Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Annapurna]

Its a ligature, we can call it that.

I think calling it anything else clouds the issue. It was neither a garrote nor a tourniquet. It was nothing more than a loop tied in a string with a slipknot. So really a very simple thing. The brush was likely added after, or alternatively was already on the string. However it seems unlikely it was already on the string as the wood splinters were found near the paint tote.

 

[ukrberserker23]

Strictly speaking, otb is correct. It is not a true garotte. Those are usually made of wire, and are designed to work like a choker chain on a dog. Still could have been thought up by a 9 year old.

 

[johnjay]

Its a ligature, we can call it that.

I think calling it anything else clouds the issue. It was neither a garrote nor a tourniquet. It was nothing more than a loop tied in a string with a slipknot. So really a very simple thing. The brush was likely added after, or alternatively was already on the string. However it seems unlikely it was already on the string as the wood splinters were found near the paint tote.

Oh my, ligature made for some disturbing google results. That certainly seems to apply. But was it just pulled or was a turning action used to make is so tight? I can't quite visualize how I could just pull it and create such force. I wonder if this demonstration was cut out of the CBS show. Hmmm. I might have to make one of these and see for myself ...

 

[Heymom]

One serious hang up I have with this case is this dang garrote! How does it fit? Where does it fit?

Almost every angle seems totally crazy if you believe she died of strangulation. I mean to think that parents, a brother, anyone, would go so far as to strangle a dying child or even a dead child at that point seems so out there. I mean seriously, that is way way crazy town.

I get protecting Burke, I get covering up....I even think they are all a little "unique" for sure, but that step just seems nuts.

So here's one possibility perhaps, maybe the kids were playing a game with that rope, maybe it was something as innocent as playing kitty's and JBR was in a leash, like someone else suggested, or as extreme as sexual aggression.

But then something happens she starts to choke and can't get it off her or isn't is and doesn't try and end up snacking her over the had with the flashlight to get her to stop. The ME report talked about how the trachea was swollen.

My thought was perhaps after she was choked, btw the decreased BP from the head injury, and the swelling in her trachea from being strangled....could she have died of asphyxiation this way? Too much swelling, too little pressure...accounting for the time lapse btw the head blow and death?

No, it didn't happen that way. JonBenet's head injury came before anything was applied to her neck. Whether or not you can deal with the thought of it, she was hit on the head and THEN choked, and it wasn't a game. They weren't playing kittens on a leash. JonBenet was unconscious and what was done to her after that ended her life. Other things were also done after she could no longer fight back. That's just how it went down.

 

[ThinkHard]

Its a ligature, we can call it that.

I think calling it anything else clouds the issue. It was neither a garrote nor a tourniquet. It was nothing more than a loop tied in a string with a slipknot. So really a very simple thing. The brush was likely added after, or alternatively was already on the string. However it seems unlikely it was already on the string as the wood splinters were found near the paint tote.

How would where the wood splinters were found determine when the line was tied to the paintbrush? Perhaps it would indicate it had been done that evening, but it doesn't seem to indicate if it was done before or after the strangulation at least in my mind.

 

[Linda7NJ]

No, it didn't happen that way. JonBenet's head injury came before anything was applied to her neck. Whether or not you can deal with the thought of it, she was hit on the head and THEN choked, and it wasn't a game. They weren't playing kittens on a leash. JonBenet was unconscious and what was done to her after that ended her life. Other things were also done after she could no longer fight back. That's just how it went down.

Totally agree


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[ThinkHard]

No, it didn't happen that way. JonBenet's head injury came before anything was applied to her neck. Whether or not you can deal with the thought of it, she was hit on the head and THEN choked, and it wasn't a game. They weren't playing kittens on a leash. JonBenet was unconscious and what was done to her after that ended her life. Other things were also done after she could no longer fight back. That's just how it went down.

Respectfully I understand that is your opinion. But you cannot know that. You do not know that she wasn't partially choked, hit, and then chocked again. You do not know what led up to it, or what they may or may not have been playing. I respect your opinion and perspective, but you can't that these things are known as facts, when they are not known facts.

