The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[flourish]

I have a stupid question, other than the photographer who was on the CBS special why are all the friends and neighbors still so unwilling to talk about this case ? Are they afraid of lawsuits? I would guess any and all statutes of limitations except murder have long run out so surely no one can claim they are afraid of being prosecuted?

Prosecuted perhaps not, persecuted, well that's a valid fear for them to have, I'd say.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think Burke using the word psycho is remarkable. I think it's a term used by kids to be cool and add humour to describing a parent's frantic behaviour.

Patsy's behaviour/act leads me to believe she wouldn't have done that for his benefit if he already knew what had happened that night.

 

[Heymom]

I don't think Burke using the word psycho is remarkable. I think it's a term used by kids to be cool and add humour to describing a parent's frantic behaviour.

Patsy's behaviour/act leads me to believe she wouldn't have done that for his benefit if he already knew what had happened that night.

You're assuming that even happened. That's the narrative that Burke was in bed the whole time. I don't buy it.

 

[Tortoise]

You're assuming that even happened. That's the narrative that Burke was in bed the whole time. I don't buy it.

I think he was in bed that morning, before the 911 call. He had a description of her behaviour and 'psycho' didn't seem to be an embellishment.

 

[Heymom]

I think he was in bed that morning, before the 911 call. He had a description of her behaviour and 'psycho' didn't seem to be an embellishment.

That could have happened much earlier in the previous night, I suppose. Since I believe they found her obviously dead body before midnight, I suppose that could have been what happened when Burke had gone to bed and Patsy went to check on JonBenet and couldn't find her, before midnight. In any case, his description of his mother's panic, if that is what he really observed, is indeed pretty sociopathic.

 

[Ashleyh613]

I never said anything about him have antisocial personality disorder. I, like you, pointed out what psychiatrists do, and wondered why he was seeing one.

 

[otg]

That could have happened much earlier in the previous night, I suppose. Since I believe they found her obviously dead body before midnight, I suppose that could have been what happened when Burke had gone to bed and Patsy went to check on JonBenet and couldn't find her, before midnight. In any case, his description of his mother's panic, if that is what he really observed, is indeed pretty sociopathic.

BINGO! I think you hit on it, Heymom. When making up a story, people tend to incorporate things that actually happened into their story. Everyone does (not that I would know anything about making up stories :blushing. I think the reason is that the person thinks that if some of what happened can be verified or is known, that will add credence to the rest of the story.

Consider this scenario:

Burke causes JonBenet to scream, panics, hits her over the head to shut her up, and then (like kids that age might do), he doesn't know what to do to make it all go away. So the best thing is to simply run away so as not to be caught near what happened. Then they can deny any knowledge of what happened. "Who, me? I wasn't even there. I don't know what happened. I was here in my room sleeping."

Patsy, still up and packing for the next morning's trip, hears JonBenet scream. She goes down the stairway to the second floor, looks in her room, and doesn't see her. She looks in Burke's room, where she said she often goes in the middle of the night, and doesn't see her there. Now she panics and "goes psycho," as related by Burke.

"Where's my baby, where's my baby?"

(IMO, Burke may very well have been telling us something he does remember from that night.)

 

[Ashleyh613]

The only reason you go to a psychiatrist over a psychologist is if you need medication. Period.

It could be anything though, from ADHD, to Bipolar, to anxiety, to depression etc.....it doesn't mean it was neccasarily something as severe as antisocial personality disorder.

That's why I pointed out the difference. I didn't say anything about him having an antisocial personality disorder, I just thought it was very interesting.

 

[Tortoise]

I was just looking at the wording of the indictment and I have a query.

"..did..render assistance to a person...knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death."

additional wording deleted for the purposes of my query.

As Burke was too young to be held criminally liable for the crime of murder, if he killed JonBenet can his crime be described as murder? Would it not be something that he would be found guilty of, I don't know the different charges that can be brought in the US, but for instance if it was say manslaughter by diminished responsibility, would the indictment not have read as follows -

"..did..render assistance to a person...knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of manslaughter by diminished responsibility and child abuse resulting in death."

Plus would a child be accused of child abuse, that description alone sounds to be as if it can only be committed by an adult? A 9 year old child acting on another child wouldn't be viewed in relation to the victim in the same perspective as an adult committing the crime. So I suppose I'm talking about intent here.

