Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Charliegirl610]

That's not abnormal for little boys, they all pee outside, but why would the detectives even be asking this question unless there was a reason for it?

My guess is to see if she would be truthful. Perhaps there was more to that story? Like her simple explanation for BR hitting JBR in the face with the golf club accidentally on an upswing. Judith Phillips stated that PR told her BR hit JBR because he was mad at her. Edited to add: I believe it was during Susan Savage's employment that Patsy was going through her chemo and isolated from the family. This would have been a difficult time for the family/kids and maybe this is when aggression or behaviors started. Just a thought.

 

[ElleElle]

Why would the parents upon finding an unconscious child with no apparent head wound in the middle of the night.....then leap to "oh hey lets stage a murder". I just don't see that.

If you found ur child out if bed and passed out downstairs, why would anyone then feel the need to go through all that trouble to cover. No way, there's way more to the story then that in my opinion.

Yes, but if they are hiding something and/or protecting someone, then it would be why they are hiding it. IMO, there has been some form of abuse in the past and it's easier to say an "intruder" did it instead of someone within the household.

 

[invaderzim]

I agree. I think that if the parents came upon her body and believed that she was dead due to Burke's actions, the garrote and rope wouldn't have been pulled so tightly enough to in fact cause her death. Why would her hands have been so loosely tied above her head (enough to easily slip out of) and then they go ape crazy put all their effort and strength into strangling an already dead Jonbenet?

I think the best BDI scenario is that Burke placed the noose around her neck and tied to something else (doorknob?) It was elevated enough that the cord would go taught if she would have fallen. He molested her with the paintbrush handle and she screamed. In anger and/or fright he her hit her over the head (with the flashlight?) When he knocked her unconscious her body fell slack and she was (being) hanged. Burke didn't know what exactly her condition was, or what to do, and by the time he got the parents she was dead. This eliminates the problem of intentional strangulation by any family member as part of the staging. The staging, at that point, would mainly just involve the letter, tying the paintbrush handle to one end of the cord to make it look like an intruder had intentionally strangled her, and positioning the body in the other room.

 

[otg]

That's not abnormal for little boys, they all pee outside, but why would the detectives even be asking this question unless there was a reason for it?

They didn't ask Patsy about it until 18-months after the fact. By that time they had had plenty of time to speak with anyone and everyone who had ever even known the Ramseys. By that time, I think they were beginning to get a picture. Their former nanny told them the story about the boys with their pants down behind the house. We don't know exactly what she saw or what her version of it was. All we know is that the detectives asked Patsy about the boys being "without their clothes on or something," and Patsy's answer minimized it as "Evan (teaching) Burke that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to take the time to go inside to go pee-pee." Really? Blame it on Evan. Right?

Here's the transcript (http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9945-Patsy-Ramsey-BDA-interview-June-23-1998):

7 TRIP DeMUTH: A couple of questions
8 Tom. With Evan Colby, was there ever a time
9 when Burke and Evan were under the porch without
10 their clothes on something, like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you tell me about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think
15 Cynthia Savage, my housekeeper-nanny, told me
16 about that one time. They were, there isn't a
17 porch to be under, but I think Evan taught Burke
18 that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to
19 take the time to go inside to go pee-pee, so he
20 sort of taught him how to go behind the tree.
21 Evan is a little guy.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How little is little
23 Evan?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I want to say
25 Burke was probably six or seven, Evan was 7 or
0120
1 8, or something like that. And Suzanne told me
2 she came out and saw -- I think she said they
3 were kind of by where we kept this trash can,
4 sort on the left side of the garage and Evan had
5 his pants down showing Burke his -- works.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: Would Burke also have
7 his pants down or not?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think
9 I heard that.
​

BTW, Evan Colby (Koby?) is the neighbor boy who John saw looking up JonBenet's dress when she had no panties on:

12 That's probably right. Evan was a
13 strange little kid. He was --
14 LOU SMIT:
15 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I just didn't care
17 for him. He was, one time JonBenet was out in
18 the driveway and she had a -- this was several
19 years ago, she had a dress on that didn't have
20 underwear on because it gotten taken off or what
21 and Evan was down, you know, trying to look
22 under her dress and here he was probably at that
23 time a 7 or 8-year-old. I said Evan, cut that
24 out.
​

They asked a lot of questions of both Ramseys about the neighborhood boys. I suspect they had reasons that we're not aware of to ask all these questions. I'll leave it to each individual to speculate why without offering my own opinion.

