The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[Heymom]

I've often found that psychiatrist are sought for diagnosis and medication....and the psychiatrist refers the patient to a psychologist or counselor for "talk therapy"

But it hasn't always been that way. As I keep repeating, I had a psychiatrist in the mid-1980's and he did talk therapy with me and did not prescribe medications. When the new antidepressants came online, psychiatrists gradually became less involved in talk therapy and more the medication overseers that they are now. It's a side point, but just to say at that time, Burke might have been doing some therapy even with a psychiatrist. Do we know if he had a psychologist as well?

 

[ZsaZsa]

I'm confused about the location of the 'den' in the house. Anyone know where the den was?

I've read that John's dark blue robe was found dropped in the den, a place it wouldn't normally be. I've also heard John mention that they were setting up phone taps in the den, and I think he mentioned that it was upstairs.

But then we have the study near the garage, presumably some kind of office, so I'm thinking there would be a phone in there. And talk of a cigar humidor on his desk. And I think there may have been a den area near their master bedroom.

Can anyone clarify where the den is that is often referred to, and if there was more than one?

Try Googling the floor plans - https://www.bing.com/images/search?...3659a9ab52339f5bbca8b6o0&mode=overlay&first=1

 

[PositiveLight]

But it hasn't always been that way. As I keep repeating, I had a psychiatrist in the mid-1980's and he did talk therapy with me and did not prescribe medications. When the new antidepressants came online, psychiatrists gradually became less involved in talk therapy and more the medication overseers that they are now. It's a side point, but just to say at that time, Burke might have been doing some therapy even with a psychiatrist. Do we know if he had a psychologist as well?

Very good question. I wonder if he did. I agree though that it's possible that in 1996 the psychiatrist may have also done therapy too. Especially if it was a severe case. I also wonder if Patsy and JonBenet were seeing one also. Patsy was more than likely taking some kind of meds. (Although the pediatrician!!!!! Was giving her benzos. Still shocked at that part!) And JonBenet was having toileting issues so it's possible something was going on that caused that regression. Most people say the regression was due to Patsy's cancer, but it very well could be from a completely different cause. A good pediatrician would recommend her to a psychologist at least to get to the bottom of the issue and what is possibly causing it. It would be much different if she had never been potty trained, but knowing she had and then reverting back is very telling. Cancer of her mother could easily be the cause BUT it could be easily another issue as well. JMOO

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[ThinkHard]

But it hasn't always been that way. As I keep repeating, I had a psychiatrist in the mid-1980's and he did talk therapy with me and did not prescribe medications. When the new antidepressants came online, psychiatrists gradually became less involved in talk therapy and more the medication overseers that they are now. It's a side point, but just to say at that time, Burke might have been doing some therapy even with a psychiatrist. Do we know if he had a psychologist as well?

Yes I'm aware of this, which is why I said "often" not always.

Do you happen to know what school of psychology your psychiatrist followed? Some are more inclined to do talk therapy then others. For example clinical psychiatrists are more interested in other measures such as talk therapy, and behavior modifications, etc. Psychoanalysis developed by Frued is also more talk based as well.

Today yes, the medication game has changed the role of psychiatrists, but some certainly still do council their patients.

Regarding Burke though, I think they would have brought him to a psychiatrist to be diagnosed.

 

[Bently]

:lightbulb:

Going to counseling would explain JB seeing the "doctor" over 30 times in 2 years.

 

[Ashleyh613]

Just adding on not disputing.

Psychiatrist are MD's. They go to medical school just like any other dr, except when they do their residency years they do it under a psychiatrist.

Psychologisist have PhD's, they take far more psych classes then a psychiatrists, and they do lots more research and writing in their schooling as well as field placements. There are lots of different branches of psychology a PhD student can go as well.

Social Workers have an MSW (master of social work) degree. If they go to school to become a Clinical Social Worker, they can counsel others in private practice. But only if they go to school for clinical. Regular social work degrees expose you more to the politics and policy side, whereas clinical focuses more on counseling.

