Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[88mph]

Consider this;

The spot where CG was dumped was a little track coming off Pipidinny Rd. If he dumped JR with no thought to his next dump site then he's very fortunate to find a spot on that 180 degree line through the Conti where he could pull off a main road. Could be luck but also could mean he researched multiple dump sites in advance.

JR was virtually roadside.

With GC, he walked a significant way into the bush. It always perplexed me why he walked so far with GC, now we know - it was the 180 degree point.

 

[Bartholemeus]

JR was virtually roadside.

With GC, he walked a significant way into the bush. It always perplexed me why he walked so far with GC, now we know - it was the 180 degree point.

But he still could have dumped it road side (i.e. 5m into the bush). But he found a spot where there's a track that comes off Pipidinny Rd (assuming he did recon on his dump site prior).

What are the chances that he dumps JR with no foresight to future dump sites and finds a spot on that line that happens to have a nice little track off the road to drive into? My point is, did he determine both JR and CG dumpsites at the same time (i.e. prior to their murders)?

 

[Parkie]

The CSK had all the time he needed parked off that track off Pippidinny Rd. No one would see him. With JR he would be panicky that he might be seen.

 

[Parkie]

My point is, did he determine both JR and CG dumpsites at the same time (i.e. prior to their murders)?

Good point, very hard to say. I`d only be guessing what the go is.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Interesting article on DNA

Why DNA is not the holy grail

Whilst it is possible that police do have DNA, it is also possible that there may only be partial DNA (if any at all)

Remembering that all three girls were in multiple social settings, it's not hard to see how DNA may be transferred. This could obviously create quite a dilemma for LE and prosecutors alike.

Here is a case which outlines the negative outcomes of relying on partial DNA samples.

DNA test jailed innocent man for murder
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-19412819

 

[Peter Kurten]

Any more of those Post articles on Dropbox?

 

[hateyrgutsloveyrface]

Okay just rewatched the documentary again and one thing that really stood out to me was that the police officer said one of the victims (JR) was murdered the same night she was abducted. This was mentioned quite quietly/casually in the section of the documentary where they reveal the footage of the mystery man for the first time.

Honestly, I am thinking about taking a trip back to Perth just to look into this - trying to source 1996-1999 street directories of Perth so we can get a better feel for this. Hard to do without looking at this stuff in front of your face. Going to dig out my binder folder on the subject and compile a timeline on this.
One thing I don't think that interstate or international visitors to this particular forum thread will understand is that Perth is (and was) more like a big country town than a proper city. Especially during the 90s. Everybody knows everybody else. The fact is there is one or more people sitting on the identity of the serial killer. Friend of mine who was formerly incarcerated at Casurina Prison, W.A also has speculated to me that the CSK is currently behind bars for serial rape. I personally see this as conjecture. But worth taking into account too. Apparently this guy has bragged in prison about being responsible but there are no shortage of nutters who want to claim responsibility for Australia's biggest unsolved murder mystery.

I'm a second year Criminology student and have been doing some research into profiling of serial killers.
A few things mentioned in the documentary about the CSK's profile is that he is a male, caucausian and an organised serial killer.

Based on my experience in the criminology field and my research I believe that is possible to infer the following about CSK:

1. He's an Anglo Aussie male who would have been in his mid twenties to perhaps early forties at the time of the attacks. He would have appeared normal and/or trustworthy to these women.

2. As an organised serial killer, he is particularly adept at appearing for all intents and purposes 'normal', (this combined with LW's history of depression and mental illness rules him out to me, the guy seems anything but normal,)

3. Based on the fact that the police and peer reviewed research into serial murder in Australia refuses to mention the manner of death or the exact number of victims I think it is highly likely that the CSK is a sadist (that is, gets off on inflicting suffering on other human beings,) and would have prefered the intimacy of strangling or stabbing the women to death. This combined with the taunting call that was made to Don Spiers after Sarah's disappearance confirms (to me at least,) that he is a sadist.

4. Possible other victims in W.A include Julie CUTLER, Lisa Jane BROWN, and Sarah McMAHON

5. Due to the overwhelming evidence demonstrated to me through my research, it is highly unlikely that the CSK would have stopped so this leaves three possibilities a) he is currently deceased b) he is currently interstate/overseas or c) he is incarcerated for another crime.

I'm working on my own time line and stuff so I'll post what I come up with.

 

[88mph]

Okay just rewatched the documentary again and one thing that really stood out to me was that the police officer said one of the victims (JR) was murdered the same night she was abducted. This was mentioned quite quietly/casually in the section of the documentary where they reveal the footage of the mystery man for the first time.