On second thought, I will offer this: I think in Atlanta, Patsy should have asked Priscilla what she knew instead of pretending she was blind to what had been going on.

 

[questfortrue]

One of the only aspects of the case that I've had trouble figuring out is who strangled JBR with the cord. I've never really had a solid theory on it, other than it had to have been one of the three Rs. If BR did this part, did he wear gloves? To my knowledge, his DNA is not on the cord, yet PR's sweater fibers are. Any thoughts?

Me too, OliviaG1996. You’ll probably be sorry you posed the question , but here are a few summarized thoughts.

As you and others likely recall, Kolar believes BR did both the head blow and asphyxiation. It was therefore interesting that Clemente took a different stance in his interview on NBC.

Point – Kolar saw all the evidence from the GJ (including BR's taped interviews) and may have read the psychological profile of BR contained within the testimony of friends and BR’s teacher, believing the simplest explanation is that BR meant to kill her, perhaps even having planned it. After seeing BR’s interview, I, too, can now understand why Kolar believes BR did it all. (BR should never do another interview.)

Counterpoint – In Clemente’s interview on NBC he claims the parents placed a ligature on her, believing she was deceased. The goal was to try to save their remaining family. The fibers from Patsy’s jacket were found inside the knot and JR’s fibers inside the crotch of her panties, which became stained with blood drops. Plus, someone wore gloves in attaching the paintbrush to the ligature. BR would not likely have worn gloves.

Point – BR could have used something else to asphyxiate her. (A scarf?) We also can’t discount the self-strangulation concept (unless there was a significant amount of time between the head blow and strangulation as per Rorke. {Poster Otg has some sound medical reasons to discount that time frame.)

Counterpoint from JR’s interview in ‘98 with a Delmar England commentary:

LS: ...Just a couple of questions, and these are just miscellaneous questions that I had. In what area of the house do you think that JonBenet received the injuries to her head? That is just from your own....
JR: Well, I guess my impression is that it was in the basement. But that's just purely an assumption. We didn't hear a thing. I think if she had cried out or - you know, we would have heard that. I didn't know she had any head injury at all. It wasn't - I just didn't see....
LS: You had no knowledge?
JR: I don't know. I just, that's something that's been difficult for me to think about it, is what exactly happened.
LS: And where?
JR: And where.
LS: Do you think that the head injury occurred at the same place as the other injuries, say, with the ligature?
JR: I mean, its just no reason to - to know that. I mean, I guess - well, like I say, I just - that's very difficult to think about and imagine, but I wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her and after that they strangled her.

JR is speculating on whether the head injury came first, then strangulation? Of course, this potential doesn't go along with Smit's theory and could really mess it up. Smit want's nothing to do with this idea. He blocks this avenue of inquiry quickly and emphatically:

LS: All right. This is getting way off of that. Do you know who brought JAR to the airport, when he left for Atlanta?

Unlike Mr. Smit, I am very interested in the head injury and strangulation thing and really interested in JR's comments on it. To put things in perspective and see where I'm coming from and why, let's back up a bit and take it from there.

Prior to March, 2000, all I heard or knew about the Ramsey case were occasional sound bites from newscasts. During the Barbara Walters interview in March of 2000, JR said that the autopsy report said that JonBenet died from strangulation. He expressed no doubt then, nor later that I know of. Death by strangulation was the persistent story put out by JR, Smit and others.

However, in reading the NE Police Files, I came across this (from the LS and JR interview in 1998):

JR: "I mean, there's just no reason to - to know that. I mean, I guess - well, like I say - I just, that's very difficult to think about and imagine, but I wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her and after that they strangled her."

Everything that moves leaves tracks. Believe it or not, this applies to thought as well as the physical. No thought exists in isolation. It is always connected to antecedent thoughts. A competent "mind tracker" can usually follow a given thought back to its source and motivation.

I won't take the time to validate by explaining the natural laws of mind operation, but demonstrate sufficiently to provide some insight into John's statement.

In Smit's theory of an intruder, with which John is usually in agreement, JonBenet is "controlled" by the "garrote", then strangled. The blow to the head is the last thing the intruder does according to Smit.

