The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

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(WARNING: Graphic photos included within this post.)


Posted by cynic on the first part of this thread which is now closed (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...et-Ramsey-CBS-Sept-18&p=12814762#post12814762):





Spitz has done so much to mislead investigators and those of us who follow the case. From another of cynic’s posts, the following is an artist’s rendering of what Spitz said he had someone draw for him:

attachment.php



But this sketch does NOT match the actual depressed fracture that can be seen on one of the autopsy photos. Dr. Meyer’s use of the phrase “roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull” to describe the “hole” was inaccurate, but it probably looked like that at the time he first peeled back the scalp. But not having first-hand knowledge of the actual shape of the hole, Spitz had a drawing made showing an almost exact rectangle representing it. Even if a perfect rectangle were correct, as cynic points out from his own experiments and as an understanding of the geometry of all this would suggest, the end of a Maglite doesn’t “fit perfectly” as Spitz so often repeats.

During the segment on this in the CBS documentary, they also showed another sketch which more accurately depicts the actual fractures. They showed it without giving an explanation or telling us where it came from. But it appears to be another artist’s rendering of the actual autopsy photo that was released by Smit (even down to the coroner’s label that was in the photo showing below the skull). I screen capped that sketch:

attachment.php




Notice that this sketch is apparently made from the photo and not something concocted in Spitz’s imagination.
attachment.php


What I can tell by this photo and the representing sketch above it is the same thing I had posted a few years ago here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ll-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=8660364#post8660364).

The line you see going vertically across the “hole” is where the ME made the coronal incision to reflect the scalp. There remains on the back part of the skull the thin membrane that lies between the skull and the scalp: the pericranium. It is bruised in the area of the impact from the weapon, but you can still partially see through that semi-transparent membrane where the actual depressed fracture is. It is not rectangular, it is elliptical. In fact, I can use my drawing software to draw over it a perfect ellipse:

attachment.php



If you look at the above post, you’ll see that if the linear fracture is pushed together, it fits even more perfectly with the ellipse I drew over the actual depressed fracture:

attachment.php




The problem with all this is that if Spitz starts off with the wrong information (shape of the depressed fracture), how could he possibly match it to the weapon used? That’s why I hate seeing so many accept his idea that the Maglite was used to cause the head wound. It wasn’t.

I have to think that Chief Kolar allowed this misinformation to be shown so as not to compromise the *actual* evidence. Otherwise, I was thoroughly confused and concerned that Spitz was allowed to push his pet theory about the Maglite. IF the general public doesn't know anything about the case, the autopsy, etc. then they will believe this hook, line, and sinker, and it just isn't true.
 
I have to think that Chief Kolar allowed this misinformation to be shown so as not to compromise the *actual* evidence. Otherwise, I was thoroughly confused and concerned that Spitz was allowed to push his pet theory about the Maglite. IF the general public doesn't know anything about the case, the autopsy, etc. then they will believe this hook, line, and sinker, and it just isn't true.

Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. Can you think of any object that would leave such a perfect punch out? Some type of specialized hammer end perhaps? A putter? A wood? Any object you've seen in crime scene photos of anything in the house?




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What did her brain look like at autopsy? Any photos?


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(WARNING: Graphic photos included within this post.)


Posted by cynic on the first part of this thread which is now closed (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...et-Ramsey-CBS-Sept-18&p=12814762#post12814762):





Spitz has done so much to mislead investigators and those of us who follow the case. From another of cynic’s posts, the following is an artist’s rendering of what Spitz said he had someone draw for him:

attachment.php



But this sketch does NOT match the actual depressed fracture that can be seen on one of the autopsy photos. Dr. Meyer’s use of the phrase “roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull” to describe the “hole” was inaccurate, but it probably looked like that at the time he first peeled back the scalp. But not having first-hand knowledge of the actual shape of the hole, Spitz had a drawing made showing an almost exact rectangle representing it. Even if a perfect rectangle were correct, as cynic points out from his own experiments and as an understanding of the geometry of all this would suggest, the end of a Maglite doesn’t “fit perfectly” as Spitz so often repeats.