Honestly, I am thinking about taking a trip back to Perth just to look into this - trying to source 1996-1999 street directories of Perth so we can get a better feel for this. Hard to do without looking at this stuff in front of your face. Going to dig out my binder folder on the subject and compile a timeline on this.
One thing I don't think that interstate or international visitors to this particular forum thread will understand is that Perth is (and was) more like a big country town than a proper city. Especially during the 90s. Everybody knows everybody else. The fact is there is one or more people sitting on the identity of the serial killer. Friend of mine who was formerly incarcerated at Casurina Prison, W.A also has speculated to me that the CSK is currently behind bars for serial rape. I personally see this as conjecture. But worth taking into account too. Apparently this guy has bragged in prison about being responsible but there are no shortage of nutters who want to claim responsibility for Australia's biggest unsolved murder mystery.

I'm a second year Criminology student and have been doing some research into profiling of serial killers.
A few things mentioned in the documentary about the CSK's profile is that he is a male, caucausian and an organised serial killer.

Based on my experience in the criminology field and my research I believe that is possible to infer the following about CSK:

1. He's an Anglo Aussie male who would have been in his mid twenties to perhaps early forties at the time of the attacks. He would have appeared normal and/or trustworthy to these women.

2. As an organised serial killer, he is particularly adept at appearing for all intents and purposes 'normal', (this combined with LW's history of depression and mental illness rules him out to me, the guy seems anything but normal,)

3. Based on the fact that the police and peer reviewed research into serial murder in Australia refuses to mention the manner of death or the exact number of victims I think it is highly likely that the CSK is a sadist (that is, gets off on inflicting suffering on other human beings,) and would have prefered the intimacy of strangling or stabbing the women to death. This combined with the taunting call that was made to Don Spiers after Sarah's disappearance confirms (to me at least,) that he is a sadist.

4. Possible other victims in W.A include Julie CUTLER, Lisa Jane BROWN, and Sarah McMAHON

5. Due to the overwhelming evidence demonstrated to me through my research, it is highly unlikely that the CSK would have stopped so this leaves three possibilities a) he is currently deceased b) he is currently interstate/overseas or c) he is incarcerated for another crime.

I'm working on my own time line and stuff so I'll post what I come up with.

Good stuff.

What's the profile on the prison suspect? Such as where did he live, age, other known rapes, occupation, cars he may have owned?

Would be good if you could flesh those or more.

Cheers

 

[Sutton]

Any more of those Post articles on Dropbox?

Here's the link to the DB folder:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9ntidqi1gayimy0/AABtQA-5pkhnDxq6J7YuW5Cua?dl=0

I uploaded these articles:

Flasher strikes near kindy
Cyclist fights off 'sex attacker'
Staying calm helped sex attack victim
Peeping tom alert in Subi
Police call for help to find woman's attacker

I don't see any strong connections, but who knows.

Here's LW's correct timeline in PDF form (corrected for Julie Cutler, no other changes):
View attachment Williams, Lance - Timeline.pdf

I don't know how people prefer to read articles, through Dropbox or PDF or some other way. PDFs aren't accessible in Tapatalk, and some people don't like DB, so I'm open to whatever. If anyone has a suggestion or preference, PM me.

Papertrail, are you still around? Your articles are best.

 

[Bartholemeus]

One thing I don't think that interstate or international visitors to this particular forum thread will understand is that Perth is (and was) more like a big country town than a proper city. Especially during the 90s.

I don't want to rub you up the wrong way but this just isn't true. The only people who would say that at the time are people visiting from bigger cities like Melbourne, Sydney or London.

The population back then was approximately 1.1m people. Bigger than nearly all US cities outside their top 10. Bigger that all UK cities outside their top 3. To suggest it had a country town feeling and everyone knew each other is absurd.

Typically around the Claremont nightlife scene, there is a bit of a everyone knows everyone feel. Despite claims to the contrary The Conti and CBV are the domain of the 6 private schools that service the area. No different to a biker bar in Rockingham - they attract a certain clientele.

The fact is there is one or more people sitting on the identity of the serial killer.

Let's not start calling guesses fact. Not only is it not a fact but it's highly unlikely. On one hand it's unlikely that someone with knowledge would not come forward on this one and on the other hand, given the perceived organisation of the CSK it's unlikely he would have told anyone.

Friend of mine who was formerly incarcerated at Casurina Prison, W.A also has speculated to me that the CSK is currently behind bars for serial rape. I personally see this as conjecture. But worth taking into account too. Apparently this guy has bragged in prison about being responsible but there are no shortage of nutters who want to claim responsibility for Australia's biggest unsolved murder mystery.

Macro would have gone through this with a fine tooth comb. Perhaps this is where "known sexual pervert" appeared from?