Right that was I was trying to get at too. Although some psychiatrists probably do some talk therapy, it's just less common because they would have to do quite a bit more schooling on top of medical school.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I said in an earlier post that it was not always this way - in the mid 1980's I went to a psychiatrist for therapy. Before all of the new antidepressants and the ADHD boom, psychiatrists DID do therapy as well. Once all of the meds started coming out, the psychiatrists went to prescribing medications almost totally and left the therapy to the psychologists and other counselors. But it wasn't always the way it is now.

People with money still see psychiatrists.


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[BBB167893]

I don't want to rain on anybody's parade, but A&E's running another two hours of garbage tonight at 9:00 (EST). I can't tell if it's completely new or just a new interview cut into that BS-fest from last month, but it seems to be the counteroffensive to the CBS show. This is the preview:

http://www.aetv.com/specials/the-ki...iew-the-killing-of-jonbenet-her-father-speaks

It turns out Dr Phil WASN'T John Ramsey's last interview after all. That lasted all of two weeks. Let's face it, the Dr. Phil thing blew up in their faces. Now they need spin control, a lot of it. But I think it's futile to try and put the genie back into the lamp at this point.

I'm sorry, John, but the war is over, and you've lost. I know taking defeat gracefully isn't your thing, but you could at least try.

 

[ZsaZsa]

:lightbulb:

Going to counseling would explain JB seeing the "doctor" over 30 times in 2 years.

Or allergy shots? She had lots of sinus issues IIRC.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Haha, SuperDave, color me not surprised. I think he made a similar comment about being done with interviews during the JMK debacle and look where we are now.

I'm only halfway through Jim C and Laura R's first podcast about The Case Of but I have a few thoughts. Starting with Clemente's credentials, which are pretty impressive. He mentioned he specialized in crimes related to the sexual abuse of children and Laura is a victim's advocate, but I can't remember what, if any, contribution they made to the short discussion of sexual assault the night of the murder. All I remember is Spitz and Lee discussing it, actually. Were Jim and Laura even in the room? You'd think Jim at least would have something to say. Very curious, still not sure why that subject was glossed over.
Edited to add, if you look at the picture of Laura's JB folder/notebook she posted on Instagram, you can see she has a tab labeled "abuse" so it was obviously something they dedicated some investigation into.

Also, when Laura talks about recreating the house, she said they wanted it to be so detailed that they even included peanut butter smudges/smears on the wall. I'm assuming that is in the kitchen. It's probably nothing but that's the first I remember hearing about peanut butter on the wall.

 

[Ashleyh613]

I looked up Dr. Jaffe, Burke's psychiatrist. He did an interview in a magazine and this is one of the questions asked.

MCJ: A lot of doctors get labeled as “pill pushers.”

Dr. Jaffe: By the time they get to me, they usually have gone through traditional talk therapy, and psychopharmacology might be the best option. I am very much into parents and patients being in an alliance with me. I welcome their research and want them to know as much about the problem as I do. Then we can look at possible treatments.


Also from what I've found it looks like he's specifically a child and adolescent psychiatrist. It's completely inappropriate for him to prescribe medication to JR, which goes to show you that they find less than professional doctors.

 

[ThinkHard]

Or allergy shots? She had lots of sinus issues IIRC.

I'm not sure in the 1990s allergy shots were common.

I'm around the same as as Burke, and I had lots of allergy and got tested often and took drops under my tongue that worked in a similar fashion as allergy shots do when was a kid. But my dr was also really advanced with allergy stuff at that time, and the treatment I was receiving wasn't common. I don't recall allergy shots being a thing back then, or at least not for children.

But that's just my experience, perhaps in other circles it was common then, who knows.

 

[ThinkHard]

I looked up Dr. Jaffe, Burke's psychiatrist. He did an interview in a magazine and this is one of the questions asked.

MCJ: A lot of doctors get labeled as “pill pushers.”

Dr. Jaffe: By the time they get to me, they usually have gone through traditional talk therapy, and psychopharmacology might be the best option. I am very much into parents and patients being in an alliance with me. I welcome their research and want them to know as much about the problem as I do. Then we can look at possible treatments.


Also from what I've found it looks like he's specifically a child and adolescent psychiatrist. It's completely inappropriate for him to prescribe medication to JR, which goes to show you that they find less than professional doctors.

