ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[KatieLiz]

I've shown by an example case in Canada, that it is quite possible for two adults to each truly believe a child is with the other adult. I can probably post more examples.
Translating to the DK case, this means that the statements by the father and the statements by the mother that they each believed the child remained with the GGP, and the statements by the GGP that he genuinely assumed the child had walked off to go to the parents, are in my opinion true statements.

But those are the ORIGINAL statements. They can be disregarded now that Jessics has changed the narrative and says GGP saw him playing on the ridge and then he disappeared.

 

[koios]

I'm puzzled by your logic on this. The "not under the watch of either parent" commenced when they went off fishing & was never apparently resumed - it was one continuous period.

One continuous period which I subdivide by splitting it at the time the search began into two concurrent sections, to make the point (MOO) that the critical event (whatever it was) could have happened sometime well into in the second part of that continuous period.

 

[KatieLiz]

But can anyone post a video in which one of the adults says "x happened" and a later video in which that same adult says "x did not happen"?

We do not need to back up what LE and Klein have said and what is apparent to anyone following along. They are the ones with the evidence and know FAR more than you or I.

I don't care to convince anyone. Believe whatever people want to believe. It is LE who will solve this case and I trust that. If I had the time I could sit here and write out the numerous inconsistancies for you, but for the past several weeks we have already countered these ridiculous posts with fact after fact and been ignored. Klein and LE have pointed out the inconsistancies that they can, but they have also made reference to the (how many? 9? 11?) numerous failed, or inconsistant, polygraphs and the ever changing stories during those polys. There is SO MUCH we don't know in this case, and whatever info LE knows is enough that these people are STILL suspects.

Certain people here choose to bait and bait and then never answer direct questions and choose to just simply not respond when proved wrong, repeatedly. The amount of wasted time here in the past month seems literally insane to me.

Instead of concocting alibis and possible scenarios to exonerate the parents (some of which they haven't even tried to use themselves), let's take a look at the reality of the situation and these adults behaviour.

I'm starting to think Trina is making posts here, because I can't think of another grown adult on this planet who could try to make excuses for Jessica, Vernal, or their behaviours.

 

[TxJan1971]

Klein Investigations should have a read of this article about phone bars.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/what-do-the-bars-on-your-smartphone-mean-we-asked-an-expert/

Klein clearly hasn't considered that JA may have spent much longer on the phone to the 911 operator than VK.

Have you considered sharing your research with Sheriff Penner since he is leading this investigation? Besides, people don't like Klein's tactics and would diss him even if he did read it and gave his opinion one way or another. What if that article you found for Klein could hold invaluable information for Penner that just might break this cold case wide open? I'm sure Penner would be deeply appreciative of any help he can get at this point! He may just forward that information immediately to the FBI so he can help bring them up to speed on phone bar information from an expert. It's worth a shot...

 

[KatieLiz]

I knew nothing about polygraphs until looking at this case, but since then I have studied them a little.
In my opinion something like "are you going to tell us the truth in this interview?" is not a "control" question, it is a non-control question.

I think the professionals can handle it. They've known about polys a lot longer than "until looking at this case." Let's trust that the FBI polygraph would be especially accurate.

 

[Alii]

In the Nate Eaton interview, VDK and J are asked "who discovered him missing first?" to which Jessica replies clearly " we BOTH did". Later in another interview she says she stayed at the bank for 5 mins or so, while VDK went up BY HIMSELF and discovered Baby DeOrr was missing.

Does that fit the criteria for demonstrating a changing story by one of the suspects?

 

[desert-blue]

I would tend to believe Bowerman's version of GGP's account over any of the parents' accounts of GGP's role, but in all honesty, I think all of them are lying (not Bowerman - he's just repeating what he's been told). Trina has said that her father is fine mentally so why in heaven's name has he not spoken ONE TIME publicly about what went on up there????? Where is his account? Why has he remained completely silent? Why isn't he telling everyone what happened and how he didn't know he was supposed to be watching DeOrr or how he saw DeOrr walk towards the creek or how he thought DeOrr was following his parents or how he saw DeOrr playing with his shoes or how he gave DeOrr candy or how DeOrr was sitting by the fire or whatever other stories we've been fed? Maybe because it's all a big pot of lies and he knows if he opens his mouth he might say something wrong and everything will blow up in his face. I wish the reporters would go to his door and start questioning him like they did Isaac. Why haven't they? You'd think he'd want to help out and clear up some of the confusion and provide credibility to the parents' stories and just do whatever possible to help find his great-grandson. But no, just silence.

