Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #5

[crabstick]

Police have the commodore fibres, but there is nothing to say there was multiple vehicles used in each abduction, and overall in each abduction. Obviously police would think so. They pulled up POIs in example Hyundai etc.

So police have fibres, DNA, and some plastic coated chord. I think Telstra technicians fitting in house cable networks may have used commodore station wagons. Vans arent conducive always to underground car parks in multi-story buildings. Although the van was used at Karrakatta according reports.

From the description of the plastic coated rope, it would be lubricated with chemicals that assist it to draw phone cable through conduits in tight bends.

So it could be a Telstra technician with access to multiple vehicles day to day. A Telstra technician that taps victims phones maybe ???

 

[Parkie]

Quote Crabstick; So police have fibres, DNA, and some plastic coated chord. End Quote. I think the clothes line cord might have been rope fibrous on the inside. Hence the likelihood of the plastic cracking over time & the ink getting on the Fibrous rope inner support. A chord is a term used in music.

 

[Parkie]

Could the CSK have worked near or not too far from Claremont. Hence Frank Silas`s suspect? Could he also have worked not far from Highgate & knocked off at 6- 6.30 pm shift & gone hunting one suburb over? Hence a poster has mentioned that Street walkers might have been assumed to have shoved off interstate yet may not have done so.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Police have the commodore fibres,

Allegedly. Police have never said this. It's only been reported by The Post. Apparently they lost them, found them, lost them and then found them again.

but there is nothing to say there was multiple vehicles used in each abduction, and overall in each abduction.

But it's highly unlikely.

Obviously police would think so. They pulled up POIs in example Hyundai etc.

???? LW was a suspect in 1998. Well before they allegedly discovered the Commodore fibres.

A Telstra technician that taps victims phones maybe ???

Sounds legit. He probably tapped CG's phone and she told her sister she would be walking along Stirling Hwy on Friday night at 12:02am. With this information he was able to lay in wait.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Could the CSK have worked near or not too far from Claremont. Hence Frank Silas`s suspect?

Yes but we'd have to assume they thoroughly investigated FS's suspect.

Could he also have worked not far from Highgate & knocked off at 6- 6.30 pm shift & gone hunting one suburb over? Hence a poster has mentioned that Street walkers might have been assumed to have shoved off interstate yet may not have done so.

Starts off targeting well heeled girls who are unobtainable to most
Focuses only on Claremont when there were alternatives available
Then switches up and targets the complete opposite - the most attainable girls.

I think it's unlikely. Possible but unlikely.

 

[crabstick]

A Telstra technician with telephone knowledge could have tapped an analogue mobile phone. Listened to it in their car even. They could of just known they were going to be there on that night. eg. Im going to the tonight. Technician stalks them knowing they'll be there for drinks. Maybe not all, but maybe the main culprit was a stalker who had stalked the girls for a period of time.

The chemicals don't have to be on the plastic chord from hanging dyed clothing either. The supposed print chemicals could end up on the plastic coated chord by a number of other reasons.
He might have been technician by day, worked nights for Telstra, or have a second job as a barman or bus driver as depicted in mystery man in the JR video.

12.00 is just a time people leave. What time did the Claremont hotel shut?

 

[crabstick]

Yeah, look at the discussion on police following one POI where police were amazed at the skill in stalking people in the car around the Claremont block in Debbie Marshalls book. The guy was stalking women around the block over and over, just before the police rushed his car. A typical example of stalking people as they came out the buildings, heading for the highway. He for example would have to know they were there. He probably pumped petrol in their parents cars when he was younger, so probably knew them.

Yeah, stalking is a very real possibility, not just theory random off the street grab.

 

[CSK?]

I agree it is highly possible that the CSK is on a police short list hence why he had stopped because he knows this and deemed the risk too high, and I also find it very unlikely that he would change from "well-to-do posh girls" to common street prostitutes (although possible) but I think there is a chance also that he has never been on the police radar in any way and that he simply "got on" with life, had kids e.t.c he could still maintain a stable job in the Perth area and whip away for a "murder holiday weekend" every few years to target the style of girl he is interested in while remaining undetected.

Some have suggested the lack of public appeal as a sign that the police have a suspect in mind, but don't forget this is the same police force that has shown nothing but incompetence throughout the entire case, after blowing millions on investigating LW I'm sure they are pretty damn tight with their spending now-a-days. And as with some famous abductions/murders here in Adelaide there has been no public appeal for new information in sometimes up to 25 years. If the police were checking for recent deaths or Perth residents that had moved overseas/interstate after the last known murder then sure they would have a manageable sized list, but if the CSK was just an average Joe then there is nothing at all that would jump out to the police and say "I'm the CSK I'm moving away from Perth" so of course he would never appear on their radar other than just another name on a list.

