Was Burke Involved? # 4

[madeleine]

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/

Based upon my review of those theories, it is my belief that the fingernail marks on JBR’s throat were created when the collar of her shirt was pulled tight around her neck, at the same time that the triangular shaped bruise was formed on the front her neck. Next came the blow to her head that rendered her unconscious.
The garrote could not have been responsible for the triangular bruising, and was applied some period of time later, when JBR was unconscious and unable to struggle against the placement of the cord.
I don’t believe the strangulation with the cord was a part of staging, and its use constituted an underlying part of the motivation involved in the assault on JBR. A more complete analysis of the sequencing of the injuries was offered in Chapter 6 of the book.

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I believe the commonly held theory, based upon the sequencing of injuries, is that the garroting and the location of her death was on the small piece of carpet located outside the wine cellar door. Her bladder let go upon death, accounting for the urine stains in the front of her clothing and carpet. The rear application of the garrote is confirming evidence of her being on her stomach during this act.

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First strangled with the collar then came the blow to the head (kitchen?). And she was finished off down in the basement. If BDI how did he carry her down to the basement? Did he drag her? Or maybe placed her on the blanket and dragged the blanket with JB on top of it?

 

[Karinna]

Because Patsy was on the verge of exhaustion and sensory overload. She acted in a reckless manner and the result was a grievous injury to JonBenet that snowballed. Call it an accident or call it loss of self control, I still lean toward PDI. I still lean toward a low velocity/high pressure head trauma (discussed elsewhere here in earlier threads).

On the other hand, statistically, John Ramsey is the most likely candidate.

The recent television specials have not convinced me Burke did it.

Whoever is guilty, JonBenet deserved to receive medical treatment and her parents are ultimately responsible for that not happening.

I agree, and i think from what i have read the ex housekeeper said PR had become very moody just before the death of JBR.
(quote)
She said she told the grand jury that Patsy had become very moody right before Christmas of 1996. "I think she had multiple personalities. She'd be in a good mood and then she'd be cranky. She got into arguments with JonBenet about wearing a dress or about a friend coming over. I had never seen Patsy so upset.
She said the grand jury focused almost exclusively on Patsy Ramsey. "It was almost all about Patsy, down to the underwear she had purchased from Bloomingdales," she said. "They wanted to know how she related to JonBenet. I felt in my heart they were going to indict Patsy."
http://rense.com/general11/benet.htm

 

[madeleine]

this would explain the 45-2hours time frame between the blow and her being finished off. He didn't know what to do. And maybe the sexual assault was pure curiosity and he could have made experiments since she was unconscious. . Yep the BDI did it all except cleaning the body and writing the note theory makes sense. Mommy did that. And dad found her at 11 am.

 

[Karinna]

this would explain the 45-2hours time frame between the blow and her being finished off. He didn't know what to do. And maybe the sexual assault was pure curiosity and he could have made experiments since she was unconscious. . Yep the BDI did it all except cleaning the body and writing the note theory makes sense. Mommy did that. And dad found her at 11 am.

I try to imagine if BR got mad at JBR for whatever reason, and he in anger lashes out and whacks her over the head with a weapon and knocks her unconscious, he as a 9/10 yr.old would probably freak out when he couldn't wake her up after prodding her with a train track, and probably has an "oh s**t" moment when she wouldn't wake up, and then what? He premeditatively thinks oh i will just get a garotte and strangle her to make sure she's dead, after he thinks she could be dead but isn't sure, and then what? Tell mom & dad what he did?

 

[madeleine]

I try to imagine if BR got mad at JBR for whatever reason, and he in anger lashes out and whacks her over the head with a weapon and knocks her unconscious, he as a 9/10 yr.old would probably freak out when he couldn't wake her up after prodding her with a train track, and probably has an "oh s**t" moment when she wouldn't wake up, and then what? He premeditatively thinks oh i will just get a garotte and strangle her to make sure she's dead, after he thinks she could be dead but isn't sure, and then what? Tell mom & dad what he did?

