Was Burke Involved ? # 3

[andreww]

I'm torn on that one, for sure I know it is a sign of abuse, but John's older children also wet the bed so it could be genetic. Or of course, the only common parent all those bed wetters share is John and he could have been abusing all of them I suppose. I just don't know if that is common though. Does an abuser usually choose one of several children or abuse all siblings? I honestly lean more toward their family just wets the bed for a really long time. The poop issues on the other hand scream abuse of some kind to me.

I think his answer on the bedwetting was taken out of context. He says, and I'm paraphrasing here... "At six? I don't know, but at one point we wet the bed 2 or 3 times a week". He didn't say he was wetting the bed when he was nine, and he didn't give a definite answer as to what was going on with JBR at 6. Basically al he said was that they both wet the bed as toddlers.

 

[Funky funky]

I agree Andreww, I think he has been keeping a secret this whole time. What that secret is, I'm not sure. At the very least I believe he was there when the 911 call was made and his parents made him lie that he slept through the whole thing to protect him from being questioned, hence the signs of untruthfullness that came across in the interview.

 

[waltzingmatilda]

This is a very interesting theory, Luckymanuh -- you bring up some very key points! I had never considered the possibility that the train track prong abrasions occurred prior to the other injuries -- I'd always assumed they were done later -- maybe to see if JBR was still alive by jabbing her with it? But you made me think about this in a new way - thanks for the post!

One of my theories has been very similar to Luckymanuh's theory rojamom. Thanks Luckymanuh for putting it into words.

Thinking back to my own childhood, my brother and I would sneak around the house during Christmas season. We would argue over sharing toys and bop one another in the head, arm or wherever was convenient. We upwrapped and rewrapped presents. We were bad. Our Mom had a volitile temper and when she snapped, woe be unto you. Depending on which one of us was in trouble the other would run hide in our room to escape her wrath. This is a totally plausible theory in my opinion.

 

[Errrr]

I think Burke has just been removed from society for fear of what he might say. He was an awkward 9 year old, now he's an awkward 29 year old, simply because he's probably been locked in a room for 20 years playing video games. Think of it this way, if your kid were keeping a secret like that about you, would you feel comfortable with him getting drunk with his college buddies or getting close with his first girlfriend? Your late teens or early 20s is the time in life where children move away from their parents and start making friends. They share everything. I doubt Burke was ever allowed to be alone with anybody until he could be 100% trusted, so its no surprise that he seems so socially inept.

Yes, "Keep smiling. Look normal".
It seems tragic that what seems to have been accidental, whoever was involved, has transformed into such a media frenzy that the family will never escape. If they had addressed the injury from the start, that girl could have survived and the incident eventually forgotten. If the son were involved it would not be such a big deal for someone so young and they could have got help. It would all turn out okay. But now, it's like the more lies they tell the more ruin rains down on that family.

 

[AmyPond]

A couple days after the murder Patsy's sister was allowed into the crime scene to get funeral clothing. She was given a sheriff's jacket with a badge and took mostly things not worn to funerals including several American Girl Dolls. I doubt everyone there knew everyone else sheriff's office (DA) vs police and it may be she was assumed to be collecting evidence in an official manner. It was arranged by the office of Alex Hunter.

The dolls have tan cotton bodies and tan cotton was found on the duct tape. The company at one time offered using duct tape on the back of the dolls if customers complained about the neck strings tangling with the hair, but one of many options. One doll comes dressed in shedding navy wool and dark fibers were found wiped on her. Smit reported lots of hair was found but never attempted to connect it to a human so the possibility it was wig hair from a doll is great. The DA was told about the dolls in 2000 and did nothing. There is no valid reason for the Ramseys to want the dolls removed other than they were evidence used in the staging.

Did I read that she also took golf clubs out of the house? Or no?

 

[AmyPond]

Since I am really on the fence about everything...I have a couple questions for those firmly in the BDI group....

Do you think Burke struck JB with an object out of anger in a more 'sudden' way or do you think he truly wanted to kill her?
Do you think he was involved in the strangulation at all?