If JonBenet was being "controlled" by the "garrote" in some sexual happening as Smit declares, she was very much alive when she was strangled. If you interject the conclusion that she was dead from the head trauma before the cord was put around her neck, Smit's pedophile intruder story falls apart.

In the foregoing quote, John says you can't know. He speculates that maybe she was dead when the cord was put around her neck. Why would John introduce this thought and speculation which undermines the story of an intruder, hence, jeopardizes the basis for his claim of innocence?

Although it is the basis for the pedophile intruder story and his claim of innocence, for some reason John is uncomfortable with the conclusion that JonBenet was strangled to death. The fact that he utters the forgoing quote casting doubt on the pedophile intruder story, tells there is a very strong emotional motivation for the speculation that maybe JonBenet was dead when she was strangled. Indeed, we can take it a step further.

If he were comfortable with the idea of strangulation first, he would not question it and cast doubt on his defense. This tells me, even if not you, John DESIRES the conclusion that JonBenet was dead from the head trauma before she was strangled. Why?

The intensity of the concern is revealed by the utterance itself which sought assurance that she was dead before strangulation. This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that death by head trauma is precisely what they sought to hide, but John sought to establish as fact in direct contradiction. There had to be a very personal and very intense reason for this.
______________

In conclusion, I still don’t have a firm conclusion. BR will always be reasonable doubt even if he was not responsible for the asphyxiation. jmho.

 

[BBB167893]

To do all what? It was stated that the object that would have caused damage to her hymen would have been the size of a child's finger.....so I said could it have been her own?

I have worked with a little 4 year old who masturbated aggressively both with her own finger and with objects like pens and pencils. She was not abused, she had not been shown innapropriate material, thus behaviors had started in infancy and were do to her Sensory Processing disorder. Masturbating basically became her way to cope with stress and anxiety.

I take your point about the little girl. But it wasn't just her hymen. There was a spot that had been repeatedly rubbed to the point the tissue had eroded. Even if JB was touching herself, she'd know what was good and what was painful.

 

[treeseeker]

Although there was much weirdness over the pineapple, I am wondering if BR took the flashlight to the basement to sneak a peek at his birthday gifts, JB followed and threatened to tell. BR took a swing with the flashlight, and hit her on the head. Unless BR had seen movies with scenes about garrotes, I just don't know that he could have pulled that out of nowhere. I don't think it would have occurred to a young boy to change her clothing or clean her. I'm not totally convinced he was responsible.

 

[Madge_Ick_Dike]

I take your point about the little girl. But it wasn't just her hymen. There was a spot that had been repeatedly rubbed to the point the tissue had eroded. Even if JB was touching herself, she'd know what was good and what was painful.

I am sure i read somewhere that Patsy had confided in someone that she had been douching JonBenét. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Corporal Punishment via cleaning - so not necessarily sexual gratifying but definitely still sexual abuse.

 

[akh]

Unless BR had seen movies with scenes about garrotes, I just don't know that he could have pulled that out of nowhere. I don't think it would have occurred to a young boy to change her clothing or clean her. I'm not totally convinced he was responsible.

On the first point, the photos of it do not look that elaborate and certainly not beyond a 9 year old's work. Even if you believe he couldn't devise it on his own, he certainly could've seen something similar on TV/movies.

For the 2nd point, I don't think anyone is saying he (BR) did clean her up or change her clothes. That is when the parents (at least one of them) comes into the picture and the coverup begins in order to protect BR. In fact, my theory is the parents cleaning her up and dressing her was to hide any potential signs of SA and to try and make it look more like a kidnapping gone wrong and less like a sexual crime to deflect eyes from what BR had done. But it didn't slip by the investigators and so it ended up just another piece of the puzzle with everyone trying to figure out an angle how it would fit with the IDI theory. Or how/why it fits into the RDI theories.

But it makes sense to me to think BR created a horrific scene, past the point where the parents could try and play it off as an accident, and so parents sought to clean it up and try and create a misdirect for investigators in order to take eyes away from BR.

 

[BBB167893]

I am sure i read somewhere that Patsy had confided in someone that she had been douching JonBenét. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Corporal Punishment via cleaning - so not necessarily sexual gratifying but definitely still sexual abuse.

