Was Burke Involved? # 4

[kanzz]

John is the one element I have never been able to fit neatly into any theory. I don't believe he ever molested his daughter. I don't believe he killed his daughter. I don't believe he took part in the staging of the body. But I am fairly confident that he knew the body was in the wine cellar prior to "discovering" her on the trip to the basement with FW. I'm leaning toward his finding the body on his first trip down to the basement. But honestly...I just can't make any logical, concrete connections where John is concerned.

Agree. This is what I've been saying, too. I think there's a chance JR got sucked into the vortex and became an accessory to the cover-up through the course of the morning. He probably recognized PR's handwriting on some level, but didn't want to believe his eyes, then started piecing things together as he distanced himself from PR and others that morning. I also believe it's possible that he might have first found the body during that unaccounted for 80 minutes - at around 11:00, as he mentioned to MR's boyfriend, but that he didn't want to be the one who found her alone, and that's why he took FW with him later when Det Arndt asked him to search the house for anything out of place. JMO.. a theory in progress, so to speak.

 

[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,



That maybe with a smirk and eyes bulging open, is likely code for maybe not since if you remember in one of his interviews he was asked when did you last see JonBenet alive, long wait here, then in the car

For BR to admit that must mean they reviewed the CBS documentary and realized there is all this forensic evidence linking BR to the breakfast bar. So BR will have an explanation no doubt.

So who his telling the truth BR or JR: I helped Burke fix a toy then took him to bed or BR, speculating me and JonBenet went back downstairs for a snack?

The pineapple bowl in the breakfast bar is a serving bowl, the spoon is larger than normal, I seriously doubt either BR or JonBenet could eat with it.

Because its a serving bowl with pineapple in it, that's probably why it was left untouched, i.e. the pineapple appears still edible?

There was likely two other bowls which might have been removed by the helpers

Ohhh YES!
That "maybe" with the smirk. As long as I live this is one interview that will always stand out in my mind. That was not nerves or anxiety. That was a cat with the mouse's tail hanging out of it's mouth. Makes my skin crawl I swear!

 

[HarmonyE.]

Said Kanzz

You very well could be right and I could be wrong. It's just a hunch on my part. I'm not sure that what JR says to BR is indicative of his complicity in the cover-up or that he necessarily knew anything at that point, however. When I said nothing tells me that JR was close enough to either PR or BR to cover for either of them, I should clarify - I meant that I don't think he would have covered up immediately after the crime, prior to the 911 call. Apologies for this confusion. My take on what he said at the end of the 911 call is that he was telling BR not to interrupt when the adults were speaking. But I agree that he became an accessory in the cover-up at some point - even if my hunch is correct. I think his first clue was when he recognized PR's handwriting on the RN (but didn't want to believe his eyes) and then he started piecing things together as the morning progressed.



"There may be no evidence that John was involved before this point, but I have trouble imagining an hysterical Patsy pulling off the full cover up without his help."


It is hard to imagine.. any of it. It's also hard for me to imagine that JR would have gone along with this bizarro thing prior to the 911 call. JMO. And I respect yours. It's all speculation.

It's not so much what John said to Burke that can be heard on the tape, it is the fact that Burke was sent to bed immediately after, before the first officer arrived, no doubt with instructions to pretend to be asleep and deny knowledge of hearing or seeing anything. I don't see how John would go along with this unless he knew what had happened.

If Burke were my son and I came downstairs to a note like that knowing nothing else, there's no question in my mind I'd be intensely interrogating him - and would gladly let the shortly arriving officer do the same. He was the only other person known to be on the second floor that night. I wouldn't send him - or let my spouse send him - to bed with orders to pretend he'd been asleep through everything.

As for why, the only reason that makes sense for either parent is that they knew their daughter was dead and they made a decision to do what they could to cover for their son. I agree that John probably didn't play a part in the overkill ransom note, but this doesn't mean he wasn't busy doing other things that needed to be done as part of the staging.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Mountain_Kat,
JR likely revised whatever staging had been done before they went for the abduction scenario. JR's fibers are allegedly in JonBenet's size-12's, assuming they were clean on, and given the rarity of the fibers that then links JR to the crime-scene directly.