We have all made the assumption that the CSK is local, it is possible he could "hunt" like Israel Keys, The american serial killer whom lived in Alaska but committed his murders in over 8 states. On long weekends/public holidays he would fly into to a neighboring state then driving to the state of his choice (using cash) committing a murder, driving back, flying out from a neighbor state with absolutely no link to him ever having been in that state where the murder took place. This is not to say the CSK may or may not have grew up in Perth and as unlikely a scenario as it seems it certainly is possible, as proved by Israel Keys.

I think if there were suspects on a police short list then that would be even more of a reason to hold an inquest as was done with the suspects in the Daniel Morcombe murder investigation which ultimately helped lead to Queensland police being able to solve that crime, and the inquest in regards to Sarah Mcmahon which had the main suspect Donald Morey appear at the inquest.

My opinion, The police have no idea who the CSK is whatsoever. He is not or never has been on their radar, he may have died/been incarcerated/moved interstate or simply still remains in Perth raising a family. Serial killers not being able to stop is a complete myth, maybe this guy just got out of it while the getting was good.

 

[88mph]

I agree it is highly possible that the CSK is on a police short list hence why he had stopped because he knows this and deemed the risk too high, and I also find it very unlikely that he would change from "well-to-do posh girls" to common street prostitutes (although possible) but I think there is a chance also that he has never been on the police radar in any way and that he simply "got on" with life, had kids e.t.c he could still maintain a stable job in the Perth area and whip away for a "murder holiday weekend" every few years to target the style of girl he is interested in while remaining undetected.

Some have suggested the lack of public appeal as a sign that the police have a suspect in mind, but don't forget this is the same police force that has shown nothing but incompetence throughout the entire case, after blowing millions on investigating LW I'm sure they are pretty damn tight with their spending now-a-days. And as with some famous abductions/murders here in Adelaide there has been no public appeal for new information in sometimes up to 25 years. If the police were checking for recent deaths or Perth residents that had moved overseas/interstate after the last known murder then sure they would have a manageable sized list, but if the CSK was just an average Joe then there is nothing at all that would jump out to the police and say "I'm the CSK I'm moving away from Perth" so of course he would never appear on their radar other than just another name on a list.

We have all made the assumption that the CSK is local, it is possible he could "hunt" like Israel Keys, The american serial killer whom lived in Alaska but committed his murders in over 8 states. On long weekends/public holidays he would fly into to a neighboring state then driving to the state of his choice (using cash) committing a murder, driving back, flying out from a neighbor state with absolutely no link to him ever having been in that state where the murder took place. This is not to say the CSK may or may not have grew up in Perth and as unlikely a scenario as it seems it certainly is possible, as proved by Israel Keys.

I think if there were suspects on a police short list then that would be even more of a reason to hold an inquest as was done with the suspects in the Daniel Morcombe murder investigation which ultimately helped lead to Queensland police being able to solve that crime, and the inquest in regards to Sarah Mcmahon which had the main suspect Donald Morey appear at the inquest.

My opinion, The police have no idea who the CSK is whatsoever. He is not or never has been on their radar, he may have died/been incarcerated/moved interstate or simply still remains in Perth raising a family. Serial killers not being able to stop is a complete myth, maybe this guy just got out of it while the getting was good.

On what basis could they hold the investigation open for 20 years then?

 

[Bartholemeus]

A Telstra technician with telephone knowledge could have tapped an analogue mobile phone. Listened to it in their car even. They could of just known they were going to be there on that night. eg. Im going to the tonight. Technician stalks them knowing they'll be there for drinks. Maybe not all, but maybe the main culprit was a stalker who had stalked the girls for a period of time.

1. None of the girls carried mobile phones
2. It's highly unlikely he stalked them for long at all. Maybe all 3 girls from when they left the drinking establishments at best. Anything more than that is moving into tin foil hat territory.

or have a second job as a barman or bus driver as depicted in mystery man in the JR video.

What?

12.00 is just a time people leave. What time did the Claremont hotel shut?

It's pretty safe to say if a pub empties of people then it's closing time. It was licenced until 12am. Closed at 12am.

He for example would have to know they were there.

No he wouldn't. Unsure how you came to this conclusion. Seems like you're running on 45rpm while the rest of us are on 78.

He probably pumped petrol in their parents cars when he was younger, so probably knew them.