I've heard that one, MID. But I've only ever heard that on forums as speculation. I've never seen where someone who knew her said that Patsy made that confidence. Even if she was crazy enough to do it, I'd need more before I could jump off that cliff.

 

[ThinkHard]

ThinkHard, I've liked and thanked many of your posts and I appreciate what you bring to the table, so it is truly with all due respect that I say this: it's not your place to suggest what people can and cannot post. If you'd like for your fellow posters to weigh your words as those of an expert, I strongly recommend you have your credentials verified. Until then, regardless of your experience, you're a poster here like the rest of us.

I respect your opinions but I do think you may be overestimating the likelihood of JBR being a chronic aggressive masturbator and understating the correlation between SBP and sexual abuse.

(Also, this may seem petty, but every time you misspell "masturbation" it undermines my confidence in your educated opinion on the subject. I've never seen anyone claim expertise in a subject they can't even spell.)

I think you are gravely misunderstanding why I said what I said and then turning and personally attacking me which I think is a bit unfair. For one I never called myself a professional nor have I ever claimed to be.

I'm not asking someone or telling someone that they can't have an opinion. Nor was I even suggesting that only a professional could have an opinion on it.

However one particular poster kept saying things that are not only innacurate but also potebtially damaging and that is of huge concern to me.

Do you know the number one reason parents with sexually aggressive children do not seek help early on because they are terrified others will believe their child's behavior is the result of sexual abuse and their child could be taken from them. It's true!

And who knows if Burkes parents might have had the same fears and delayed care and down played his behavior because of it.

It's damaging and dangerous to go around putting false information out there. Or to say what these kids are and aren't like if you haven't experienced it first hand.

Before I experienced first hand, I thought differently as well. And ONLY through first hand experience that I was truly able to grasp this illness more clearly.

So I said what I said to remind people to keep an open mind and not assume things are this or that if they don't really have a frame of reference to say.

Again I don't care about being right, that's not the point at all....but spreading misinformation such as that can be damaging, and I think we need to be careful in that regard.

Finally I don't really care that you decided to pick on my spelling, I think it's an unnacessary attack, but I will take it as an opportunity to educate you. I have aspergers. Which means I have splintering skills of intelligence. Grammar and spelling are hands down my weakest points, that doesn't mean I am not intelligent and it doesn't mean I am poorly educated. I have an undergrad degree and 2 graduate degrees one being from an Ivy League.

Again opinions are fine, but claiming you know what a child is or isn't like in a situation one has no experience in, is not ok. It's just not far to the children who have these issues.

 

[ThinkHard]

Per the CBS special, her breathing would have been almost undetectable, as she was dying/brain dead by that point. They probably never thought she was still alive.

That's beside the point I still don't think that theory makes much sense in my head. Even if they thought their daughter died in the middle of the night but don't know what happened to her.....they are calling an ambulance, not getting the crafty idea to stage a crime scene.

 

[ThinkHard]

It looks like there was at least some inappropriate exposure:
The following is taken from Patsy's 1998 interview at http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

7 TRIP DeMUTH: A couple of questions
8 Tom. With Evan Colby, was there ever a time
9 when Burke and Evan were under the porch without
10 their clothes on something, like that?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).
12 TRIP DeMUTH: Can you tell me about
13 that?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think
15 Cynthia Savage, my housekeeper-nanny, told me
16 about that one time. They were, there isn't a
17 porch to be under, but I think Evan taught Burke
18 that it was easier to go pee-pee outside than to
19 take the time to go inside to go pee-pee, so he
20 sort of taught him how to go behind the tree.
21 Evan is a little guy.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: How little is little
23 Evan?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I want to say
25 Burke was probably six or seven, Evan was 7 or
0120
1 8, or something like that. And Suzanne told me
2 she came out and saw -- I think she said they
3 were kind of by where we kept this trash can,
4 sort on the left side of the garage and Evan had
5 his pants down showing Burke his -- works.

