ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[misty48]

You do realize they would have all the phone records right? They would know the duration of the calls and the location the calls were made from. These aren't amateurs, they aren't stupid. We arent "pointing out" new things and they're suddenly gonna go "Duh, why didn't we think of that?" Obviously if J was on with 911 for 20 mins or more they would factor that in. But what they are instead saying is the the calls were made 2 mins apart, supposedly 1.5 miles apart, yet they are heard talking to each other in the background. Thats more inctiminating than Js statement about emptying her pockets into the truck. Im pretty sure LE and Klein know how to do the jobs they have done their entire professional careers....

AFAIK they were both recorded speaking to separate 911 operators at the same time, not to each other. Perhaps you could direct me to the part in the phone recording which proves otherwise.
I am not aware that anyone has released details of the duration of JA's call to 911.
Can anyone explain why it would take 16 mins to travel 1'5 miles on that particular road - slower than an average running speed?

 

[KatieLiz]

In 5 or 10 minutes, would it have been possible to conceal a child's body in the immediate vicinity out of sight during a quick search, facilitating later relocation while others are elsewhere searching?There was a period of over an hour between the 911 call & the first LE officers arriving, plus the time initially spent searching.

What dont you understand? He didn't have a vehicle. At most he had 1 hour. So you maintain that with J and V on one side of him and GGP on the other, IR killed and hid Deorr in under 5 mins. Then he grabs his fishing rod and casually stars to fish while.waiting for J and V to tragically discover their.missing toddler?

Then the search begins. And you maintain that in 1 hour IR was able to dispose of this child, on foot, so well that LE cant find him still? Oh and he also snuck a shovel AND a dead 2 year old away without the other 3 adults noticing? Wow how high were the other 3 not to notice?

So you think that in one hour he could walk or run 30 mins one direction, bury him instantly, and run back 30 mins and not be noticed and not be sweating and out of breath or have blood on him or dirt from digging? He could never dig a hole in 1 hour big enough to fit Deorr and remain hidden from searchers and dogs anyways.

This argument is completely implausible. NEXT!

 

[KatieLiz]

Thanks! I just like to present that which I know (or recall) in order to help try and keep things factual vs hearsay or rumor. I also am a firm believer that if someone doesn't say something directly, we can't say it for them. If I can prevent that by sharing something I have, I'm happy to do so!!!

Well thank you. It's been greatly needed on this thread for a few weeks. People seem to be making up new alibis for J and V daily...

 

[katydid23]

I'm totally with you!! I was just trying to clarify that we haven't really heard from GGP himself as to his specific story of the events that begin with what occurred on the way TO the campground up until after LE/SAR arrived. What is his version of events. We hear bits/pieces relayed via Bowerman, and we hear it in several Klein clips but I'm also cognizant that stories are ever changing, and who is to say that what he told Bowerman is actually what he would tell you or I or Klein today? Has his story evolved or changed at all? If I'm not mistaken, although it was expected, he did fail his polygraph test as well.

I do have the transcripts from Tricia's Radio shows if you need any of that reposted here. Just let me know!

I guess there is a new wrinkle in the updated software here. I was going to bite the bullet and go way back in my very old posts on this thread to find out the source of that statement by GGP.
I am about 95% certain that it was stated that GGP saw the baby heading towards the embankment before he 'vanished' into thin air. I remember because many of us were so ANGRY that a grandparent would see a toddler going towards a creek and just shrug and assume it was all fine.

But NOW, after the update, I see no archives of old posts we made. There used to be hundreds of past posts archived in our profile page. but all I can find now of mine are the past 11 posts, all from today. Are all of our old posts gone now??? OR is there a new way of archiving that I have not figured out?

 

[koios]

"In the time distance study it takes over 16 minutes to travel from where the suspect says he got cell phone service to the camp"
To get 16 minutes out of 1.5 miles one would have to assume an average speed of only 5.6 mph which is perhaps not a realistic estimate for the maximum speed of a truck on that track?

 

[KatieLiz]

AFAIK they were both recorded speaking to separate 911 operators at the same time, not to each other. Perhaps you could direct me to the part in the phone recording which proves otherwise.
I am not aware that anyone has released details of the duration of JA's call to 911.
Can anyone explain why it would take 16 mins to travel 1'5 miles on that particular road - slower than an average running speed?

I will draw your attention to TxJan's post #652- I have snipped the important part and bolded below... I'll be waiting for your rebuttal.


