. Again, secondhand info.

 

[PositiveLight]

I'm not a long term sleuth but here's what I know.The information about finding BR and JB under the covers and yelling at the housekeeper LHP is something one of our very reliable posters mentioned once when I was a newbie here. Because I respected that poster, who has incredible knowledge about the case, I took it for true. Later, though, I learned from another knowledgeable poster that there has never been an original source for that information. FWIW, I know that one of the Rs' friends has alluded to an event of molestation between the kids which she would not elaborate about in a post online. Again, secondhand info.

Thank you for your response!

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not a long term sleuth but here's what I know.The information about finding BR and JB under the covers and yelling at the housekeeper LHP is something one of our very reliable posters mentioned once when I was a newbie here. Because I respected that poster, who has incredible knowledge about the case, I took it for true. Later, though, I learned from another knowledgeable poster that there has never been an original source for that information. FWIW, I know that one of the Rs' friends has alluded to an event of molestation between the kids which she would not elaborate about in a post online. Again, secondhand info.

questfortrue,
Its cited in one of the books. Probably PMPT, since the style is anecdotal. The funny bit is the kids yelling at LHP to go away.

Just going to watch Rich And Acquitted S01E01 Michael Jackson its all about his molestation case.

 

[BBB167893]

WARNING! GRAPHIC PICTURES OF JONBENET AT MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE.

The garotte, the cord, and the paintbrush.

The garotte. Is it a complicated knot that makes the garotte or is it a simple knot that anyone can do.

The cord. Where did it come from? Where did the rest of the cord go? Was there more cord?

The paint brush handle. It was broken to make the garotte. It came from Patsy's paint tote.

Was the garrote, the ligatures around JonBenet wrists, all part of staging? Was this staging done by someone trying to think like a criminal?

There are two great places to look into the garrote. One place is our own thread started in 2006 on Websleuths. CLICK here to read the thread

As always acandyrose.com has extensive coverage of the garotte, paintbrush, and cord. CLICK HERE

There is so much to discuss here. Let's put all of these things to rest in this thread by explaining each piece of evidence.

Below are some pictures of the garotte and the crime scene. WARNING GRAPHIC pictures of JonBenet at the medical examiner's office.

Dear God, that last picture will be with me until the day I die. Which reminds me: John said on Dr. Phil today that JonBenet looked "peaceful." It reminded me of what Patsy said about her at the funeral, about how perfect she looked. Which suggests two things to me: one, it was staged, because people who die violent deaths usually look like people who die violent deaths; two, that the garrote was chosen so it wouldn't distort her face too much (perhaps not taking decomp into consideration).

Now, as to the questions:

1)The garotte. Is it a complicated knot that makes the garotte or is it a simple knot that anyone can do.

Both Michael Kane and Jim Kolar (I think) have quoted a knot expert (John Van Tassel I think his name was) as saying that these were simple knots.

The cord. Where did it come from? Where did the rest of the cord go? Was there more cord?

My opinion only, but I lean strongly toward the cord coming from something that was already in the house, like a painting sling. They teach you how to make those in art classes, and Patsy took painting lessons. As to the other two questions, I think I can respond to both at once: I don't think there was any more cord and they used what they had.

The paint brush handle. It was broken to make the garotte. It came from Patsy's paint tote.

Yes. What I'd like to know is whether or not it was already broken. Forensic techs can usually tell if something was broken recently or not due to wear on the edges. So, it's likely that the bristle part had been broken before and the stick was still used as a paint-stirrer. But that doesn't account for the tip. If the tip was used to penetrate JonBenet, and was broken off later, where did it go? So that leaves us two possiblities: she wasn't penetrated with it, or it was disposed of. And it would not be difficult to dispose of it. Burn it, chop it up and flush it, etc.

Was the garrote, the ligatures around JonBenet wrists, all part of staging? Was this staging done by someone trying to think like a criminal?

I vote yes to both. There's no way that the wrist ties would have actually worked as shown. Only a dead person couldn't get out. Maybe they just didn't know what kind of knot to use. And the garrote would have been very inefficient as seen because the person would have to choke up their grip. Why put a handle on it in the first place?

Or how about this? Everyone let me know what you think about this idea: JonBenet would have had to have been flipped back and forth to do all of what was done. The person who did all of this would have to hold her vaginal lips apart with one hand while whatever object was inserted, requiring both hands. And JB would have to be on her back, because the injury inside her was down and to the left (if you're facing her), the way a right-handed person would do it. Then, they'd have to turn her onto her face, tie the garrote onto her (because her hair was in it), tie a handle onto the other end and pull it tight. That completely torpedoes the intruder theory (at least the Smit theory) because in order to do all of that on a live, fighting girl, they'd have to restrain her, tie the garrote onto her and pull it tight while molesting her, all the while having bisected her body so her upper half was face-down while her lower half was face-up. They'd need about four arms and be able to put the laws of anatomy in a half-nelson to do all of this. And I'm pretty sure there were no Hindu gods or Greek mythological monsters bopping around Boulder in December of '96!