I think it's important to remember that this was a family who lived together in the same house, though. It isn't hard to imagine, for instance, that a load of clothes in the dryer might contain JB's underwear and clothing articles belonging to other family members. For me personally, the fiber evidence linking JR to the body is not as incriminating as the fiber evidence linking PR to the staging...where we have fiber evidence from the jacket she wore the night of the murder linked to the paint tote and tangled inside the knots of the ligature. Much like touch dna belonging to BR on the Barbie nightgown doesn't mean all that much to me...they lived in the same house. Kids touch each other. Maybe the nightgown had been recently washed, maybe she wore it that night. Or maybe she wore it the night before and it lay on the floor of her bedroom all day. Who can say? But certainly, we can all agree that not all fiber evidence is equal...particularly in this case.

JMO

 

[kanzz]

Said Kanzz



It's not so much what John said to Burke that can be heard on the tape, it is the fact that Burke was sent to bed immediately after, before the first officer arrived, no doubt with instructions to pretend to be asleep and deny knowledge of hearing or seeing anything. I don't see how John would go along with this unless he knew what had happened.

If Burke were my son and I came downstairs to a note like that knowing nothing else, there's no question in my mind I'd be intensely interrogating him - and would gladly let the shortly arriving officer do the same. He was the only other person known to be on the second floor that night. I wouldn't send him - or let my spouse send him - to bed with orders to pretend he'd been asleep through everything.

As for why, the only reason that makes sense for either parent is that they knew their daughter was dead and they made a decision to do what they could to cover for their son. I agree that John probably didn't play a part in the overkill ransom note, but this doesn't mean he wasn't busy doing other things that needed to be done as part of the staging.

I don't think JR had much say in things when it came to the kids.
I can see PR saying to BR, "Go back to bed. We'll explain this later. If anyone asks, you didn't hear or see anything and you don't know anything." Then JR rushed upstairs to get dressed. JMO.

 

[Ambitioned]

Ohhh YES!
That "maybe" with the smirk. As long as I live this is one interview that will always stand out in my mind. That was not nerves or anxiety. That was a cat with the mouse's tail hanging out of it's mouth. Makes my skin crawl I swear!

Speaking of skin crawling, what is Woody talking about??

 

[Ambitioned]

Umm.. No. Not exactly. In fact, nothing at all like the game you describe. That's a stretch. Nobody turned to see if the leaf floated under the bridge.
BTW - Hitting JB in the face with a golf club doesn't constitute a game of golf, either.

I played Pooh Sticks all the time as a kid. This isn't Pooh Sticks.

This is Burke's, "LEAF ME ALONE! I'm not having any of this!"

 

[HarmonyE.]

ha! Lyn is b****ing about the Constitution. He wants to "tweak" the Freedom of Speech part. Wonder why?:laugh:

 

[Ambitioned]

:lol: :lol:

 

[Heymom]

Speaking of skin crawling, what is Woody talking about??

Has he been imbibing??? This makes very little sense. "Reputation?" Whose reputation?

 

[HarmonyE.]

Has he been imbibing??? This makes very little sense. "Reputation?" Whose reputation?

No doubt one or more of his clients' "reputations".

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The lack of charges does not necessarily mean that the evidence isn't there. Alex Hunter is and was a COWARD who did not have the stones or the spine to charge JR & PR with anything. I believe he didn't want the bad publicity for Boulder, because Burke couldn't be charged but the parents certainly could have been. It would mean an ugly trial and a family even more devastated than they already had been. He chose not to charge. And every DA since then has maintained the same position. No one wants to be "that guy" who goes after JR and BR now that 20 years have gone by. And so justice for JonBenet will never happen here on God's green earth.

Hi Heymom!