 

[Heymom]

BINGO! I think you hit on it, Heymom. When making up a story, people tend to incorporate things that actually happened into their story. Everyone does (not that I would know anything about making up stories :blushing. I think the reason is that the person thinks that if some of what happened can be verified or is known, that will add credence to the rest of the story.

Consider this scenario:

Burke causes JonBenet to scream, panics, hits her over the head to shut her up, and then (like kids that age might do), he doesn't know what to do to make it all go away. So the best thing is to simply run away so as not to be caught near what happened. Then they can deny any knowledge of what happened. "Who, me? I wasn't even there. I don't know what happened. I was here in my room sleeping."

Patsy, still up and packing for the next morning's trip, hears JonBenet scream. She goes down the stairway to the second floor, looks in her room, and doesn't see her. She looks in Burke's room, where she said she often goes in the middle of the night, and doesn't see her there. Now she panics and "goes psycho," as related by Burke.

"Where's my baby, where's my baby?"

(IMO, Burke may very well have been telling us something he does remember from that night.)

Except I don't think BR went right upstairs after his sister dropped onto the floor unconscious. I think he had quite a bit of playtime with her afterward, and enjoyed himself doing things that he'd wanted to do but that she would have resisted. All of this happened before midnight though.

 

[Ashleyh613]

BINGO! I think you hit on it, Heymom. When making up a story, people tend to incorporate things that actually happened into their story. Everyone does (not that I would know anything about making up stories :blushing. I think the reason is that the person thinks that if some of what happened can be verified or is known, that will add credence to the rest of the story.

Consider this scenario:

Burke causes JonBenet to scream, panics, hits her over the head to shut her up, and then (like kids that age might do), he doesn't know what to do to make it all go away. So the best thing is to simply run away so as not to be caught near what happened. Then they can deny any knowledge of what happened. "Who, me? I wasn't even there. I don't know what happened. I was here in my room sleeping."

Patsy, still up and packing for the next morning's trip, hears JonBenet scream. She goes down the stairway to the second floor, looks in her room, and doesn't see her. She looks in Burke's room, where she said she often goes in the middle of the night, and doesn't see her there. Now she panics and "goes psycho," as related by Burke.

"Where's my baby, where's my baby?"

(IMO, Burke may very well have been telling us something he does remember from that night.)

Reminded me of an incident when I was little. I was 4 my brother was 7 and we were playing in the backyard. He was practicing t-ball and I walked into his backswing. Total accident, totally my fault but I was knocked out cold. My mom said my brother came running in the house saying "I didn't do it". He was scared of getting in trouble and my mom looked out and saw me lying in the yard. She ran out and carried me in and immediately we went to the hospital.

 

[Heymom]

Reminded me of an incident when I was little. I was 4 my brother was 7 and we were playing in the backyard. He was practicing t-ball and I walked into his backswing. Total accident, totally my fault but I was knocked out cold. My mom said my brother came running in the house saying "I didn't do it". He was scared of getting in trouble and my mom looked out and saw me lying in the yard. She ran out and carried me in and immediately we went to the hospital.

Maybe by the time JonBenet was killed, BR no longer had much fear of getting in trouble. Maybe he'd done quite a few things to her over time and had never gotten in trouble, even if he cared at first (we don't know if he ever did care). Maybe that's where his seemingly detached and somewhat mocking attitude came from.

 

[otg]

Except I don't think BR went right upstairs after his sister dropped onto the floor unconscious. I think he had quite a bit of playtime with her afterward, and enjoyed himself doing things that he'd wanted to do but that she would have resisted. All of this happened before midnight though.

Just so I understand... So you think the molestation was done after she was unconscious?

 

[ThinkHard]

I never said anything about him have antisocial personality disorder. I, like you, pointed out what psychiatrists do, and wondered why he was seeing one.

I didn't mean to imply you had. I was just adding on to what you said. Saying I was in agreement, and adding that it could be something as common as ADHD or as serious as ASPD.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Just so I understand... So you think the molestation was done after she was unconscious?

I do.


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[Heymom]

Just so I understand... So you think the molestation was done after she was unconscious?