 

[bluesneakers]

I would tend to believe Bowerman's version of GGP's account over any of the parents' accounts of GGP's role, but in all honesty, I think all of them are lying (not Bowerman - he's just repeating what he's been told). Trina has said that her father is fine mentally so why in heaven's name has he not spoken ONE TIME publicly about what went on up there????? Where is his account? Why has he remained completely silent? Why isn't he telling everyone what happened and how he didn't know he was supposed to be watching DeOrr or how he saw DeOrr walk towards the creek or how he thought DeOrr was following his parents or how he saw DeOrr playing with his shoes or how he gave DeOrr candy or how DeOrr was sitting by the fire or whatever other stories we've been fed? Maybe because it's all a big pot of lies and he knows if he opens his mouth he might say something wrong and everything will blow up in his face. I wish the reporters would go to his door and start questioning him like they did Isaac. Why haven't they? You'd think he'd want to help out and clear up some of the confusion and provide credibility to the parents' stories and just do whatever possible to help find his great-grandson. But no, just silence.

Me too.

 

[KatieLiz]

That's funny, I thought VDK told us baby Deorr was "playing with Grandpa"

July 12, 2015
Interview with Nate

VDK: He was playing with Grandpa

08:47
VDK: (interrupts Nate)
He…He was playing with…He was

Oh TxJan thank you, I hope you know your work is appreciated. Now, can you just stay on all the time to contradict the nonsense posts?? Lol

 

[KatieLiz]

Basically it seems they're ALL liars. They're ALL hiding something. I didn't want to believe Isaac or Trina knew anything bad but I'm now more doubtful.

The Sheriff emphatically says they lied.
The FBI must agree that they lied or the police wouldn't have said it.
The lie detector tests confirmed they lied.
PI #1, hired by the family, quit because he couldn't cope with any more lies.
PI #2, hired by the family, totally believes they are lying liars who lied.

None of Jessica's friends are speaking out, where are the "shes such a great mom" posts? None of them turned up for the October search, in fact NOBODY except Jess & Trina turned up for that search. Why? Why are none of their friends and extended family supporting them?

Why?

Because they don't believe them either.

Lying liars who lie.

Lmao


And yes... why does Jess have less than 50 friends left on her FB and her own sister has removed her months ago?? Hmm..

 

[KatieLiz]

What was the time lapse between IR leaving the parents at the first fishing hole & JA, out of the corner of her right eye, seeing IR fishing downstream from her spot on the island?

Well considering J and V's original statement is that hey were gone only, what, 10 minutes? So YOU tell ME how much time could have possibly passed? 5 mins max? According to the suspects timeline. Remember, IR has no vehicle and no way to hide Deorr in this time. And in 15 months none of he searchers have found him?? Seems more likely to me that Bigfoot Got Deorr than IR acting alone.

 

[misty48]

Have you considered sharing your research with Sheriff Penner since he is leading this investigation? Besides, people don't like Klein's tactics and would diss him even if he did read it and gave his opinion one way or another. What if that article you found for Klein could hold invaluable information for Penner that just might break this cold case wide open? I'm sure Penner would be deeply appreciative of any help he can get at this point! He may just forward that information immediately to the FBI so he can help bring them up to speed on phone bar information from an expert. It's worth a shot...

Did the FBI or LE conduct an analysis using VDK's own cell phone? Klein clearly states that his team used their own equipment to test the signal, which according to the aritcle, fails to prove that VDK was untruthful.

 

[misty48]

Well considering J and V's original statement is that hey were gone only, what, 10 minutes? So YOU tell ME how much time could have possibly passed? 5 mins max? According to the suspects timeline. Remember, IR has no vehicle and no way to hide Deorr in this time. And in 15 months none of he searchers have found him?? Seems more likely to me that Bigfoot Got Deorr than IR acting alone.

In 5 or 10 minutes, would it have been possible to conceal a child's body in the immediate vicinity out of sight during a quick search, facilitating later relocation while others are elsewhere searching?There was a period of over an hour between the 911 call & the first LE officers arriving, plus the time initially spent searching.

 

[KatieLiz]

Klein Investigations should have a read of this article about phone bars.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/what-do-the-bars-on-your-smartphone-mean-we-asked-an-expert/

Klein clearly hasn't considered that JA may have spent much longer on the phone to the 911 operator than VK.