I think what happened upstairs was rage. What happened downstairs more like an experiment or curiosity. I think he told mom. But I don't think he was scared. He laughs when talking about how she was taken to the basement. They could have been both afraid of dad though. So it remained their little secret. Until next morning.

 

[Charliegirl610]

this would explain the 45-2hours time frame between the blow and her being finished off. He didn't know what to do. And maybe the sexual assault was pure curiosity and he could have made experiments since she was unconscious. . Yep the BDI did it all except cleaning the body and writing the note theory makes sense. Mommy did that. And dad found her at 11 am.

I tend to agree with this. Both JBR and BR were up and running around the house while PR and JR were up on the third floor. It was Christmas night, lots of toys that they didn’t get to play with earlier that day downstairs under the tree. BR admits to having gotten out of bed and going downstairs. JBR maybe goes to BR’s room upon waking and finds him gone so she goes looking for him. BR gets the pineapple bowl out of the fridge and begins to snack. JBR either steals a piece of it or he willingly hands her a piece with his hands. BR remembers there are wrapped gifts still in the basement and wants to know what’s in them. The light switch to the basement is out of reach for him so he uses the flashlight in the drawer in the kitchen bar to sneak down into the basement, JBR follows him. Once in the basement, the light switches are easily reached. They peek into the remaining wrapped gifts in the basement, play a little bit and something happens to tick off BR. Maybe JBR was knocking down the elaborate lego creations BR was known to build. Who knows? He’s pissed and chases JBR because he’s mad. She runs to the boiler room near where the wine cellar is located and the vent pipe to the outside that allows the neighbor to hear her scream as BR grabs her and uses the flashlight to smack JBR in the head. She falls unconscious face down. BR doesn’t realize he has fatally injured her. He continues playing. After a while JBR still hasn’t woken up. There are no external signs of a mortal head wound and he thinks she is faking. He begins poking at her to rouse her. Still unresponsive he is getting angrier and forcefully jabs her with one of the train tracks that are littered all over the floor. While she is laying there still unresponsive, he begins to inappropriately touch her (sorry for the metal images) and grabs a paint brush that is right next to him to insert into JBR. He injures her causing her to bleed. Now he knows he’s in trouble when the parents find out. So angrily he fashions the garrote and proceeds to strangle JBR from behind while she is still lying face down. This is not complicated for him to create. He’s a scout and has been sailing with JR. The garrote is created using simple knots. He may be unaware that he has killed his sister but she is not getting up. At this point he either goes to tell his parents that something is wrong with JBR or PR is still awake prepping for the morning trip, this is when she carries the bag of winter clothes downstairs (it was found at the bottom of the spiral staircase). PR finds JBR and sends BR to his room directing him to bed. PR wakes JR and they realize JBR is dead and go into cover mode for BR. They wipe JBR clean, grab a blanket that is in the dryer (with the Barbie nightgown clung to it) and wrap her because placing her on that moldy dingy wine cellar floor is out of the question. Her hands are loosely tied up above her head and duct tape is used to cover her mouth to make it appear that someone she didn’t know took her from her bedroom. JR removes the rest of the duct tape and any cord left from the house, wipes down the flashlight and begins cleaning up any signs that would point to a family member. PR writes the rambling short story of a ransom note. They’ve been cleaning and staging this scene since 1:30ish until 5:30AM. JR goes to take a shower, PR is still in the clothes she wore to the White’s Xmas dinner. She calls 911. In order to pull the charade off she has to be screaming and hysterical. This wakes up BR, he comes down to hear the very ending of the 911 call and asks “What DID you find?” They direct him back to bed and to keep his mouth shut about the events that happened with JBR. They never tell him that he killed his sister. He has never had consequences thus far when he misbehaved, he doesn’t think what he did was bad. But after learning that JBR is “with Beth in heaven now” he is relieved. JBR was a nuisance to him, got all the attention and he’s happy to be rid of her. Don’t ask for the source but I recall reading that JR told Arndt “I don’t think he mean to kill her” upon bringing JBRs body upstairs. Who would say such a thing upon finding their child murdered unless you knew who did it and why?
BR is happy to move on with life as the center of his parents attention immediately after JBR’s death. He has basically pushed out of his mind any real memories or reminders of JBR, life is good for BR. He didn’t care much for her and so he can’t even pretend to be grieving 13 days later when he is interviewed and draws a family portrait sans JBR. At age 11 when he interviewed the only time he seems to stammer is when he is shown the pineapple bowl photo. After studying it a bit he says “oh….” He is reminded of that night and realizes that the story he was instructed to stick to by his parents never accounted for that bowl of pineapple. Early on the Ramsey’s were able to get AH to sign a release stating that BR is not a suspect. This was a condition to their agreeing to be interviewed. The LE was never permitted to explore BR as a suspect and were only able to find evidence that linked the parents to the murder but were unable to accurately say what roles they played beyond a reasonable doubt. The GJ hearing all the evidence I believe were spot on with their indictments. Having BR testify at the GJ hearing was what sealed the deal. If he took the stand any where remotely close to how he interviewed with the child psychologist at age 10 and the LE at age 11 and the interviews with DR. Phil, the GJ saw the facts for what they were and made the right call. I pray that Dr. Spitz doesn’t settle this latest law suit on behalf of BR for defamation. Only when BR is forced to testify will the truth be outted.