 

[Annapurna]

Oh my, ligature made for some disturbing google results. That certainly seems to apply. But was it just pulled or was a turning action used to make is so tight? I can't quite visualize how I could just pull it and create such force. I wonder if this demonstration was cut out of the CBS show. Hmmm. I might have to make one of these and see for myself ...

I don't personally think there was any twisting, as I have never heard any expert mention that. Additionally it would cause a different pattern with the ligature. The way you tighten a tourniquet (as you may know) is that you secure a loop, put a stick or something underneath the loop and twist the stick. Then if the stick would be removed, the loop would loosen. *Please Note* I could be wrong, I've never tied a tourniquet. I would guess that the impression and bruising on her neck would appear quite differently. If you have the stomach for it, there is a picture showing the back of her neck with the ligature removed. There is a deep furrow that is even all around except for the area where the knot is. There is a clear impression of the knot, suggesting this must have been how it was when she was strangled.

. A garrote typically has two sticks, used as handles. The string or wire between them is looped around the persons neck but not tied. The perp pulls the handles in opposite directions to make the string or wire as tight as possible. Its kind of a commando type thing, reminds me of Rambo or something.


RE: pulling it tight: there was some pretty significant bruising on the back of her right shoulder. This has been suggested to have come from the perp holding or bracing themselves there while pulling the string.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't personally think there was any twisting, as I have never heard any expert mention that. Additionally it would cause a different pattern with the ligature. The way you tighten a tourniquet (as you may know) is that you secure a loop, put a stick or something underneath the loop and twist the stick. Then if the stick would be removed, the loop would loosen. *Please Note* I could be wrong, I've never tied a tourniquet. I would guess that the impression and bruising on her neck would appear quite differently. If you have the stomach for it, there is a picture showing the back of her neck with the ligature removed. There is a deep furrow that is even all around except for the area where the knot is. There is a clear impression of the knot, suggesting this must have been how it was when she was strangled.

. A garrote typically has two sticks, used as handles. The string or wire between them is looped around the persons neck but not tied. The perp pulls the handles in opposite directions to make the string or wire as tight as possible. Its kind of a commando type thing, reminds me of Rambo or something.


RE: pulling it tight: there was some pretty significant bruising on the back of her right shoulder. This has been suggested to have come from the perp holding or bracing themselves there while pulling the string.

Actually I think that bruising on the back of her neck could be bruising from using the ligature and twisting it. As it gets tighter and tighter it pushes on the skin and would cause bruising similar to that.

 

[Djoop]

If Burke abused and murdered JBR, using a blunt object, 2 hrs playtime and then the garrote, than you're definately looking at someone with a sadistic personality.
I don't see how you could attribute such (psychotic) acts to ASPD (without SPD) traits or those with no Axis II disorders.

Josh Buggar was 14/15 years old and 'just' abused his vicitims, which leaves over a 100 possible ASPD traits and Axis I disorders. It's not a good comparion imho.

JBRs murder could have been an aggressive reaction to the discovery of Burkes abuse and the shame that followed. And then the events leading up to the 25th become more interesting.
But I don't believe Burke murdered his sister in some kind of premeditated plot to cover up his abuse. It doesn't make sense to explore the least likeliest explanations first.

The parents covered it up. Apparantly not afraid they could be the focus of Burke's anger. They must have believed in his chances to overcome his ultra rare personality disorder.
To me, the behavior of the Ramseys provide additional reasoning to explore their family history (in terms of genetic disorders and conduct), whether Burke killed JBR or not.


Sadistic individuals have poor behavioral controls, manifested by a short temper, irritability, low frustration tolerance, and a controlling nature. From an interpersonal standpoint, they are noted to be harsh, hostile, manipulative, lacking in empathy, cold-hearted, and abrasive to those they deem to be their inferiors. Their cognitive nature is considered rigid and prone to social intolerance, and they are fascinated by weapons, war, and infamous crimes or perpetrators of atrocities.