Any thoughts on anything I've put forth?

 

[BBB167893]

Tricia, when will we have a DNA day?
Everybody around here knows I am not IDI so I am posting this only because I wanna understand things better.
There was this expert on the A&E show claiming that contamination is excluded because matching DNA was found on BOTH sides of JB'S pants.Is he right, is he wrong, can someone pls elaborate?TIA

I would remind you madeleine, that this expert did not work the case and did not have all the information. That being said, I seem to recall that the waistband of the panties had the same DNA on it. And, we don't know how much of a "match" it was because no one has ever said hom many loci (markers) there were.

 

[BBB167893]

It is possible that she was swung and hit something (a dresser, a doorway), instead of something being swung to hit her. It doesn't fit with what I think probably happened but I figured I would put it out there as a possibility.

I do think it was possible. Someone here mentioned that there was a contrecoup injury on the left side of JB's brain, as though her head struck, and the brain bounced back against the other side.

 

[BBB167893]

The garrote is one of the things that makes me think JR was involved in the coverup. As a middle aged woman with no military experience, a garotte is completely alien and unfamiliar to me.

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I'm glad this came up. John was in the Navy in the 80's, stationed in the Philippines. At the time, there were numerous rebel factions fighting the Marcos regime, and the Navy was trained in garrotes because the locals used them. The Philippines were once a Spanish colony, and garroting was a method of execution used by the Spanish long after the other European empires had abandoned it.

 

[charminglane]

I do think it was possible. Someone here mentioned that there was a contrecoup injury on the left side of JB's brain, as though her head struck, and the brain bounced back against the other side.

I believe this as well.
My brother was swung by his ankles in the living room and cracked his head on the corner of the wall. He was 4.
Many stitches later, he was fine.
However now, he recently asked us if he ever had a brain injury, as his Doctor was wondering. He is 48 now.

 

[Talia]

Yes, that is one massive skull fracture. Could she have fallen or been dropped?

It really is a massive fracture. It was considered blunt force trauma, meaning she was hit with a blunt object. Her injuries don't match up with being dropped. But that was originally theorized.

 

[Talia]

None of these devices could have been used in the ways they were suggested. It is all a part of an elaborate staging. The fact that she was wiped down, leans to the idea that it was NOT just a paintbrush. Poor baby! My heart aches for everything she went through.

 

[Talia]

Which reminds me: John said on Dr. Phil today that JonBenet looked "peaceful."


Any thoughts on anything I've put forth?

I know! I couldn't believe JR said that, or that he was relieved to find her dead body. Why would a parent ever be relieved to find their dead child? He must actually been glad to have been the one to "find" her, thus contaminating evidence.

You clearly prove that an intruder couldn't have done it! Since there was prior sexual abuse, I'm sure knew JB exactly what was going to happen, and she was fighting back. This person was no stranger to her, which is why these things could not have been done simultaneously, especially without the rest of the household hearing something. Very strong points!

 

[YouWho]

It doesn't look like a grab, though. Too me, a "grab" would produce marks to the front and the rear of the shoulder area. The mark seen in the photo appears to be at the very top surface area of the shoulder. Like the shoulder would have been struck with something from above it.

Trying here to figure out what could have caused such a mark. And I'm sure the ME was trying to figure out that very same thing. But they cannot put any guesses or suppositions into an official autopsy report. So all we get is a description of the bruise and a photo of the bruise.

What about the triangle shaped bruise at her front neck? Consistent with someone grabbing and twisting her shirt collar?

 

[BBB167893]

I know! I couldn't believe JR said that, or that he was relieved to find her dead body. Why would a parent ever be relieved to find their dead child? He must actually been glad to have been the one to "find" her, thus contaminating evidence.

Yeah, he gave away more than he wanted, I'm sure.

You clearly prove that an intruder couldn't have done it! Since there was prior sexual abuse, I'm sure knew JB exactly what was going to happen, and she was fighting back. This person was no stranger to her, which is why these things could not have been done simultaneously, especially without the rest of the household hearing something. Very strong points!

Thanks, Talia.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Having just read the "Bonita papers" for the first time, I was unaware until now that the autopsy findings included bruising at both shoulder areas. And now, seeing the side photo of JB's body, the bruising on her right shoulder is visible. That is some heavy bruising on that shoulder!