 

[Ambitioned]

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First strangled with the collar then came the blow to the head (kitchen?). And she was finished off down in the basement. If BDI how did he carry her down to the basement? Did he drag her? Or maybe placed her on the blanket and dragged the blanket with JB on top of it?

I think IF he took her to the basement it would be under the arms. This is a bad example but sort of shows where I'm getting at:

I can't really see it though tbh. I believe she was whacked in the basement and prodded with the tracks in the basement. Possibly over playing with his trains or an argument over the torn gifts. He would lose if it she played with his trains. We already know he was very territorial.

 

[PositiveLight]

I hope a pitbull of an attorney questions him on the stand. No more kid gloves.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Karinna]

this would explain the 45-2hours time frame between the blow and her being finished off. He didn't know what to do. And maybe the sexual assault was pure curiosity and he could have made experiments since she was unconscious. . Yep the BDI did it all except cleaning the body and writing the note theory makes sense. Mommy did that. And dad found her at 11 am.

Didn't Dr. Spitz state there was no sexual assault on JBR the night of her murder in the CBS special? So what is it, was she or not sexually assaulted? Nothing like confusion in the mix.

 

[Ambitioned]

I think he meant no penile rape. It is confusing with their wording.

 

[Karinna]

I think he meant no penile rape. It is confusing with their wording.

I'm not sure what he really meant because he also mentioned how the little sliver of paintbrush found at autopsy was more than likely transferred in some other way but not by insertion.

 

[RL2]

Because Patsy was on the verge of exhaustion and sensory overload. She acted in a reckless manner and the result was a grievous injury to JonBenet that snowballed. Call it an accident or call it loss of self control, I still lean toward PDI. I still lean toward a low velocity/high pressure head trauma (discussed elsewhere here in earlier threads).

On the other hand, statistically, John Ramsey is the most likely candidate.

The recent television specials have not convinced me Burke did it.

Whoever is guilty, JonBenet deserved to receive medical treatment and her parents are ultimately responsible for that not happening.

I have always been strictly PDI, so now with (mainly) Burke's own odd behavior in interviews, I am mainly just confused!


Someone had discussed PR being on diet pills, basically legal speed, and being under stress at Christmas time (not wanting to go to Charlevoix, her 40th birthday in a couple days, housekeeper didn't come on the 24th to clean up after the party on the 23rd), so, I can fully understand her lashing out all frustration over JBR wetting the bed (or back-talking her, for that matter).