2. As an organised serial killer, he is particularly adept at appearing for all intents and purposes 'normal', (this combined with LW's history of depression and mental illness rules him out to me, the guy seems anything but normal,)

The only mental illness he has is depression. Typically undetectable to a stranger unless you're standing on top of a bridge ready to jump.

I've met him a number of times. He just came across as a loser with no mates. There was nothing abnormal about as you suggest. His eyes weren't rolling, his mouth wasn't frothing, he didn't have turret's. He was just a normal guy and the only thing stuc out about him was he didn't dress or look like an ex-private school boy.

3. Based on the fact that the police and peer reviewed research into serial murder in Australia refuses to mention the manner of death or the exact number of victims I think it is highly likely that the CSK is a sadist (that is, gets off on inflicting suffering on other human beings,) and would have prefered the intimacy of strangling or stabbing the women to death.

1. I doubt they know how many victims. They probably have a prioritised list and aren't sure which ones are CSK and which aren't
2. Evidence strongly suggests throats were cut and the CSK is not a sadist

This combined with the taunting call that was made to Don Spiers after Sarah's disappearance confirms (to me at least,) that he is a sadist.

You seem to be picking some unconfirmed theories and assuming they are fact whilst not others. Any reason why?

4. Possible other victims in W.A include Julie CUTLER, Lisa Jane BROWN, and Sarah McMAHON

SM is highly unlikely.

5. Due to the overwhelming evidence demonstrated to me through my research,

I'm not seeing it. At all.

I'm working on my own time line and stuff so I'll post what I come up with.

You're going to find if you assume unconfirmed theories as fact as your baseline, the further you extrapolate off this base, the further you get from the truth. I think you need to nail down what is fact and what isn't first and then work from there.

 

[Sutton]

...3. Based on the fact that the police and peer reviewed research into serial murder in Australia refuses to mention the manner of death or the exact number of victims I think it is highly likely that the CSK is a sadist (that is, gets off on inflicting suffering on other human beings,) and would have preferred the intimacy of strangling or stabbing the women to death. This combined with the taunting call that was made to Don Spiers after Sarah's disappearance confirms (to me at least,) that he is a sadist...

Hi. I'd be interested in hearing why you think the killer is a sadist. I think there's evidence that shows otherwise. Here's my argument:

1. The victims were killed shortly after they were picked up
2. The are no signs of torture (that we know of)--no mutilation, no flesh wounds, no elaborate bindings, the victims were not beaten repeatedly, etc.
3. Karrakatta said the killer was not very verbal, so he probably wasn't telling her horrific things
4. We don't know of any especially gruesome sex acts (all rape is gruesome), but no early reports said Jane may have had consensual sex
5. Most serial killers strangle or stab their victims (no statistics on that, just my opinion), but most serial killers aren't sadists.

I am intentionally omitting the call to Mr. Spiers. I have doubts if it was legit. Even if it was real, it may not have been done as a sadistic act. Some killers just want the credit.

Good ideas, but I'd love to hear some more support for a sadistic type killer.

 

[Frankie1972]

Number 4

 

[Frankie1972]

Who believes one or more of the following scenarios:

1. CSK stalked his victims in a vehicle and then approached them in the vehicle offering a lift? CSK unknown to victims.
2. CSK just happened to be driving past and offered his victims a lift? CSK unknown to victims
3. CSK met the girls during the night of their death and later offered them a lift?
4. CSK waited in certain locations for the girls to approach, then abducted them (blitz attack)?
5. CSK stalked his victims then somehow followed them in a vehicle then abducted them (blitz attack)?
6. CSK was a person of apparent trust, famous, taxi, police or other and offered the girls a lift?
7. CSK just randomly drove around between midnight and 2am offering lifts until he got a hit, no pre planning?

Please reply with the numbers of each scenario of if I haven't covered it, please enlighten me as to your own scenario.

Number 4

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Hi. I'd be interested in hearing why you think the killer is a sadist. I think there's evidence that shows otherwise. Here's my argument:

1. The victims were killed shortly after they were picked up
2. The are no signs of torture (that we know of)--no mutilation, no flesh wounds, no elaborate bindings, the victims were not beaten repeatedly, etc.
3. Karrakatta said the killer was not very verbal, so he probably wasn't telling her horrific things
4. We don't know of any especially gruesome sex acts (all rape is gruesome), but no early reports said Jane may have had consensual sex
5. Most serial killers strangle or stab their victims (no statistics on that, just my opinion), but most serial killers aren't sadists.

I am intentionally omitting the call to Mr. Spiers. I have doubts if it was legit. Even if it was real, it may not have been done as a sadistic act. Some killers just want the credit.

Good ideas, but I'd love to hear some more support for a sadistic type killer.