Nope. None of the girls were old enough to be driving in the days where they had servo attendants.

 

[Bartholemeus]

And as with some famous abductions/murders here in Adelaide there has been no public appeal for new information in sometimes up to 25 years.

I assume you're talking about The Family murders. Police know the identities of those involved but they just can't prove it. They know the names but unsure of how involved each person was.

If you want an example of a bungled case then this is it. The whole case evolved around finding the address of the house the boys were kept in. They didn't go hard enough to pressure people into revealing the location. Should have been solved. Ask the average Adelaidian who The Family is comprised of and they'll given you a whole bunch of well known Adelaide identities who had nothing to do with it.

If the police were checking for recent deaths or Perth residents that had moved overseas/interstate after the last known murder then sure they would have a manageable sized list, but if the CSK was just an average Joe then there is nothing at all that would jump out to the police and say "I'm the CSK I'm moving away from Perth" so of course he would never appear on their radar other than just another name on a list.

They just need to rule them out one by one

1. Comprise a list
2. Prioritise this list based on likelihood. Higher weights given to people who worked as a taxi driver, cop, telecom tech etc. Higher weight given to people who lived in the Claremont surrounds. Ditto with people with a history of petty crime, arson etc.
3. Rule them out one by one. Interview them. Ask for an alibi.
4. Check records of missing women where they moved to
5. Ask for their DNA.

A long process but if they have no suspects then they need to start with a blank canvas and trawl through until they get a lucky break.

We have all made the assumption that the CSK is local, it is possible he could "hunt" like Israel Keys, The american serial killer whom lived in Alaska but committed his murders in over 8 states. On long weekends/public holidays he would fly into to a neighboring state then driving to the state of his choice (using cash) committing a murder, driving back, flying out from a neighbor state with absolutely no link to him ever having been in that state where the murder took place. This is not to say the CSK may or may not have grew up in Perth and as unlikely a scenario as it seems it certainly is possible, as proved by Israel Keys.

There's a fair difference in the two I'd say. If someone was coming from interstate or even from outside Perth, why Claremont on all 3 occasions? After JR Claremont was hot. A logical person would change abduction locations but this guy insisted on Claremont.

He likely has a link there and therefore probably resides locally.

My opinion, The police have no idea who the CSK is whatsoever. He is not or never has been on their radar, he may have died/been incarcerated/moved interstate or simply still remains in Perth raising a family. Serial killers not being able to stop is a complete myth, maybe this guy just got out of it while the getting was good.

I have this maybe 4th favourite but not overly confident.

 

[Peter Kurten]

My opinion, The police have no idea who the CSK is whatsoever. He is not or never has been on their radar, he may have died/been incarcerated/moved interstate or simply still remains in Perth raising a family. Serial killers not being able to stop is a complete myth, maybe this guy just got out of it while the getting was good.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.

I have been told that it is a general consensus by many external and internal profilers, based on the facts of the investigation, that the circumstances in which the crimes were carried out led the offender to become psychologically conflicted immediately afterward. I've also been told that this became a paramount profiling approach when filtering information that was coming into the Task force.

What circumstances to do with the crimes led them to believe this I'm not sure, but I've been told of this by more than one person close to the case at the time.

 

[CSK?]

On what basis could they hold the investigation open for 20 years then?

I've no idea, but there are plenty of cold cases whom has never had an inquest conducted, Any thought as to why an inquest has never been conducted would be pure speculation, only the ones in charge of such an inquest could answer why one has never taken place.

 

[crabstick]

Police have DNA, so they must have some DNA attributes of who they are looking for. Even now with familial DNA, and other databases the police must have an idea of a profile. The main culprit (DNA specimen) is either in jail, dead or they cant find him for one reason or another.

Yeah, I have on reasonable authority, taxi frequency was accessible via radio 'scanner' if need be in the day. May people had scanners that could pick police conversation in the day. Tow truck drivers would use scanners to pick up jobs from multiple sources.

 

[88mph]

Police have DNA, so they must have some DNA attributes of who they are looking for. Even now with familial DNA, and other databases the police must have an idea of a profile. The main culprit (DNA specimen) is either in jail, dead or they cant find him for one reason or another.

Yeah, I have on reasonable authority, taxi frequency was accessible via radio 'scanner' if need be in the day. May people had scanners that could pick police conversation in the day. Tow truck drivers would use scanners to pick up jobs from multiple sources.

I don't think they do have DNA as such. They have a forensic link (whatever that means) but no DNA.

The forensic link is almost what a politician would say to lead you to believe they have DNA.