During the segment on this in the CBS documentary, they also showed another sketch which more accurately depicts the actual fractures. They showed it without giving an explanation or telling us where it came from. But it appears to be another artist’s rendering of the actual autopsy photo that was released by Smit (even down to the coroner’s label that was in the photo showing below the skull). I screen capped that sketch:

attachment.php




Notice that this sketch is apparently made from the photo and not something concocted in Spitz’s imagination.
attachment.php


What I can tell by this photo and the representing sketch above it is the same thing I had posted a few years ago here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ll-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=8660364#post8660364).

The line you see going vertically across the “hole” is where the ME made the coronal incision to reflect the scalp. There remains on the back part of the skull the thin membrane that lies between the skull and the scalp: the pericranium. It is bruised in the area of the impact from the weapon, but you can still partially see through that semi-transparent membrane where the actual depressed fracture is. It is not rectangular, it is elliptical. In fact, I can use my drawing software to draw over it a perfect ellipse:

attachment.php



If you look at the above post, you’ll see that if the linear fracture is pushed together, it fits even more perfectly with the ellipse I drew over the actual depressed fracture:

attachment.php




The problem with all this is that if Spitz starts off with the wrong information (shape of the depressed fracture), how could he possibly match it to the weapon used? That’s why I hate seeing so many accept his idea that the Maglite was used to cause the head wound. It wasn’t.

What are you thinking? Something like maybe a golf club sideways? Like a putter or a ptching wedge?
 
Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. Can you think of any object that would leave such a perfect punch out? Some type of specialized hammer end perhaps? A putter? A wood? Any object you've seen in crime scene photos of anything in the house?




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Seems like cynic and otg did lots of experiments and posted them on FFJ. There was one particular object that resulted in a more oval-shaped hole, but I can't remember what it was at the moment. Otg, do you remember?
 

(WARNING: Graphic photos included within this post.)


Posted by cynic on the first part of this thread which is now closed (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...et-Ramsey-CBS-Sept-18&p=12814762#post12814762):





Spitz has done so much to mislead investigators and those of us who follow the case. From another of cynic’s posts, the following is an artist’s rendering of what Spitz said he had someone draw for him:

attachment.php



But this sketch does NOT match the actual depressed fracture that can be seen on one of the autopsy photos. Dr. Meyer’s use of the phrase “roughly rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull” to describe the “hole” was inaccurate, but it probably looked like that at the time he first peeled back the scalp. But not having first-hand knowledge of the actual shape of the hole, Spitz had a drawing made showing an almost exact rectangle representing it. Even if a perfect rectangle were correct, as cynic points out from his own experiments and as an understanding of the geometry of all this would suggest, the end of a Maglite doesn’t “fit perfectly” as Spitz so often repeats.

During the segment on this in the CBS documentary, they also showed another sketch which more accurately depicts the actual fractures. They showed it without giving an explanation or telling us where it came from. But it appears to be another artist’s rendering of the actual autopsy photo that was released by Smit (even down to the coroner’s label that was in the photo showing below the skull). I screen capped that sketch:

attachment.php




Notice that this sketch is apparently made from the photo and not something concocted in Spitz’s imagination.
attachment.php


What I can tell by this photo and the representing sketch above it is the same thing I had posted a few years ago here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ll-Fractures-The-Weapon&p=8660364#post8660364).

The line you see going vertically across the “hole” is where the ME made the coronal incision to reflect the scalp. There remains on the back part of the skull the thin membrane that lies between the skull and the scalp: the pericranium. It is bruised in the area of the impact from the weapon, but you can still partially see through that semi-transparent membrane where the actual depressed fracture is. It is not rectangular, it is elliptical. In fact, I can use my drawing software to draw over it a perfect ellipse:

attachment.php



If you look at the above post, you’ll see that if the linear fracture is pushed together, it fits even more perfectly with the ellipse I drew over the actual depressed fracture:

attachment.php




The problem with all this is that if Spitz starts off with the wrong information (shape of the depressed fracture), how could he possibly match it to the weapon used? That’s why I hate seeing so many accept his idea that the Maglite was used to cause the head wound. It wasn’t.

I could be wrong but when I watched the CBS show that when they were discussing the head wound they talked about the natural suchers(spelling) of the skull and where they fuse. It sounded to me like they described the wound along and to the right of these suchers and I'm no expert but I think that it could definitely account for the rectangular shape and not the crescent shape if you are hitting something that already has a crack/fissure whatever it's going to break along that crack. Idk if anyone understands what I'm saying lol but it makes sense to me especially since I think they said the skull isn't fully fused yet at that age.
 