I know that posters are passionate about the RDI and I respect that but I set aside my emotions when looking at any case. I use to do that myself many years ago and realized it clouded my judgment. That's just how I do it though, and really do respect others who believes the Ramseys are somehow involved. That is the main reason I rarely come to JonBenet's thread because I know differing opinions aren't well tolerated

Respectfully the viewpoint of worried about bad publicity doesn't make logical sense to me. Perhaps the truth really is none of the DAs involved had or have the evidence needed to prove their case. GJs also can become emotional especially when it concerns a child and that too can cloud their judgment at times Bad publicity for Boulder? Boulder was already made to look bumbling fools like they had Keystone cops on duty in this case. Bad publicity is all they were getting. I think it is more logical for the DAs who has all of the evidence to know they don't have a case. Do you really believe AH thought it would be less bad publicity for Boulder for the case to go unsolved all of these years? Prosecutors go through ugly trials all the time with many of the defendants being from the rich upper class like the Ramseys. Trials are held to produce evidence of the offender/s guilt. How ugly they get or don't is irrelevant.

There is nothing stopping the current DA from going to a GJ again to get a true bill against John Ramsey. The current DA has already said that NO ONE knows all of the evidence they have amassed to date in this case. I really don't think the current DA would say this case remains unsolved and ongoing if he had evidence Burke was the killer.

Juries come to their decision of guilt based on the evidence presented by the DA from the witness stand to prove their case BARD. How rich or poor they happen to be isn't evidence of anything. If any of these DAs had the actual evidence to prove any of the Ramseys guilty of course they would love to be THE ONE to bring the Ramseys down. The current DA says this is still an open unsolved case and they are still investigating this case and running down all tips they get. I have never heard of any DA too afraid to take anyone to trial if they had the concrete evidence needed to do so. Well except maybe the DOJ/FBI when it came to HC but that is an anomaly. Doctors, lawyers, high influential politicians, and millionaires have all been taken to trial before.

Yes, every DA since then who has all that was presented to the GJ has come to the same conclusion as AH. I have no reason to believe that any of the DAs over the years were spineless. It take courage to admit they don't have the evidence to prove their case. DAs are elected so they want to win all cases they take to trial. It is much more logical to me that all DAs over this case at different times knew/know they didn't/don't have the evidence to prove any case against any of the Ramseys. Getting a true bill from a GJ is far different than having the evidence needed to take it to trial to prove it in a court of law. The threshold for a GJ to true bill any case is a much lower standard. GJs do not have any power to charge anyone since that is left up solely to all DAs all across this country who have the sole burden to present facts and evidence that must meet the high standard of BARD. AH isn't the only DA who didn't take the GJs recommendation.

There isn't any evidence either that the Ramseys covered up for Burke nor is there any evidence I have seen that the GJ was told Burke was the killer of his little sister. The GJ could have thought they should be charged for not safeguarding the house with the alarm system on so the murderer wouldn't have had easy access to their home or thought having her in beauty contests caused a pedophile to stalk her in her own home. Sort of like parents being charged with endangerment and/or child abuse for leaving their firearm out giving their child access to it and they killed themselves with the parents weapon.

I believe the entrance into the Ramsey home by the intruder will remain a mystery. Just like it remains a mystery to this day how David Westerfield was able to access the two story Van Dam home in the middle of the night and being able to go up the flight of stairs in the dark to Danielle's bedroom and take her out without anyone hearing or seeing anything. He had never been inside of the Van Dam home before that night when he crept in as they were all asleep and kidnapped little Danielle from her bed. Everyone knows he was there but he didn't even leave one trace of himself behind that he had ever been there. What proved he was inside the home and kidnapped her was they found her handprint inside of his camper.

I don't have that pessimistic view about JonBenet receiving justice. I do think one day the murderer will slip up and they will be able to match his DNA profile to the one that the FBI has entered into CODIS. For all we know he may have committed prior crimes or crimes against children since JonBenet. There are literally thousands upon thousands of DNA samples collected in other cases that have not been entered into CODIS yet even though LE has had them in their evidence room for many many years. Cases much older than Jon Benet's have been solved 30-40 years later when finally a DNA sample from another case was entered into CODIS that linked/matched the DNA profile they needed on a decades old unsolved case/s. So I always have hope that one day this will be solved. The current DA also said they are continuing to test items of evidence and with forensics getting even more advanced every year, I think they will find further DNA on some of the evidence that matches the unknown male DNA profile that has already been entered into CODIS in JonBenet's case. For all we know they may have already discovered additional evidence linking the unknown male DNA profile since the current DA clearly states NO ONE will ever know all of the evidence they have obtained until it is in a court of law at a criminal trial. He sounds hopeful that one day her case will be finally solved. IMO.