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

What I think is the Ramseys did not discuss JonBenet or that night at all with BUrke and I think he learned not to think about it himself and it faded in his memory. I am sure he was discouraged from speaking about any of it. There are many things I had forgotten from my childhood that while discussing those years with my siblings things are brought back into my memory.

 

[andreww]

Yes, "Keep smiling. Look normal".
It seems tragic that what seems to have been accidental, whoever was involved, has transformed into such a media frenzy that the family will never escape. If they had addressed the injury from the start, that girl could have survived and the incident eventually forgotten. If the son were involved it would not be such a big deal for someone so young and they could have got help. It would all turn out okay. But now, it's like the more lies they tell the more ruin rains down on that family.

I don't think what happened here was accidental. The force needed to split her skull in the manner it was shows that this was not an accident. It was deliberate and with force. The fact that they chose to cover it up rather than calling 911 proves it.

 

[andreww]

What I think is the Ramseys did not discuss JonBenet or that night at all with BUrke and I think he learned not to think about it himself and it faded in his memory. I am sure he was discouraged from speaking about any of it. There are many things I had forgotten from my childhood that while discussing those years with my siblings things are brought back into my memory.

I disagree. I think burke has been told to follow the same mantra that Patsy and John follow... "we came home, put her to bed, then went to sleep ourselves. She was gone in the morning." Burke, just like his parents is simply maintaining a stance of ignorance. He knows what happened, but so long as he and John keep their mouths shut, nobody can touch them.

 

[icedtea4me]

According to Team Ramsey now, the unknown "touch DNA" belongs to a Hispanic male.

So that narrows it.

A Hispanic male who was extremely close to the family, so close in fact that he knew the exact amount of John's bonus, who knew Patsy'a morning routine, and who Jonbenet felt comfortable enough sharing a late night pineapple snack with.

A Hispanic male who also doesn't have an alibi for Christmas.

A Hispanic male who is also a ninja, since he has the remarkable ability to break into homes without disturbing spiderwebs or vegetation outside windows.

A Hispanic male who is educated enough he knows how to spell "attaché ". ...complete with the accent! (So it would rule out migrant workers)

Should be an extremly easy case to solve. Why hasn't there been an arrest yet?

Answer: because the touch DNA is irrelevent and there was no intruder, that's why.

1. The exact amount of John's bonus was $118,117.50, not $118,000. (DoI, pg 120)
2. I think it's rather presumptuous of you to claim what a Hispanic migrant worker would or wouldn't know.

 

[GoldenFleece]

I don't think what happened here was accidental. The force needed to split her skull in the manner it was shows that this was not an accident. It was deliberate and with force. The fact that they chose to cover it up rather than calling 911 proves it.

I think the blow to the head wasn't the deciding factor on choosing to cover up. A blow to the head can be passed off as an accident, even if not, you could pass it off a sibling squabble and a brother who didn't know his own strength.

Nope, the only thing that caused the cover up was the vaginal damage done to JB either before or after the blow to the head which had JB bleeding from her vagina and which washed up. That is something that cannot be waived as an accident. And child abuse in the family, is something that a socialite who needed to have the most perfect looking family like PR could not abide other people from knowing.

I don't know if they thought JB was dead or alive when they applied the "garrote", but its chilling that they (or just Patsy) would rather cover it up than face social embarrassment. Also to protect BR as well.

 

[andreww]

I think the blow to the head wasn't the deciding factor on choosing to cover up. A blow to the head can be passed off as an accident, even if not, you could pass it off a sibling squabble and a brother who didn't know his own strength.

Nope, the only thing that caused the cover up was the vaginal damage done to JB either before or after the blow to the head which had JB bleeding from her vagina and which washed up. That is something that cannot be waived as an accident. And child abuse in the family, is something that a socialite who needed to have the most perfect looking family like PR could not abide other people from knowing.

I don't know if they thought JB was dead or alive when they applied the "garrote", but its chilling that they (or just Patsy) would rather cover it up than face social embarrassment. Also to protect BR as well.