You do realize they would have all the phone records right? They would know the duration of the calls and the location the calls were made from. These aren't amateurs, they aren't stupid. We arent "pointing out" new things and they're suddenly gonna go "Duh, why didn't we think of that?" Obviously if J was on with 911 for 20 mins or more they would factor that in. But what they are instead saying is the the calls were made 2 mins apart, supposedly 1.5 miles apart, yet they are heard talking to each other in the background. Thats more inctiminating than Js statement about emptying her pockets into the truck. Im pretty sure LE and Klein know how to do the jobs they have done their entire professional careers....

 

[TxJan1971]

I would tend to believe Bowerman's version of GGP's account over any of the parents' accounts of GGP's role, but in all honesty, I think all of them are lying (not Bowerman - he's just repeating what he's been told). Trina has said that her father is fine mentally so why in heaven's name has he not spoken ONE TIME publicly about what went on up there????? Where is his account? Why has he remained completely silent? Why isn't he telling everyone what happened and how he didn't know he was supposed to be watching DeOrr or how he saw DeOrr walk towards the creek or how he thought DeOrr was following his parents or how he saw DeOrr playing with his shoes or how he gave DeOrr candy or how DeOrr was sitting by the fire or whatever other stories we've been fed? Maybe because it's all a big pot of lies and he knows if he opens his mouth he might say something wrong and everything will blow up in his face. I wish the reporters would go to his door and start questioning him like they did Isaac. Why haven't they? You'd think he'd want to help out and clear up some of the confusion and provide credibility to the parents' stories and just do whatever possible to help find his great-grandson. But no, just silence.

I agree. But what if GGP lied to Bowerman?

Should we consider this:

Q: When and where was this picture taken? Has it been established beyond doubt that DeOrr was physically alive and well at timber creek on the morning of July 10th? What exactly was baby DeOrr doing when IR reports that he saw him at 1:00pm on July 10th? We have heard everything from getting ready for a nap, playing near the campsite with his hot wheel car, and sitting in a chair near the fire eating a candybar. Also, is grandpa too infirm to give a witness statement regarding baby DeOrr's presence at the campsite on July 10th at 1:00pm?