I have to think that Chief Kolar allowed this misinformation to be shown so as not to compromise the *actual* evidence. Otherwise, I was thoroughly confused and concerned that Spitz was allowed to push his pet theory about the Maglite. IF the general public doesn't know anything about the case, the autopsy, etc. then they will believe this hook, line, and sinker, and it just isn't true.

I don't think the theory of the Maglite flashlight being the murder weapon is a "pet theory" at all. IMO, the skull fracture is neither rectangular nor is it an ellipse. It's more in between, in my view. To say the shape of the fracture in the dummy skull shown on CBS didn't look eerily similar (not perfect, as shouldn't be expected) to the actual fracture is simply not true.
 
"JONBENET'S PAGEANT TITLES:
Colorado State All-Star kids Pageant: April 1994.
Little Miss Charlevoix: July in 1994.
Tiny Miss Beauty: unknown year.
America's Royale Tiny Miss: Division title: July, 1996.
America's Royale Miss Colorado Dream Queen: July 1996.
Miss Colorado Sunburst: October 1995.
Sunburst National Pageant: 2nd place: August 1996.
Colorado's Little Miss Christmas: December 17th 1996.
Colorado's All-stars Christmas Pageant: Metal for talent: December 22nd 1996."

It could not have been a coincidence, in my opinion, that JonBenet who was crowned "Colorado's Little Miss Christmas" eight days before she was murdered
on Christmas Day - of all days!


This could point to premeditation. What are your thoughts on this?
I've always thought it was strange how JR constantly insisted about the reason he put her death date as Christmas is he wanted people to remember she died on Christmas. But...the only way you would know this is if you were there when she passed away. Otherwise what the hell would it matter if she died on Christmas day or the day after. I mean isn't it more important to find her killer? Why does the date have to be the 25th when they were never sure of exact time of death. There basically was only two hours left on the 25th when they got home. It just seems fishy to me that he put it as the 25th. But now knowing that she won that beauty pageant, it damn sure makes me even more curious. This is the first time I knew she won that pageant. Just wow!

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The reason JonBenet was found wearing the new size 12s was b/c ALL of her other underwear was stained. Why not throw them away and purchase new ones? Forcing a child to notice their imperfections every single time they pull down their nasty looking drawers is cruel and abusive.

Rice cooked.
Question. Does anyone know if these panties may have been wrapped with the other gifts in the wine cellar? If they were, maybe Patsy just tore open the package to change her quickly. Ease of access?

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I've always thought it was strange how JR constantly insisted about the reason he put her death date as Christmas is he wanted people to remember she died on Christmas. But...the only way you would know this is if you were there when she passed away. Otherwise what the hell would it matter if she died on Christmas day or the day after. I mean isn't it more important to find her killer? Why does the date have to be the 25th when they were never sure of exact time of death. There basically was only two hours left on the 25th when they got home. It just seems fishy to me that he put it as the 25th. But now knowing that she won that beauty pageant, it damn sure makes me even more curious. This is the first time I knew she won that pageant. Just wow!

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John's bible was found on his desk opened to Psalms 35 and 36 and in his version the first letter of the first 4 verses read CTBS.

It's about fighting the enemies of Christ.

How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock
(Psalm 137:9)
 
In John's interviews he was asked to comment on bicycle tyre imprints photographed in the frost.

I don't know what the weather was like on Christmas Day when JonBenet was playing out on her new bike, but I'm thinking the ground conditions were probably dry just because they might have thought it dangerous to let her practice on a new bigger bike if it was icy.

Which leads me to believe someone had been out on their bike in the early hours of the 26th. I wonder where these tracks went to and if evidence like the weapon was being quietly removed to a spot far away from the house. Probably another reason why loads of people were invited over to create outside traffic and mess with tracks.
 
What do we know or think is missing from the house?

JonBenet's black velvet pants?
Rolls of duct tape and cord
Gloves worn when writing the ransom note?
Practice pages
JonBenet's pink pyjama pants
The cloth used to wipe her blood and the end of the paintbrush
Whatever was used as a weapon?