 

[Ambitioned]

Hi Heymom!

Do you really believe AH thought it would be less bad publicity for Boulder for the case to go unsolved all of these years? Prosecutors go through ugly trials all the time with many of the defendants being from the rich upper class like the Ramseys. Trials are held to produce evidence of the offender/s guilt. How ugly they get or don't is irrelevant. .

It goes beyond bad publicity. AH was doing real estate deals with the Ramsey defense team. I personally think AH was crooked but JMO.

The indictment for alarm system or having her in beauty contests is a thought, but does not explain the other indictment for rendering assistance to a person.

As for the Van Dams, I am not judging their lifestyle but the dad testified he was smoking pot and in bed with one of his wife's friends the night she disappeared. The mom was out at a bar. When mom's out partying and dad's high and busy with someone else, it wouldn't be hard for a man to sneak in.

 

[Heymom]

Hi Heymom!

I know that posters are passionate about the RDI and I respect that but I set aside my emotions when looking at any case. I use to do that myself many years ago and realized it clouded my judgment. That's just how I do it though, and really do respect others who believes the Ramseys are somehow involved. That is the main reason I rarely come to JonBenet's thread because I know differing opinions aren't well tolerated

Respectfully the viewpoint of worried about bad publicity doesn't make logical sense to me. Perhaps the truth really is none of the DAs involved had or have the evidence needed to prove their case. GJs also can become emotional especially when it concerns a child and that too can cloud their judgment at times Bad publicity for Boulder? Boulder was already made to look bumbling fools like they had Keystone cops on duty in this case. Bad publicity is all they were getting. I think it is more logical for the DAs who has all of the evidence to know they don't have a case. Do you really believe AH thought it would be less bad publicity for Boulder for the case to go unsolved all of these years? Prosecutors go through ugly trials all the time with many of the defendants being from the rich upper class like the Ramseys. Trials are held to produce evidence of the offender/s guilt. How ugly they get or don't is irrelevant.

There is nothing stopping the current DA from going to a GJ again to get a true bill against John Ramsey. The current DA has already said that NO ONE knows all of the evidence they have amassed to date in this case. I really don't think the current DA would say this case remains unsolved and ongoing if he had evidence Burke was the killer.

Juries come to their decision of guilt based on the evidence presented by the DA from the witness stand to prove their case BARD. How rich or poor they happen to be isn't evidence of anything. If any of these DAs had the actual evidence to prove any of the Ramseys guilty of course they would love to be THE ONE to bring the Ramseys down. The current DA says this is still an open unsolved case and they are still investigating this case and running down all tips they get. I have never heard of any DA too afraid to take anyone to trial if they had the concrete evidence needed to do so. Well except maybe the DOJ/FBI when it came to HC but that is an anomaly. Doctors, lawyers, high influential politicians, and millionaires have all been taken to trial before.

Yes, every DA since then who has all that was presented to the GJ has come to the same conclusion as AH. I have no reason to believe that any of the DAs over the years were spineless. It take courage to admit they don't have the evidence to prove their case. DAs are elected so they want to win all cases they take to trial. It is much more logical to me that all DAs over this case at different times knew/know they didn't/don't have the evidence to prove any case against any of the Ramseys. Getting a true bill from a GJ is far different than having the evidence needed to take it to trial to prove it in a court of law. The threshold for a GJ to true bill any case is a much lower standard. GJs do not have any power to charge anyone since that is left up solely to all DAs all across this country who have the sole burden to present facts and evidence that must meet the high standard of BARD. AH isn't the only DA who didn't take the GJs recommendation.

There isn't any evidence either that the Ramseys covered up for Burke nor is there any evidence I have seen that the GJ was told Burke was the killer of his little sister. The GJ could have thought they should be charged for not safeguarding the house with the alarm system on so the murderer wouldn't have had easy access to their home or thought having her in beauty contests caused a pedophile to stalk her in her own home. Sort of like parents being charged with endangerment and/or child abuse for leaving their firearm out giving their child access to it and they killed themselves with the parents weapon.