SPDs
- tend to seek psychiatric care at a younger age.
- with significantly more Axis I and II pathology.
- distinguishable from other groups on the basis of family history.

http://www.psy-journal.com/article/0165-1781(93)90077-T/abstract

 

[johnjay]

I don't personally think there was any twisting, as I have never heard any expert mention that. Additionally it would cause a different pattern with the ligature. The way you tighten a tourniquet (as you may know) is that you secure a loop, put a stick or something underneath the loop and twist the stick. Then if the stick would be removed, the loop would loosen. *Please Note* I could be wrong, I've never tied a tourniquet. I would guess that the impression and bruising on her neck would appear quite differently. If you have the stomach for it, there is a picture showing the back of her neck with the ligature removed. There is a deep furrow that is even all around except for the area where the knot is. There is a clear impression of the knot, suggesting this must have been how it was when she was strangled.

. A garrote typically has two sticks, used as handles. The string or wire between them is looped around the persons neck but not tied. The perp pulls the handles in opposite directions to make the string or wire as tight as possible. Its kind of a commando type thing, reminds me of Rambo or something.


RE: pulling it tight: there was some pretty significant bruising on the back of her right shoulder. This has been suggested to have come from the perp holding or bracing themselves there while pulling the string.

Yes, I follow your points. I can imagine pushing her back and pulling, especially if she was partially lifted off the ground and some of here weight was also helping to tighten the ligature. I could imagine Burke hold her off the ground with two hands on the stick, perhaps her weight was enough to create the force needed. I can't imagine Burke holding her off the ground with one hand and pushing, or just being strong enough to push and pull that tight - but that's just my imagination. It does seem like an odd thing for a boy to do. I'm having trouble visualizing this. Surely someone has worked this out in infinite detail by now.

 

[Annapurna]

How would where the wood splinters were found determine when the line was tied to the paintbrush? Perhaps it would indicate it had been done that evening, but it doesn't seem to indicate if it was done before or after the strangulation at least in my mind.

I suppose you're right. One thing that is certain is it could not have been made before the 23rd which is when the tote was placed there by Linda Hoffman-Pugh.

 

[Annapurna]

Actually I think that bruising on the back of her neck could be bruising from using the ligature and twisting it. As it gets tighter and tighter it pushes on the skin and would cause bruising similar to that.

I'm sorry, I don't see what you mean. How would it be twisted?

 

[johnjay]

I'm sorry, I don't see what you mean. How would it be twisted?

I just tried a quick experiment. If after the noose part is around the neck you take the extra rope and wrap that once around the neck and then wrap around the stick you can twist and easily generate a lot of force. I left ligature marks in a roll of packing tape, which served as a neck for my experiment. It was not easy to generate force by pushing and pulling, however I tried with most of the full length of extra rope, which made things awkward. My knots weren't fancy and I didn't have a nylon cord.

 

[otg]

I'm simply stating that in my opinion I don't think that knot could have been tied after she was chocked, I think it was already in place at that time. That is my opinion from viewing the photographic evidence. We don't have to agree, you and others are perfectly welcome to see it differently. There is no harm in that.

I have no problem with anyone disagreeing. I'm just trying to understand what the basis was for your dismissal of another poster's opinion. If I can point out to you why I think you're mistaken, maybe you'll reconsider or simply disagree as respectfully as you ask them to be. It's called "dialog".

ETA: Your photographic evidence was only one photo. I didn't know if you had seen the other one while she was lying on the floor with what appears to be two strands of hair pulled taught between her head and the paintbrush with no sign of the twisted hair.

 

[otg]

Its a ligature, we can call it that.

I think calling it anything else clouds the issue. It was neither a garrote nor a tourniquet. It was nothing more than a loop tied in a string with a slipknot. So really a very simple thing. The brush was likely added after, or alternatively was already on the string. However it seems unlikely it was already on the string as the wood splinters were found near the paint tote.

Thank you. I'm glad you understand the importance of the correct terminology. A garrote and a tourniquet are both specific devices that imply how they are used. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but without that understanding, anyone's theory (whether it is in line with my thoughts or not) will be off. A garrote has two handles and is not tied around a victim's neck -- simply wrapped. A tourniquet is tied around a limb (usually to stop excess bleeding) or a neck with a separate rigid object slipped under it to twist and tighten the ligature. What was found on JonBenet's neck was neither.