Anything else?
 
I am so far behind on this thread, I'll never get to read it all! So I apologise if this has already been covered. Re the garrote - wasn't JB's hair found to be tied into the knot? if so, it wasn't from something else and repurposed, nor was it made earlier. If her hair was caught in the knot, it means the cord was tied around her neck, not tied then put over her head. This also means that it couldn't have been pulled tight once tied, as her hair would have been yanked out.

A few years ago, there was some discussion here about this, and the theory was floated that maybe the garrote was tied around her neck to explain marks caused either by a hand or by something else.

Also, I'm wondering whether some of the staging actually happened during John's missing time. Run with me here: BR hits JB, wakes/gets PR (if she didn't actually go to bed). She also panics, writes the note, stages JB to look like a sexual assault - hands overhead etc. JR wakes up in the morning, realises the note is hinky but doesn't know what has happened. Insists on the 911 call. Goes looking for JB during the time is is 'missing', finds her, can't have her found the dramatic way PR has staged, dresses her in the Bloomies panties (has to use them as they're the only thing available in the basement, and he can't go running upstairs to her bedroom for a pair that fit), wraps her in the blanket and moves her so that he can 'find' her later. There's still several problems with this scenario, but I do think the idea of JR changing the staging during his missing time may have legs.
I think you are on to something. I just had the same idea about the panties being in the basement. Since they were meant for another girl in the family. Maybe it was the only thing on hand that wouldn't draw attention to the second staging. I was thinking PR did it but JR would also make sense and account for the time he was missing. PR would want her staged very elaborately. JR wouldn't want that. Especially considering the ransom note was so elaborate. I think JR would see quickly that it was too obvious and try to make it less elaborate plus give his daughter some dignity.

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I don't think the theory of the Maglite flashlight being the murder weapon is a "pet theory" at all. IMO, the skull fracture is neither rectangular nor is it an ellipse. It's more in between, in my view. To say the shape of the fracture in the dummy skull shown on CBS didn't look eerily similar (not perfect, as shouldn't be expected) to the actual fracture is simply not true.

OliviaG1996,
After watching the CBS show twice, and I have to watch episode one for the 911 call again. I reckon the flashlight might be a red herring, it was funny to hear one of the investigators tell spitz you normally use a flashlight to see where you are going, not whack people as BR did with the golf-club.

That was the flashlights role, i.e. to allow the R's possibly including BR to navigate about the house. in the Dr Phil show BR agreed his dad or/and himself used the flashlight that night, BR certainly said he crept downstairs, on his own. So with no intruder involved, we might expect JR's prints on the flashlight, yet it was wiped clean, also if the parents were ignorant about the head blow, why bother wiping it clean?

How about the blunt force weapon being a metal train carriage or similar from BR's bedroom?

.
 
OliviaG1996,
After watching the CBS show twice, and I have to watch episode one for the 911 call again. I reckon the flashlight might be a red herring, it was funny to hear one of the investigators tell spitz you normally use a flashlight to see where you are going, not whack people as BR did with the golf-club.

That was the flashlights role, i.e. to allow the R's possibly including BR to navigate about the house. in the Dr Phil show BR agreed his dad or/and himself used the flashlight that night, BR certainly said he crept downstairs, on his own. So with no intruder involved, we might expect JR's prints on the flashlight, yet it was wiped clean, also if the parents were ignorant about the head blow, why bother wiping it clean?

How about the blunt force weapon being a metal train carriage or similar from BR's bedroom?

.

The inconsistency of JR and BR's story of using a flashlight to put BR to bed, then using it to sneak downstairs to play with a new Christmas toy strikes me as unusual. There's lots of weird "stuff" surrounding the flashlight, which is one reason why I think it had something to do with JBR's death.

I really like the idea of a metal train carriage being the possible murder weapon, too. Do you know if investigator's fully searched BR's room specifically for a blunt object?
 
What did her brain look like at autopsy? Any photos?


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I'm on my tablet, and for some reason it won't allow me to post photos I've screenshotted. If you pause the following video at around :14, you'll see a photo of a bruised brain on the right-hand side. I'm assuming it's JonBenet's, but there's no way to be certain.

[video=youtube;72p_NjCl4pE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72p_NjCl4pE&spfreload=10[/video]
 
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