Good points there Sutton...but what about psychological torture? What if he just enjoyed inflicting terror?
That would have given him an enormous sense of power I'm sure!

 

[Sutton]

Good points there Sutton...but what about psychological torture? What if he just enjoyed inflicting terror?
That would have given him an enormous sense of power I'm sure!

Yes, of course. But I don't see any reason to believe he did that, especially considering Karrakatta says he didn't talk much. I really don't have a whole lot to base my opinion on. We know he got off on the power of the whole thing, but that's a far cry from sadism.

Anyone who commits this kind of crime has to have some sadistic tendencies.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Yes, of course. But I don't see any reason to believe he did that, especially considering Karrakatta says he didn't talk much. I really don't have a whole lot to base my opinion on. We know he got off on the power of the whole thing, but that's a far cry from sadism.

Anyone who commits this kind of crime has to have some sadistic tendencies.

Well I'll agree to disagree with you on that one.!

sadism
/ˈseɪdɪz(&#601m/
noun
noun: sadism
the tendency to derive pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.

 

[MyLeftFoot]

Re-the rape at Karrakatta
Obviously the perpetrator was confident his victim hadn't seen his face. Hadn't heard his voice...or seen his vehicle
That's probably what saved her IMO.

 

[hateyrgutsloveyrface]

Hi all, back again.
@88mph
Unfortunately, both of the people with whom I visited my friend in Casurina do not remember the name either. It's not exactly something you can ask over the phone to an inmate either (because that will definitely put the spotlight on them as a potential POI to anyone listening in on the conversation as is standard practice in gaol). What I do remember is that he was the approximate age of my friend (40s-50s) which would have made him in his 20s-30s at the time of the CSK. All I can remember specifically is that he was in prison for serial stranger rape. I am planning a trip back to W.A early next year so that I can research this further and get some more information from my friend.

@Bartholemus

"I don't want to rub you up the wrong way but this just isn't true. The only people who would say that at the time are people visiting from bigger cities like Melbourne, Sydney or London."

Actually, I was born and raised in Perth and lived there for the first 24 years of my life. I am speaking from lived experience and from academic peer reviewed research. I've just travelled a lot
On your second point re: sexual pervert in jail. That is a distinct possibility. As my friend is still currently incarcerated, I can not ask him over the phone.
Just curious, where is your source that the victims throat's were cut? I do not recall reading or hearing that anywhere.
Why do you think Sarah McMahon is unrelated? She looks similar to the other missing women and disappeared from her Claremont workplace. I think it is at least a possibility. I appreciate you taking the time to thoughtfully critique my argument, you gave me something to mull over last night

@Sutton
I am basing the idea that the CSK is a sadist based on peer-reviewed research into serial crime:

In a study of 494 known serial killers across the United States, almost two-thirds were motivated by the thrill of power or sexual sadism (Fox & Levin 2005).... profile of serial murder in
Australia is similar to the profile depicted by international research

Mouzos and West 2007, 'An examination of serial murder in Australia', Australian Institute of Criminology, no. 346
CSK is likely an organised, dedicated (that is apart from possibly rape/sexual assault and murder, doesn't habitually commit crime), power/control, sadist type killer.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Actually, I was born and raised in Perth and lived there for the first 24 years of my life. I am speaking from lived experience

Regardless of what you "lived through" there was 1.1m people in Perth at the time. Facts don't lie.

Why do you think Sarah McMahon is unrelated?

Because it's highly likely Donald Morey is the killer. He knew her. Police checked his and SM's phones on the night. They were talking to each other. Police also checked their locations from phone towers. Both DM and SM were heading towards Midland (where her car was found). DM has since been convicted of an attempted murder of a prostitute. Some else also testified then retracted that they saw DM at her home with the DB.

Seems you're a bit light on research for an alleged crime degree student.

 

[CSK?]

I'm not saying that the CSK is or is not a sadist as there is not enough evidence to support either opinion but In regards to him not talking much during the Karrakatta rape, this isn't a sign of not being a sadist, a lot of serial killers start out with simple rape, then rape and murder and then sadism slowly comes into play as they are no longer getting the same thrill as once derived from the act of murder, it is like a natural progression towards sadism for the purpose of gratification. of course this doesn't apply to all killers, some are happy just killing, others are sadists from the get go, but in regards to the CSK any speculation that he is or is not a sadist based from what we know is nothing but a matter of personal opinion.

Also as for the Karrakatta victim surviving I personally don't think this was due to her not seeing or hearing the rapist due to concealing himself but rather either of 2 theories, one being he had simply not progressed from sexual assault to murder at that stage or secondly he was pretty sure she would die and not finishing her off was as an error (I believe this because I recall reading she was "left for dead")