I believe the entrance into the Ramsey home by the intruder will remain a mystery. Just like it remains a mystery to this day how David Westerfield was able to access the two story Van Dam home in the middle of the night and being able to go up the flight of stairs in the dark to Danielle's bedroom and take her out without anyone hearing or seeing anything. He had never been inside of the Van Dam home before that night when he crept in as they were all asleep and kidnapped little Danielle from her bed. Everyone knows he was there but he didn't even leave one trace of himself behind that he had ever been there. What proved he was inside the home and kidnapped her was they found her handprint inside of his camper.

I don't have that pessimistic view about JonBenet receiving justice. I do think one day the murderer will slip up and they will be able to match his DNA profile to the one that the FBI has entered into CODIS. For all we know he may have committed prior crimes or crimes against children since JonBenet. There are literally thousands upon thousands of DNA samples collected in other cases that have not been entered into CODIS yet even though LE has had them in their evidence room for many many years. Cases much older than Jon Benet's have been solved 30-40 years later when finally a DNA sample from another case was entered into CODIS that linked/matched the DNA profile they needed on a decades old unsolved case/s. So I always have hope that one day this will be solved. The current DA also said they are continuing to test items of evidence and with forensics getting even more advanced every year, I think they will find further DNA on some of the evidence that matches the unknown male DNA profile that has already been entered into CODIS in JonBenet's case. For all we know they may have already discovered additional evidence linking the unknown male DNA profile since the current DA clearly states NO ONE will ever know all of the evidence they have obtained until it is in a court of law at a criminal trial. He sounds hopeful that one day her case will be finally solved. IMO.

LISTEN CAREFULLY

THERE WAS NO INTRUDER!!

It is against the policy of this forum to suggest that there was an intruder.

:gaah:

 

[HarmonyE.]

There isn't any evidence either that the Ramseys covered up for Burke nor is there any evidence I have seen that the GJ was told Burke was the killer of his little sister. The GJ could have thought they should be charged for not safeguarding the house with the alarm system on so the murderer wouldn't have had easy access to their home or thought having her in beauty contests caused a pedophile to stalk her in her own home. Sort of like parents being charged with endangerment and/or child abuse for leaving their firearm out giving their child access to it and they killed themselves with the parents weapon.

Failing to use an alarm or putting a child in beauty pageants aren't criminal acts. At most, one could argue that were negligent acts or omissions on the part of the parents, but never criminal.

There is no doubt the grand jury thought Burke did it and his parents played a role in keeping her in a knowingly dangerous situation that ultimately led to her murder and that they helped cover up the crime.

(The Ramseys) [FONT=&quot]did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child’s life or health, which resulted in the death of JonBenét Ramsey, a child under the age of sixteen.

(The Ramseys) did [/FONT][FONT=&quot]unlawfully, knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person, with intent to hinder, delay and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

While it can be true that grand jury indictments aren't difficult for prosecutors to get, these are very, very specific allegations. The GJ did not just randomly yank them out of a hat. They almost certainly were based on factual information. Information we probably haven't seen the tip of.

 

[k-mac]

reading the last days posts on this thread has given me a new thought to process.
i have a hard time with the wood debris and the sexual assault meshing.
is it a possibility that the wooden paint brush handle was initially used as part of the clean up not staging or assault?
if the R's were trying to remove evidence of abuse or trauma they came upon, makes sense to me that maybe they wrapped a wipe or cloth around the handle and inserted it inside JBR ( shouldnt even be possible i know :-( ....) to remove any dna.
i can wear this scenario ?

 

[singularity]

Thanks for posting those Droll. Looks like I have some reading to do tonight.

I haven't read that yet obviously but if people think his answers were coached, it devalues his statements. Cant say it was coached and then use those coached words against him in the face of the evidence. Cant have it both ways.

what evidence is there that links him to the crime?

Not much at all which is why the doc had to skip over much of the case.

Those pictures of JonBenet dumped in the basement might have belonged to BR, they might be the smoking gun?



.

I certainly agree that those photographs are key. However, I doubt that a 9 year old is going to be infatuated to the extent of taking and/or collecting photographs of a girl. That is something that older boys/guys would do. If Burke was infatuated with her, he doesn't need a stack of photographs. He has easy access to her on a daily and possibly continuous basis. He "plays doctor" and even sleeps with her so why on earth would he need photographs?