I get what you are saying and I don't totally disagree. However, the sexual abuse could not be proved conclusively, and even today it is debated about by experts. So why take the bold move to kill her and sexually assault her with the paintbrush, leading investigators directly to any previous sexual abuse evidence? Who know, maybe Burke and JBR are playing doctor with the paintbrush and JBR is injured and screams, then Burke cracks her with the flashlight to shut her up. Now you have an interesting scenario, a half dead girl, bleeding vagina, and your sons DNA all over her. Can you call 911?

 

[hot cawfeee]

So many awesome comments--- but no shock considering the group on WS. I saw episode one and sadly missed two--hoping to catch it (but I have been able to watch ID Discovery).

IIRC on Dr Phil's first episode the Doc said that Burke had been paid for his interview. I am sure I heard correctly b/c its my understanding the show doesn't pay for interviews. But moving along---it has always been my opinion that Burke was involved.( The adult with odd smirk/smile is uncomfortable to watch. Is it Aspergers? Maybe....cannot say.) Patsy and John covered up the murder. Some things I find hard to believe is that there was a broken window in the basement for weeks---there are children in the house--you live ten or so houses from a church that houses the homeless and you do not secure your home ? I am a cop's daughter so that jumped out at me as odd.
Also Patsy finding the note "on the stairs". A very long and wordy ransom note that utilizes paper from your home.
I had heard also that Burke was downstairs while Patsy was on the phone--- that may have been from the Schiller book that I read a long time ago.
It seems that an "intruder" would have to get around the house very quickly and quietly to secure areas with a small child. Unless Patsy and John drank themselves to sleep---and there is no indication of that that I have read--IMO I cannot fathom someone/ones going thru the house, up and down stairs, opening and closing a fridge, opening a drawer for a spoon etc and being undetected.

 

[Frigga]

Since I am really on the fence about everything...I have a couple questions for those firmly in the BDI group....

Do you think Burke struck JB with an object out of anger in a more 'sudden' way or do you think he truly wanted to kill her?
Do you think he was involved in the strangulation at all?

I'm BDI but I don't think he set out to kill her. No.

As far as the cover up- I'm not certain who did what but Burke knows more then he's saying and I believe Patsy wrote the ransom novel.

Like I've stated before I think JR was the molester and possibly Burke too. They were all covering their own arses.

I wonder if Patsy was a big part of the catalyst that tipped the scales for much of Burkes dysfunctional behavior because she favored JB so openly and blatantly. I think she doted on JB but only placated Burke with the latest clothes and toys- Patsy didn't want to ride bikes or play video games with him- that's for certain.

I think Patsy was capable of disassociating herself and had the propensity to experience a psychotic break (due to cancer, stress, marriage troubles and a young son presenting with serious psychological issues).

I think Christmas 1996 was the perfect storm when all of the sick and painful exleriences and behaviors collided in a tragedy of Shakespearean proportion at the 15th Street house. MVHO

 

[BRDotson]

I agree with an earlier poster who said, John put Burke on t.v. to train him, how to carry on the family secret. I think it may of backfired, I know several friends and family members, who have never followed the case too deep, after the DP interview, they all agree BR is creepy and believe, he was involved or atleast knows something. Personally, Idk if BR did it or not, but I think he knows more than he says, I'm sure he's heard his parents talk in secret about it.
I think once the old man dies, a lazy Detective, could have him talking fast.

 

[AmyPond]

I wish the camera never left Burke's face during the DP interview.

Obviously most of the time he just seems to have the same expression plastered on his face. But once in a while, you can almost seen a hint of a genuine expression.

Around the 35 minute mark, Dr. Phil says "The observations that were leaked to the press was that it was unusual that you felt safe, that you felt little warmth toward the family..." etc. After the "little warmth" part, for a split second, Burke has a weird expression. He raises his eyebrows a bit and almost looks annoyed. I don't know if it's significant at all. But I found it interesting because it wasn't the same look he'd had throughout.