I wonder if he might specialize in certain types of specific childhood issues and was thus recommended to Burke by another Dr.

 

[bonjoviblonde]

I'm not sure in the 1990s allergy shots were common.

I'm around the same as as Burke, and I had lots of allergy and got tested often and took drops under my tongue that worked in a similar fashion as allergy shots do when was a kid. But my dr was also really advanced with allergy stuff at that time, and the treatment I was receiving wasn't common. I don't recall allergy shots being a thing back then, or at least not for children.

But that's just my experience, perhaps in other circles it was common then, who knows.

I have no idea if the Ramsey kids got allergy shots but I worked at an Asthma and Allergy Practice for 12 years (late 80's and all through the 90's) and allergy shots were very common for children who had allergies.

ETA: Not that it matters, but we didn't provide sublingual immunizations for any age because they weren't FDA approved at that time.

 

[TexMex]

:lightbulb:

Going to counseling would explain JB seeing the "doctor" over 30 times in 2 years.

In one of the Larry King Live interviews John said JonBenet had asthma and went to the doctor a lot

 

[ThinkHard]

I have no idea if the Ramsey kids got allergy shots but I worked at an Asthma and Allergy Practice for 12 years (late 80's and all through the 90's) and allergy shots were very common for children who had allergies.

ETA: Not that it matters, but we didn't provide sublingual immunizations for any age because they weren't FDA approved at that time.

It was very experimental stuff my pedetrician was doing at the time. It was called Enzyme Potentiated Desensitation (EPD). He was a very holistic guy, that rarely prescribed antibiotics and regularly pushed things like echinacea tea and arnica cream for injuries.

 

[YouWho]

Agreed. His girlfriend is beautiful. Hope no one tries to move in on his turf. JMOO

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Pure conjecture, but I have a feeling it won't last. They may get married, but if he's unable to really open up, be vulnerable, be honest and share about himself (I'm not even talking about what happened 'that night') ... It would last for awhile, but once it becomes clear the relationship is shallow, and until she realizes she can get her emotional needs matched and fulfilled elsewhere, won't lost long. MOO. (Unless she knows his whole truth, which brings its own conundrum - I.e. How long can she keep quiet?

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Burke's golf clubs between the boxes:

Thanks for the picture, I've never seen that one before. I wonder if this is the pic referenced in Kolar's book that inspired Barbara Fernie to tell police about John's strange comment about Pam getting his golf clubs:
"Barbara Fernie had raised another red flag when she decided to contact investigators in early January 1998. She and her son had seen photographs of golf clubs in a tabloid story about JonBenet while shopping in a grocery store and her son recognized the set of clubs as belonging to Burke. The sight of the golf clubs spurred her memory about an odd comment that John Ramsey had made while staying at the Fernie residence, after the discovery of JonBenet's body."

 

[johnjay]

Pure conjecture, but I have a feeling it won't last. They may get married, but if he's unable to really open up, be vulnerable, be honest and share about himself (I'm not even talking about what happened 'that night') ... It would last for awhile, but once it becomes clear the relationship is shallow, and until she realizes she can get her emotional needs matched and fulfilled elsewhere, won't lost long. MOO. (Unless she knows his whole truth, which brings its own conundrum - I.e. How long can she keep quiet?

It would have been a nice touch to have her appear with Burke on the Dr. Phil show to help him "control the narrative."

 

[Meara]

I'm confused about the location of the 'den' in the house. Anyone know where the den was?

I've read that John's dark blue robe was found dropped in the den, a place it wouldn't normally be. I've also heard John mention that they were setting up phone taps in the den, and I think he mentioned that it was upstairs.

But then we have the study near the garage, presumably some kind of office, so I'm thinking there would be a phone in there. And talk of a cigar humidor on his desk. And I think there may have been a den area near their master bedroom.

Can anyone clarify where the den is that is often referred to, and if there was more than one?

Hi, Tortoise. The den where JR's robe was found is on the 3rd floor, adjacent to the master bedroom. It is also sometimes called JR's study, and his desk was there. There's also a room on the 1st floor, between the hall and the garage, variously referred to as the study or the den. Hope this helps.