Madeline: The autopsy results I just read said she was alive at the time of the blow to the head (as evidenced by bleeding in the brain) and was also alive at the time of strangulation (as evidenced by petechiae). Cause of death was asphyxia due to strangulation, so yes, absolutely the rope was more than just staging. Not that she would not have likely died from the blow to the head, but the strangulation is what killed her.

I think what makes it difficult for me to latch on to the idea that strangulation wasn't part of the staging is the construction of the "garrote" itself. It's not an actual garrote. The whole point of the stick part of the construction would be to tighten the rope around her neck by turning the stick. Obviously, that would not work the way this particular "garrote" was constructed. So, why is it even there? If a child is already unconscious, you certainly don't need to construct a silly movie prop in order to strangle her. And if you are an intruder in someone else's home, where her other family members are sleeping, you damned sure don't take time to construct a useless prop to strangle a child when the cord alone would have accomplished the goal.

In my mind, this device just reeks of staging.

 

[DatelineFan]

Sadly, I want to point out that victims who are chronically abused don't always kick and scream. Sexual abuse can be quiet.

I don't believe IDI, but I feel this is important.

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[Mountain_Kat]

Yes, that is one massive skull fracture. Could she have fallen or been dropped?

This is OT for the thread, but have you ever heard so much about, say, a house you've never seen, that you created a very clear picture of what the house must look like in your mind? And then you actually go to the house, and you are shocked because it is just nothing like you pictured it in your head. And you think the house looks "wrong", even though intellectually, you know that it's your vision of the house that is actually wrong? That's sort of where I am with respect to the blow to the head and the other physical injuries (save sexual assault and strangulation). I have always just visualized it in my mind that JB was in the kitchen, someone got pissed and grabbed her by the front of the shirt, and she broke free and made for the spiral staircase. Somewhere near the top, this person bashed her over the head and she fell the rest of the way to the bottom. Any time I try to see this event in any other way, it just seems wrong to me, because this visual in my head is so embedded. I've heard some very solid theories about how and where the blow to the head occurred, but they just never feel "right" to me, because I can't shake my own visual of what happened.

Not a smart place to be...certainly not logical...but there it is.:gaah:

 

[YouWho]

Sadly, I want to point out that victims who are chronically abused don't always kick and scream. Sexual abuse can be quiet.

I don't believe IDI, but I feel this is important.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk

DF: What do you make of the 3-5 second scream heard between 10-12pm by the neighbor across the street?

 

[YouWho]

This is OT for the thread, but have you ever heard so much about, say, a house you've never seen, that you created a very clear picture of what the house must look like in your mind? And then you actually go to the house, and you are shocked because it is just nothing like you pictured it in your head. And you think the house looks "wrong", even though intellectually, you know that it's your vision of the house that is actually wrong? That's sort of where I am with respect to the blow to the head and the other physical injuries (save sexual assault and strangulation). I have always just visualized it in my mind that JB was in the kitchen, someone got pissed and grabbed her by the front of the shirt, and she broke free and made for the spiral staircase. Somewhere near the top, this person bashed her over the head and she fell the rest of the way to the bottom. Any time I try to see this event in any other way, it just seems wrong to me, because this visual in my head is so embedded. I've heard some very solid theories about how and where the blow to the head occurred, but they just never feel "right" to me, because I can't shake my own visual of what happened.

Not a smart place to be...certainly not logical...but there it is.:gaah:

I get what you're saying. I'm a visual learner too. Reminds me of all the completely innocent folks who had to give DNA samples simply because they were curious .

 

[DatelineFan]

DF: What do you make of the 3-5 second scream heard between 10-12pm by the neighbor across the street?

I don't have a solid theory about the scream. I do not believe that JB was sleeping, first of all.

I think it's possible that the scream was a sibling argument. I didn't know JB, but many 6 year old girls will scream like crazy if their brother takes their doll. Especially in a late night after Christmas festivities.

I think if BDI, it could have been Patsy finding JB.

I definitely don't think it was sexual abuse, though. Many grown women don't even scream when raped. People freeze, dissociate, etc. I'll try to grab a link later, but I doubt the information is difficult to find.

What about you?

ETA, I also think 3-5 seconds is pretty long, but I wasn't there.

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[Mountain_Kat]

For me personally, it's impossible to take Stanton's account of hearing a scream seriously, so I've thrown it out altogether. When someone says they hear a child scream, then say maybe it wasn't an actual scream, but rather the child's " negative energy" being felt, then says that, oh yes, it was a scream...meh. You either hear it or you don't.