Klein Investigations and Consulting Lot's questions. No comment of the details. The grandfather did give 4 statements. Again - it depends on which statement you want to believe.

~~~
So "WHICH" of the four GGP statements that Klein tells us about ^^^ was the one Bowerman revealed to us about what GGP said???? Who to believe?

 

[TxJan1971]

Oh TxJan thank you, I hope you know your work is appreciated. Now, can you just stay on all the time to contradict the nonsense posts?? Lol

Thanks! I just like to present that which I know (or recall) in order to help try and keep things factual vs hearsay or rumor. I also am a firm believer that if someone doesn't say something directly, we can't say it for them. If I can prevent that by sharing something I have, I'm happy to do so!!!

 

[koios]

IMO we do not know with 100% certainty (or even 97% or 50% for that matter) where VDK was or where JMA was after they found out their child was missing or what they were doing - or whether or not they were actually together, or apart, at any time during this camping trip and resultant alleged disappearance. For all we know, they could have all been partying, drinking, sleeping, swimming, playing cards, fishing, or whatever. Remember the only four people there were all named suspects (three moreso than IR), they all failed their polys about what happened to baby Deorr and where he is, so it's very difficult for me to believe anything they state without evidence to prove it. Fifteen long months after the fact, none of us know what actually occurred that day and preceding days.

You allege they were apart while VDK hauled down the road to get a signal, yet Klein shares this about whether or not they were ever actually "apart" as you allege:

KLEIN RELEASE – VDK was 1.5 miles away – Jess emptied her pockets in VDK’s truck

Klein Investigations and Consulting
This afternoon investigators are releasing one of the areas of discrepancy in the written statements given by the two suspects in the missing child case - Deorr Kunz, Jr. This is one of many discrepancies between witness statements and actual 911 recordings as well as other evidence. Investigators have been able to enhance the audio background - to which during the 911 call one suspect is talking to the other - when the statement says he is over 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. As well one suspect says that he was 1.5 miles away in his truck - however - the other suspect says that she put contents from her pockets into the truck after she hung up with 911. In the time distance study it takes over 16 minutes to travel from where the suspect says he got cell phone service to the camp where the child went missing. The two 911 calls were made at 2:36 by the female and 2:38 by the male.

VDK Statement:
Dirt road looking at my phone till I seen I had 2 bars of 3 g service. I slammed on the brakes. I was about 1.5 miles from camp. I call 911 and told them I lost my son but couldn’t remember the name of where I was. I

Jessica Statement:
…called 911. I told the dispatcher what was going on and she told me my husband was on the other line with them. When I was done talking to her I took everything out of my pocket and threw them in Deorr’s truck on the passenger seat

(Question: How could she throw them in Deorr’s truck if he was 1.5 miles from camp and she was "searching back at camp?")

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/videos/1041693925913191/


Q: Ok just to be clear and make sure im not confused...this appears that vernal was not down the road getting cell service..he was actually still at the camp with jessica when she made the call. Correct?

Klein Investigations and Consulting All we can say is what they told us - and the investigators that day. Vernal says he was 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. Jessica says that she made the 911 call at the camp then threw her stuff in the front of Vernal's truck. The first call was at 2:36 p from Jessica to 911. The second was 2:38 from Vernal to 911. Vernal can be heard in the background of Jessica's 911 call. Jessica says that after she hung up she threw her contents of her pockets into Vernal's truck. It takes 16 minutes to get back to the camp from where Vernal says he was. All we can do is repeat and timeline their testimony and compare to the recordings. In our cell study this past weekend - both Jessica and Vernal had the same cell company - to which they both could get a cell signal out. We were clearly with our equipment able to garner 2.9 informational and cell signal out.

To drive 1.5 miles back to the campsite from where he made his call would take only 3 minutes (30mph), or 2.25 minutes (40mph).
Or if the distance was 0.5 miles (source first tv interview), it would take 1 minute ( 30mph) or 0.75 minutes (40mph).
I think that before flagging the "put stuff in truck after she phoned" as a definite discrepancy, it is relevant to consider the brevity of that travel time.
Also it's possible (I don't know) that V's call may have finished before J's call finished, if so he would be driving back while she was still on phone?

 

[katydid23]

In the Nate Eaton interview, VDK and J are asked "who discovered him missing first?" to which Jessica replies clearly " we BOTH did". Later in another interview she says she stayed at the bank for 5 mins or so, while VDK went up BY HIMSELF and discovered Baby DeOrr was missing.

Does that fit the criteria for demonstrating a changing story by one of the suspects?

Good example.

And they originally said they went 'exploring' and left the baby with his great grandfather,[ by the fire pit, on oxygen...]

But recently they said they went FISHING when they left the baby with GGP....which was never said in the beginning.

 

[The Apparition]

One continuous period which I subdivide by splitting it at the time the search began into two concurrent sections, to make the point (MOO) that the critical event (whatever it was) could have happened sometime well into in the second part of that continuous period.

Nice! Did you get part of this from a Stephen Hawking article? I feel like I should get my reading glasses, robe, pipe, and a snifter of brandy when I read it.

Personally I like to divide things into simpler "sections". Before Deorr died and after he died and was hidden, cuts down on the unnecessary mental clutter.

 

[KatieLiz]

I would tend to believe Bowerman's version of GGP's account over any of the parents' accounts of GGP's role, but in all honesty, I think all of them are lying (not Bowerman - he's just repeating what he's been told). Trina has said that her father is fine mentally so why in heaven's name has he not spoken ONE TIME publicly about what went on up there????? Where is his account? Why has he remained completely silent? Why isn't he telling everyone what happened and how he didn't know he was supposed to be watching DeOrr or how he saw DeOrr walk towards the creek or how he thought DeOrr was following his parents or how he saw DeOrr playing with his shoes or how he gave DeOrr candy or how DeOrr was sitting by the fire or whatever other stories we've been fed? Maybe because it's all a big pot of lies and he knows if he opens his mouth he might say something wrong and everything will blow up in his face. I wish the reporters would go to his door and start questioning him like they did Isaac. Why haven't they? You'd think he'd want to help out and clear up some of the confusion and provide credibility to the parents' stories and just do whatever possible to help find his great-grandson. But no, just silence.

Yep, I'll give the family credit on this one they were smart enough to keep GGP put of the media limelight. Could you imagine Nate or Chelsea questioning GGP for him to respond "what's done is done. Are we having a funeral?"

No no, can't risk that kind of slip up in public.