BUT- now, I do see where the amateur sexual injuries may be better explained by the BDI theory. Plus, let's just face it, he's a strange guy. Innocent or guilty, his Dr Phil interview was just suicide to his character..

So....... IMO iif Burke didn't do it, he knows that his mother did. Maybe he witnessed the injury? If that's the case-He may have already been an at-risk child, but no wonder he is completely screwed now as an adult!

 

[RL2]

A couple more ideas...1. Am I the only one who cannot see Patsy risking herself covering for Burke's bratty *advertiser censored* while knowing that people may conclude that she killed JBR? Besides that, that evidence of her being involved in Burke's mess may eventually land her in prison? (the public's perception would likely terrify her even more than orange not being her color).I can see her throwing Burke's *advertiser censored* under the bus in a minute and being childless (no more wet sheets, period!)2. Technically, that's what she ultimately did anyway by not taking responsibilty or telling the truth when it is OBVIOUS that she wrote that damn RN, and her fibers are all over the crime scene. In and interview in 2000, she told Katie Couric she was surprised that she had lived that long bc she just knew that her cancer would eventually come back (which it did, eventually), and she would never live to see her children grow up.She felt like she would die in the near future after JBR''s death, anyway, knowing that Burke would be the one having to deal with this for the rest of his life-for many, many years.

 

[UKGuy]

Didn't Dr. Spitz state there was no sexual assault on JBR the night of her murder in the CBS special? So what is it, was she or not sexually assaulted? Nothing like confusion in the mix.

Karinna,
Yup Spitz thinks there was no sexual assault. He poo poohed the bloodstains away. He likely thinks the blood was caused by staging, and not by an acute sexual assault. The BPD called it Vaginal Trauma

.

 

[Charliegirl610]

A couple more ideas...1. Am I the only one who cannot see Patsy risking herself covering for Burke's bratty *advertiser censored* while knowing that people may conclude that she killed JBR? Besides that, that evidence of her being involved in Burke's mess may eventually land her in prison? (the public's perception would likely terrify her even more than orange not being her color).I can see her throwing Burke's *advertiser censored* under the bus in a minute and being childless (no more wet sheets, period!),

I absolutely could see PR covering for BR. If the parents didn't protect him and take all the steps they did to attempt to point to an outsider, her facade of the "perfect" family would be public. For one thing I believe she truly was grieving the loss of JBR, but her focus then became protection of BR for fear she'd lose him too. Secondly she had an image and reputation to uphold. She couldn't risk all their dirty laundry being aired. The Ramsey's lawyered up on the afternoon that JBR was murdered. What innocent family does that even before giving statements to police that result in acknowledgement that the family were suspected? What father finds his murdered child and within 20 minutes is calling to his private pilot to get the plane ready to leave the state? This was before the LE cleared the house and taped it off as a crime scene. I get that physical evidence is a must when charging and/or convicting someone of a crime. But for goodness sake, these few examples plus the many many inconsistent behaviors, actions, statements etc....that go against any parents not guilty of the murder of their child have to be taken into consideration. It defies logic and common sense to think any other way imho. She'd have thrown herself in front of a train before allowing the public to know just how dysfunctional and disturbing things truly were behind the closed doors of that home

 

[UKGuy]

I'm still with you, BOESP. Anything Burke could have done, Patsy could have done.

SuperDave,
So how come neither parent was charged with Child Abuse the anonymous person in the True Bill indictment is so charged, e.g.

COUNT IV

did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously. permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenet Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen.

COUNT VII

On or about December 25, and December 26, 1996 in Boulder County, Colorado, did unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the First Degree and Child Abuse Resulting in Death.

I used to think PDI was a possibility until I realized what the True Bills were saying, i.e. the unnamed person is a third party, neither JR or PR, otherwise either or both would have the Child Abuse charge leveled at them. That is neglecting the Murder in the First Degree, assuming a cross finger pointing defense.