 

[otg]

Strictly speaking, otb is correct. It is not a true garotte. Those are usually made of wire, and are designed to work like a choker chain on a dog. Still could have been thought up by a 9 year old.

Did you ever see the scenes in Marathon Man or in The Godfather where a garrote was used?

(Warning: Both scenes are violent and graphic.)

[video=youtube;asGnaw3vSCU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asGnaw3vSCU[/video]


(WS only allows one video per post, so Luca Brasi's garroting in The Godfather is at the following link):

https://youtu.be/1GqYYlqkPdM

 

[johnjay]

Thank you. I'm glad you understand the importance of the correct terminology. A garrote and a tourniquet are both specific devices that imply how they are used. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but without that understanding, anyone's theory (whether it is in line with my thoughts or not) will be off. A garrote has two handles and is not tied around a victim's neck -- simply wrapped. A tourniquet is tied around a limb (usually to stop excess bleeding) or a neck with a separate rigid object slipped under it to twist and tighten the ligature. What was found on JonBenet's neck was neither.

Exactly how do you think this ligature was used?

Also, do you know what kind of knots were used on both ends? Do we have the exact dimensions of the cord?

 

[otg]

One serious hang up I have with this case is this dang garrote! How does it fit? Where does it fit?

Almost every angle seems totally crazy if you believe she died of strangulation. I mean to think that parents, a brother, anyone, would go so far as to strangle a dying child or even a dead child at that point seems so out there. I mean seriously, that is way way crazy town.

I get protecting Burke, I get covering up....I even think they are all a little "unique" for sure, but that step just seems nuts.

So here's one possibility perhaps, maybe the kids were playing a game with that rope, maybe it was something as innocent as playing kitty's and JBR was in a leash, like someone else suggested, or as extreme as sexual aggression.

But then something happens she starts to choke and can't get it off her or isn't is and doesn't try and end up snacking her over the had with the flashlight to get her to stop. The ME report talked about how the trachea was swollen.

My thought was perhaps after she was choked, btw the decreased BP from the head injury, and the swelling in her trachea from being strangled....could she have died of asphyxiation this way? Too much swelling, too little pressure...accounting for the time lapse btw the head blow and death?

I understand your "hang up" (as you call it) over the device often (but still, incorrectly) referred to as a garrote. Now I think maybe you and I are getting somewhere, ThinkHard. Try considering (even though this is not your first thought) how the cord might have been used without the paintbrush attached. She had splinters inside her, and the broken off end of the paintbrush has never been found. The paintbrush attached to the cord served no purpose other than to possibly give more of a grip to the person pulling on it if that is how it was used.

 

[otg]

I don't personally think there was any twisting, as I have never heard any expert mention that. Additionally it would cause a different pattern with the ligature. The way you tighten a tourniquet (as you may know) is that you secure a loop, put a stick or something underneath the loop and twist the stick. Then if the stick would be removed, the loop would loosen. *Please Note* I could be wrong, I've never tied a tourniquet. I would guess that the impression and bruising on her neck would appear quite differently. If you have the stomach for it, there is a picture showing the back of her neck with the ligature removed. There is a deep furrow that is even all around except for the area where the knot is. There is a clear impression of the knot, suggesting this must have been how it was when she was strangled.

. A garrote typically has two sticks, used as handles. The string or wire between them is looped around the persons neck but not tied. The perp pulls the handles in opposite directions to make the string or wire as tight as possible. Its kind of a commando type thing, reminds me of Rambo or something.


RE: pulling it tight: there was some pretty significant bruising on the back of her right shoulder. This has been suggested to have come from the perp holding or bracing themselves there while pulling the string.

IMO, you're correct on every point, Annapurna. One more thing I would add is to point out that the knot on her neck was a slipknot. A slipknot would not be effective used in a tourniquet because it would... well, slip. For a tourniquet (which I have had to use) the knot needs to be secure so it doesn't allow the cord to loosen while it's being tightened.