Anyone else notice that with some of the more serious questions - "Did you sexually abuse your sister?" and whatnot...he doesn't just say "no." He says, "absolutely not." I noticed "absolutely" said a lot.

 

[GoldenFleece]

I get what you are saying and I don't totally disagree. However, the sexual abuse could not be proved conclusively, and even today it is debated about by experts. So why take the bold move to kill her and sexually assault her with the paintbrush, leading investigators directly to any previous sexual abuse evidence? Who know, maybe Burke and JBR are playing doctor with the paintbrush and JBR is injured and screams, then Burke cracks her with the flashlight to shut her up. Now you have an interesting scenario, a half dead girl, bleeding vagina, and your sons DNA all over her. Can you call 911?

I did not say that Burke had sexually abuse her for a period of time. I'm saying I think he did sexually abuse her the night in question, which is enough for doctors in the hospital to ask a few questions and for neighbours mouths to gossip (the shame!).

It in my mind is the only reason his parents would have covered for him, and the only reason not to call 911 immediately.

Imagine (if you don't want to, I understand, its horrible). You hear a scream, you run down to the basement to find your 6 year old daughter unconscious, barely breathing, and blood all over her inner thighs, a paintbrush sticking out of her genitals , your son is standing over her with a flashlight in his hand. What do you do? Its not as black and white a decision as you think.

 

[osu]

Just a reminder that Dr Phil's interview with Burke is a 3-part interview. The 3rd part will air on Monday, September 19th.

Ramsey’s interview is part of a 3-part series airing on “Dr. Phil” on September 12th, 13th, and 19th. JonBenet’s father, John Ramsey, also speaks to Dr. Phil in what he says will be his final interview and the very last time he will comment publicly on his daughter’s murder.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jonbenet-ramseys-brother-breaks-his-silence-to-dr-phil/

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I had to skip a lot of posts this afternoon due to time constraints, but I do feel it's important to just take a moment to clarify a few things, because some of what Burke said in the DP interview muddied the waters a bit.

1. Burke did NOT receive an electric train set that Christmas. It's important to correct his comment on that because some of you seem to be under the impression that it was a train set that he was working on putting together the evening/early morning of the 26.

2. Whatever item he was working on putting together (I recall reading that it was a model), this was on the ground floor of the Ramsey home. Either the livingroom, diningroom, sunroom, etc. This did NOT occur in the basement.

3. Burke owned a train set prior to 1996. The train was kept in the train room of the basement. Several sources also state that parts of the train set (tracks, if memory serves) were found in Burke's bedroom. There has never been any source that stated there were train tracks or train parts on the ground floor of that house.

( If I am not correct in anything I've stated here, please feel free to correct me. It's important to get this right. Thanks.)

 

[osu]

I had to skip a lot of posts this afternoon due to time constraints, but I do feel it's important to just take a moment to clarify a few things, because some of what Burke said in the DP interview muddied the waters a bit.

1. Burke did NOT receive an electric train set that Christmas. It's important to correct his comment on that because some of you seem to be under the impression that it was a train set that he was working on putting together the evening/early morning of the 26.

2. Whatever item he was working on putting together (I recall reading that it was a model), this was on the ground floor of the Ramsey home. Either the livingroom, diningroom, sunroom, etc. This did NOT occur in the basement.

3. Burke owned a train set prior to 1996. The train was kept in the train room of the basement. Several sources also state that parts of the train set (tracks, if memory serves) were found in Burke's bedroom. There has never been any source that stated there were train tracks or train parts on the ground floor of that house.

( If I am not correct in anything I've stated here, please feel free to correct me. It's important to get this right. Thanks.)

Burke said that he received a Nintendo 64 that Christmas. As I recall, the Nintendo 64 was THE most coveted gift by little boys for Christmas in 1996. Nintendo released the Nintendo 64 in North America in September, but it was was very hard to come by that Christmas.

Do you know if Burke received the Nintendo 64 on Christmas morning or if this was one of the packages found still wrapped in the basement on the 26th?

TIA!