That you have a Third Party leaves only one resident to consider as a suspect, unless you want to suggest an external party or friend of the parent?

.

 

[Tortoise]

SuperDave,
So how come neither parent was charged with Child Abuse the anonymous person in the True Bill indictment is so charged, e.g.

COUNT IV


COUNT VII


I used to think PDI was a possibility until I realized what the True Bills were saying, i.e. the unnamed person is a third party, neither JR or PR, otherwise either or both would have the Child Abuse charge leveled at them. That is neglecting the Murder in the First Degree, assuming a cross finger pointing defense.

That you have a Third Party leaves only one resident to consider as a suspect, unless you want to suggest an external party or friend of the parent?

.

If there is evidence that the parents knew what had happened, but no evidence of who the abuser and murderer was, then I can see the reason for the indictments and no indictments for the charges of abuse and murder.

I don't accept the view that the indictments are proof of a third party, they don't exclude a third party but they aren't proof of it.

It doesn't matter how many legally unqualified people say that's not the case in their view. Where are the legal opinions backing that up? Even the CBS lawyer brought in to give a view was not certain.

 

[Annapurna]

A couple more ideas...1. Am I the only one who cannot see Patsy risking herself covering for Burke's bratty *advertiser censored* while knowing that people may conclude that she killed JBR? Besides that, that evidence of her being involved in Burke's mess may eventually land her in prison? (the public's perception would likely terrify her even more than orange not being her color).I can see her throwing Burke's *advertiser censored* under the bus in a minute and being childless (no more wet sheets, period!)2. Technically, that's what she ultimately did anyway by not taking responsibilty or telling the truth when it is OBVIOUS that she wrote that damn RN, and her fibers are all over the crime scene. In and interview in 2000, she told Katie Couric she was surprised that she had lived that long bc she just knew that her cancer would eventually come back (which it did, eventually), and she would never live to see her children grow up.She felt like she would die in the near future after JBR''s death, anyway, knowing that Burke would be the one having to deal with this for the rest of his life-for many, many years.

I don't think she was thinking clearly enough to realize that she may be suspected if she covered for him. She was thinking people would just buy her story. I don't think the R's could have ever anticipated the ridiculous amount of media attention, the number of people pouring over every detail of the case.

I think there is a little bit of hindsight syndrome going on when people try to talk about how the R's behaved illogically (which they did). There was not a whole lot of logic going through their minds I imagine.

 

[TexMex]

I don't think she was thinking clearly enough to realize that she may be suspected if she covered for him. She was thinking people would just buy her story. I don't think the R's could have ever anticipated the ridiculous amount of media attention, the number of people pouring over every detail of the case.

I think there is a little bit of hindsight syndrome going on when people try to talk about how the R's behaved illogically (which they did). There was not a whole lot of logic going through their minds I imagine.

Agree. This case also happens in the slow news week between Christmas and New Years. That gave it extra attention to begin with. When the pagent pictures popped up soon after the media attention exploded

 

[UKGuy]

If there is evidence that the parents knew what had happened, but no evidence of who the abuser and murderer was, then I can see the reason for the indictments and no indictments for the charges of abuse and murder.

I don't accept the view that the indictments are proof of a third party, they don't exclude a third party but they aren't proof of it.

It doesn't matter how many legally unqualified people say that's not the case in their view. Where are the legal opinions backing that up? Even the CBS lawyer brought in to give a view was not certain.

Tortoise,
The CBS lawyer said there was nothing impeding the GJ from charging either parent with Murder 1 charges. Its maybe not hard proof, but since we all know why the third party is referred to as a person, i.e. BR was an infant under Colorado Statute, so becomes anonymous.

If person referred to a parent why not name them, they are already down for two other charges, so there is no need for anonymity?

The GJ are saying they think the case is definitely BDI with the parents staging the wine-cellar, etc. Of course they might be wrong and its really PDI, and like OJ, she got away with murder?

.