I'm not sure I would consider, 2 6/7/8year old boys showing each other their penis's as innapropriate exposure. Perhaps there is more to the story or more incidents. But as a single incidents, I feel it's pretty common.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think the best BDI scenario is that Burke placed the noose around her neck and tied to something else (doorknob?) It was elevated enough that the cord would go taught if she would have fallen. He molested her with the paintbrush handle and she screamed. In anger and/or fright he her hit her over the head (with the flashlight?) When he knocked her unconscious her body fell slack and she was (being) hanged. Burke didn't know what exactly her condition was, or what to do, and by the time he got the parents she was dead. This eliminates the problem of intentional strangulation by any family member as part of the staging. The staging, at that point, would mainly just involve the letter, tying the paintbrush handle to one end of the cord to make it look like an intruder had intentionally strangled her, and positioning the body in the other room.

The problem with this theory is that there is zero chance you could have tied the paintbrush to that line after she was strangled with it. If you look at that knot it is very obvious this would have been nearly impossible. Plus her hair was tangled with this not, indicating the knot and paintbrush were already present when she was strangled.

 

[ThinkHard]

I take your point about the little girl. But it wasn't just her hymen. There was a spot that had been repeatedly rubbed to the point the tissue had eroded. Even if JB was touching herself, she'd know what was good and what was painful.

We obviously can't say what JB did or didn't do.

But what I can tell you is that children who do have sensory processing and dysfunction issues and resort to masturbating do not know the difference btw good touch and bad touch and will in fact continue with such behavior even when it is hurting them because they are being too aggressive with their own body.

Another example of not knowing their limits or feeling pain is when you see sensory seekers who bang their head against a wall or the floor and if you don't stop them or redirect it to something softer, they will continue even when they have given themself a rug burn and are bleeding.

 

[ThinkHard]

I am sure i read somewhere that Patsy had confided in someone that she had been douching JonBenét. Anyone know what I'm talking about? Corporal Punishment via cleaning - so not necessarily sexual gratifying but definitely still sexual abuse.

Even if thus is true, how can we know that PR used it as a form of punishments?

 

[Heymom]

. After seeing BR’s interview, I, too, can now understand why Kolar believes BR did it all. (BR should never do another interview.)

.

Severely snipped to highlight this one thought: I think he should continue with his interviews! The more, the merrier! Next time he could end up completely incriminating himself! Go Burke Go!

 

[Heymom]

We obviously can't say what JB did or didn't do.

But what I can tell you is that children who do have sensory processing and dysfunction issues and resort to masturbating do not know the difference btw good touch and bad touch and will in fact continue with such behavior even when it is hurting them because they are being too aggressive with their own body.

Another example of not knowing their limits or feeling pain is when you see sensory seekers who bang their head against a wall or the floor and if you don't stop them or redirect it to something softer, they will continue even when they have given themself a rug burn and are bleeding.

Are you actually positing that JonBenet had sensory processing issues?? Come on now. Burke was largely viewed as normal, and JonBenet was nothing but normal. You're spreading your own experience & knowledge into areas where it doesn't apply.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I'm not sure I would consider, 2 6/7/8year old boys showing each other their penis's as innapropriate exposure. Perhaps there is more to the story or more incidents. But as a single incidents, I feel it's pretty common.

It's normal behavior. But one does have to wonder what the truth is here and why this question was asked. Patsy was very good at manipulating the truth. And of course, it was all the other boy's fault.

 

[mrseeker]

I don't know why anyone would claim JBR had some kind of disorder. That is just made up. No evidence of that. Even a qualified professional would not make such claims with the scant evidence available. A little "knowledge" can be dangerous. I don't think projecting our on lives into this is helpful to the mystery.

Clearly this poor girl was either accidentally killed or murdered by one of three people. The argument over chronic sexual abuse or just one incident at the time of death can't even be decided by pathologists. I have struggled over the staging of the body. Why would a mother desecrate the body like this? I wonder if there were wounds on the neck area that the garrote covered up. I do not think BR garroted his sister. Maybe he did, but it seems beyond a 9 year old. I agree with others though, BR's interview has done him no favors. He seems a bit odd and makes thinking he could have done this much easier to believe. IF PR came upon an unconscious JBR I would think she would cry out for John and they would call 911. Even if they knew BR had done something, why would you go into cover up mode right away. That is what made me think PR caused the head injury, and realized she would be charged. So she cared for JBR until her vital signs had become so weak she just assumed she was dead. At that point she staged the body as a sexual predator, and planned to dump the body if she could get JR to leave the house in the AM for the bank. That has been my theory since 1997. But now with this BR interview, I have to say, I am not so sure.