If they had DNA they would have ruled out PW, LW, MAP much sooner.

When is the Post going to give us another clue. BC has been too quite as late..... If you're reading BC, please get us something new to chew on, hopefully something around the Telstra suspect.

 

[Bartholemeus]

I don't think they do have DNA as such. They have a forensic link (whatever that means) but no DNA.

The forensic link is almost what a politician would say to lead you to believe they have DNA.

If they had DNA they would have ruled out PW, LW, MAP much sooner.

When is the Post going to give us another clue. BC has been too quite as late..... If you're reading BC, please get us something new to chew on, hopefully something around the Telstra suspect.

BC's claim is they discovered the DNA in 2011. I think we all agree it's impossible for them to have had DNA from the get go or even any time prior to (circa) 2004. But it's possible with technology advances they got a full or part profile in 2011.

The claim is that whatever DNA profile Macro had, they were able to link it to Karra and also eliminate the known public suspects.

Certainly a part profile might be enough to eliminate some but not others. For example a part profile might be enough to determine LW, SR, PW, and MD aren't the CSK, whereas every part of that incomplete profile might so far match MAP and more DNA is needed to compare the rest.

But here's the conflict;

To be able to determine with surety that the DNA from CG matches DNA taken from Karra, they have to have a full profile. And make no mistake, BC claims very clearly this is how the crimes were linked.

There's a number of people on here who are having a bet both ways; "LW has been ruled because they have DNA, but I think MAP is the CSK". This just doesn't work on any level. Even if we assume they had enough DNA to be confident (without being sure) the CSK is also Karra Man then they also must have enough DNA to rule MAP in or out. They can't have it both ways. It would be highly unlikely they have been unable to secure MAP's DNA.



If they have DNA then it's unlikely the CSK is on their short list. It wouldn't be as if their sitting on top priority suspects dying wondering while not thinking it's important enough to investigate suspects down the list. Those top suspects would be ruled out once they have DNA, the list would bump and they work to eliminate the next person via alibi, interrogation and DNA.

I still slightly lean towards not having DNA. My best guess for the leak of misinformation being because they're working a suspect. But what if this is part of the smokescreen to hold off an inquiry?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Police have DNA, so they must have some DNA attributes of who they are looking for. Even now with familial DNA, and other databases the police must have an idea of a profile. The main culprit (DNA specimen) is either in jail, dead or they cant find him for one reason or another.

Yeah, I have on reasonable authority, taxi frequency was accessible via radio 'scanner' if need be in the day. May people had scanners that could pick police conversation in the day. Tow truck drivers would use scanners to pick up jobs from multiple sources.

Pretty sure all people convicted and given a custodial sentence have their DNA taken. Therefore we can rule prison out.

 

[Nugget77]

Hi there,

First time poster but been lurking on and off for a while. I haven't got any specific skills however there is something that I've been thinking about which has prompted me to post.

People are saying that the CSK is either dead, in jail or moved away. I believe there may be another alternative.

What if the CSK was having some kind of extended psychotic episode or episodes at the time? They've then received treatment and have been under care or been looked after by a family member.

The reason I raise this is that I have a friend with schizophrenia and he went through a few years in his late teens/early 20's where he was completely off the rails. He got treatment (was forced) following a car accident and has not driven since or really left his parents side. He's reverted to a more childlike state.

If it can happen to one person, perhaps this type of scenario might equally apply to the CSK?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Hi there,

First time poster but been lurking on and off for a while. I haven't got any specific skills however there is something that I've been thinking about which has prompted me to post.

People are saying that the CSK is either dead, in jail or moved away. I believe there may be another alternative.

What if the CSK was having some kind of extended psychotic episode or episodes at the time? They've then received treatment and have been under care or been looked after by a family member.

The reason I raise this is that I have a friend with schizophrenia and he went through a few years in his late teens/early 20's where he was completely off the rails. He got treatment (was forced) following a car accident and has not driven since or really left his parents side. He's reverted to a more childlike state.

If it can happen to one person, perhaps this type of scenario might equally apply to the CSK?

As with Romuald Zak, it's highly unlikely someone with schizophrenia would be an organised killer like the CSK. I'd suggest it would be impossible for a schizophrenic to do what the CSK did.

 

[Nugget77]

As with Romuald Zak, it's highly unlikely someone with schizophrenia would be an organised killer like the CSK. I'd suggest it would be impossible for a schizophrenic to do what the CSK did.

Cheers. What about other illnesses? Mental or otherwise? Perhaps something debilitating could have taken the person out.

I'm no psych but does schizophrenia manifest itself in many different ways?