One interesting question, which arises from Kolar's One person did it all theory, is how did the parents know JonBenet had been sexually assaulted if she had been cleaned up and partially staged by BR?

Interesting question indeed and its one of many questions that causes BDI to fall apart from the get go.



TeaTime....

BR pretended to be asleep and his parents pretended he was asleep despite him being heard on the 911 call and him admitting that he was awake that morning, listening to everything that was going on both before and after LE arrived.

This could be chalked up to the Ramseys not wanting him to get involved. Yeah he did admit to listening to everything that was going on, which is something he didn't have to do and wouldn't have done if he killed her.

BR admitted that he sneaked downstairs after everyone went to sleep and at the very time that JBR (according to the undigested pineapple found during her autopsy and the estimated time of death at 1:00am) would have eaten pineapple before her murder.

Obviously we don't know when she died or ate that pineapple. No one can possibly pinpoint the exact time he went down there. If this is some smoking gun, he never would have admitted doing it in the first place. Burke actually filled in a couple blanks and he was merely crucified for doing so. Unfortunately we wont be getting any more blanks filled in now.

BR admitted that he had HiTech boots, the same shoe type and size of the print found in the WC next to JBR's body.

His footprints were found in his house and in the basement/wine cellar? Why would this surprise you or anybody? Hell, he had a playroom down there.

BR's tDNA was found on the nightgown which was wrapped around JBR's body and which had allegedly come straight from the clothes dryer.

THis means nothing. These two played together and slept together. Obviously tDNA is to be expected.

BR's reaction to the crime scene photo of the bowl of pineapple with his prints on it. You have to watch it to understand his disassociation.

I've watched it and I don't see it as some smoking gun.

BR was heard talking to DS about manual versus ligature strangulation just days after JBR was murdered and at a time when he allegedly had not learned any details of the scene.

A 9 year old boy talked to his friend about his sister's murder. There's nothing surprising about that. Had he NOT talked to anyone about it, it would be much more alarming.

BR put the flashlight in JR's hands late that night, in his bedroom.

I agree the flashlight thing is interesting but this puts John in more hot water than Burke. Why is a grown man using a flashlight to go room to room in a house full of lights? Its another layer of their dysfunction.

BR is known to have engaged in poop smearing, saving and poop was found smeared on the candy in JBR's bedroom and a pair of pajama bottoms, too big for JBR, which had poop smears in them was found in her bedroom.

This household's issue with poop is another layer of dysfunction. As we've been over before, none of this poop was ever tested and cant be sourced to him.



Murderer Servant....

This theory places the crime scene to be basement ,...

Its a bit more believable than bashing her head over a pineapple snack. That doesn't come close to passing a smell test.



OceanBlueEyes...

Funny to say this to someone with 20k posts but you should post more. I definitely don't believe in IDI but the rest of that was solid and is needed in this section.

 

[PositiveLight]

I played Pooh Sticks all the time as a kid. This isn't Pooh Sticks.

This is Burke's, "LEAF ME ALONE! I'm not having any of this!"

I see what you did there!:silly:

 

[k-mac]

There isn't any evidence either that the Ramseys covered up for Burke nor is there any evidence I have seen that the GJ was told Burke was the killer of his little sister. .

really??
the collective probability on its own without evidence (which imo is plenty ) against BR and PR is huge and undeniable to RDI.

but hey if evidence is key for you.... IDI theory has a whole lot less evidence to back it up than RDI.

and if all you got is the window (disproven) and the dna (disproven) you need to get back to the drawing board. :gaah:

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave, you might have seen it before, but... In my simplistic theory, BDI all - head bash, molestation, and strangulation - then he either went on to bed or maybe PR caught him with the body and sent him off to bed while she conjured up the cover-up, then did the staging (wrist ties, tape to mouth) and the undoing (placement in the WR with blankets), then wrote the RN, and then she called out to JR. Nothing I've seen tells me JR was close enough to either PR or BR to cover for either of them.

Yes, I had heard that, but I was just looking to do some fine-tuning.