Absolutely. As well as the choking, the train tracks, and the burn or whatever on her cheek.

 

[Ashleyh613]

The only reason you go to a psychiatrist over a psychologist is if you need medication. Period.

It could be anything though, from ADHD, to Bipolar, to anxiety, to depression etc.....it doesn't mean it was neccasarily something as severe as antisocial personality disorder.

I didn't mean to imply you had. I was just adding on to what you said. Saying I was in agreement, and adding that it could be something as common as ADHD or as serious as ASPD.

Sorry lol. If I were representing Burke and he really did have a diagnosis such as ASP or ADHD that would maybe explain some of his odd behavior/responses as his attorney I would absolutely be putting it out there to the media. I mean Burke and his attorneys have known for along time people found his responses to the interviews and actually events as odd. I mean **** what are they paying these guys for?

 

[ThinkHard]

Sorry lol. If I were representing Burke and he really did have a diagnosis such as ASP or ADHD that would maybe explain some of his odd behavior/responses as his attorney I would absolutely be putting it out there to the media. I mean Burke and his attorneys have known for along time people found his responses to the interviews and actually events as odd. I mean **** what are they paying these guys for?

I agree. Unless he doesn't have any of those more "acceptable" things to have, like ASD and ADHD.....but rather something that would be closer to a psychosis and therefor more incriminating.

 

[dizzychick]

another stupid question I have, at the outset of this case I believe I read the ransom letter had quotes or close to them from a book found in the home that Patsy was reading. Now all they say is the note had remarks similar to several movies. Does anyone remember if there really was a book she was reading or was this mis information???

 

[otg]

(WARNING: Graphic photos included within this post.)

Posted by cynic on the first part of this thread which is now closed (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...et-Ramsey-CBS-Sept-18&p=12814762#post12814762):

I said it during the chat and I’ll say it again here. Spitz is wrong about the Maglite and he did nothing to prove that the pattern injury on the skull of JonBenet was caused anything with that shape.
I’ve taken a Maglite (although you can use any flashlight with that shape) and pressed it into modelling clay and a Styrofoam sphere. The result is always the same – a half of an ellipse.
I would encourage anyone to try it. It’s not as if this would be the first time that Spitz was wrong.

Spitz has done so much to mislead investigators and those of us who follow the case. From another of cynic’s posts, the following is an artist’s rendering of what Spitz said he had someone draw for him:

But this sketch does NOT match the actual depressed fracture that can be seen on one of the autopsy photos. Dr. Meyer’s use of the phrase “roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull” to describe the “hole” was inaccurate, but it probably looked like that at the time he first peeled back the scalp. But not having first-hand knowledge of the actual shape of the hole, Spitz had a drawing made showing an almost exact rectangle representing it. Even if a perfect rectangle were correct, as cynic points out from his own experiments and as an understanding of the geometry of all this would suggest, the end of a Maglite doesn’t “fit perfectly” as Spitz so often repeats.

During the segment on this in the CBS documentary, they also showed another sketch which more accurately depicts the actual fractures. They showed it without giving an explanation or telling us where it came from. But it appears to be another artist’s rendering of the actual autopsy photo that was released by Smit (even down to the coroner’s label that was in the photo showing below the skull). I screen capped that sketch:

Notice that this sketch is apparently made from the photo and not something concocted in Spitz’s imagination.

What I can tell by this photo and the representing sketch above it is the same thing I had posted a few years ago here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ll-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=8660364#post8660364).

The line you see going vertically across the “hole” is where the ME made the coronal incision to reflect the scalp. There remains on the back part of the skull the thin membrane that lies between the skull and the scalp: the pericranium. It is bruised in the area of the impact from the weapon, but you can still partially see through that semi-transparent membrane where the actual depressed fracture is. It is not rectangular, it is elliptical. In fact, I can use my drawing software to draw over it a perfect ellipse:

If you look at the above post, you’ll see that if the linear fracture is pushed together, it fits even more perfectly with the ellipse I drew over the actual depressed fracture:

The problem with all this is that if Spitz starts off with the wrong information (shape of the depressed fracture), how could he possibly match it to the weapon used? That’s why I hate seeing so many accept his idea that the Maglite was used to cause the head wound. It wasn’t.