"KLEIN RELEASE – VDK was 1.5 miles away – Jess emptied her pockets in VDK’s truck

Klein Investigations and Consulting
This afternoon investigators are releasing one of the areas of discrepancy in the written statements given by the two suspects in the missing child case - Deorr Kunz, Jr. This is one of many discrepancies between witness statements and actual 911 recordings as well as other evidence. Investigators have been able to enhance the audio background - to which during the 911 call one suspect is talking to the other - when the statement says he is over 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. As well one suspect says that he was 1.5 miles away in his truck - however - the other suspect says that she put contents from her pockets into the truck after she hung up with 911. In the time distance study it takes over 16 minutes to travel from where the suspect says he got cell phone service to the camp where the child went missing. The two 911 calls were made at 2:36 by the female and 2:38 by the male."


Also wanting to add you keep saying you haven't seen them release certain details. I'm not sure what country you live in, but it's surprising that we know as much as we do in this case. The details you question are details that investigators will guard closely until trial. The evidence of the time distance studies and the phone call durations will be what makes or breaks this case. So don't hold your breath on those being released anytime soon...

 

[KatieLiz]

I guess there is a new wrinkle in the updated software here. I was going to bite the bullet and go way back in my very old posts on this thread to find out the source of that statement by GGP.
I am about 95% certain that it was stated that GGP saw the baby heading towards the embankment before he 'vanished' into thin air. I remember because many of us were so ANGRY that a grandparent would see a toddler going towards a creek and just shrug and assume it was all fine.

But NOW, after the update, I see no archives of old posts we made. There used to be hundreds of past posts archived in our profile page. but all I can find now of mine are the past 11 posts, all from today. Are all of our old posts gone now??? OR is there a new way of archiving that I have not figured out?

I noticed that too. Only 11.

 

[The Apparition]

I would tend to believe Bowerman's version of GGP's account over any of the parents' accounts of GGP's role, but in all honesty, I think all of them are lying (not Bowerman - he's just repeating what he's been told). Trina has said that her father is fine mentally so why in heaven's name has he not spoken ONE TIME publicly about what went on up there????? Where is his account? Why has he remained completely silent? Why isn't he telling everyone what happened and how he didn't know he was supposed to be watching DeOrr or how he saw DeOrr walk towards the creek or how he thought DeOrr was following his parents or how he saw DeOrr playing with his shoes or how he gave DeOrr candy or how DeOrr was sitting by the fire or whatever other stories we've been fed? Maybe because it's all a big pot of lies and he knows if he opens his mouth he might say something wrong and everything will blow up in his face. I wish the reporters would go to his door and start questioning him like they did Isaac. Why haven't they? You'd think he'd want to help out and clear up some of the confusion and provide credibility to the parents' stories and just do whatever possible to help find his great-grandson. But no, just silence.

Excellent points as usual desert-blue. I would be fine if they gave the old guy a little warning though, I don't want to have to see another naked behind the door interview. Seriously though GGP said it himself during a Klein interview when he said something like he might need to get a lawyer soon. He is absolutely doing the right thing for himself by shutting up and staying away because he probably can't follow the web of lies and would just come across more guilty if he spoke. To be honest Vernal and Jessica are having a hard time following the lies they craft so GGP would probably have to bring cue cards to an interview.

 

[misty48]

I will draw your attention to TxJan's post #652- I have snipped the important part and bolded below... I'll be waiting for your rebuttal.


"KLEIN RELEASE – VDK was 1.5 miles away – Jess emptied her pockets in VDK’s truck

Klein Investigations and Consulting
This afternoon investigators are releasing one of the areas of discrepancy in the written statements given by the two suspects in the missing child case - Deorr Kunz, Jr. This is one of many discrepancies between witness statements and actual 911 recordings as well as other evidence. Investigators have been able to enhance the audio background - to which during the 911 call one suspect is talking to the other - when the statement says he is over 1.5 miles away trying to find cell service. As well one suspect says that he was 1.5 miles away in his truck - however - the other suspect says that she put contents from her pockets into the truck after she hung up with 911. In the time distance study it takes over 16 minutes to travel from where the suspect says he got cell phone service to the camp where the child went missing. The two 911 calls were made at 2:36 by the female and 2:38 by the male."


Also wanting to add you keep saying you haven't seen them release certain details. I'm not sure what country you live in, but it's surprising that we know as much as we do in this case. The details you question are details that investigators will guard closely until trial. The evidence of the time distance studies and the phone call durations will be what makes or breaks this case. So don't hold your breath on those being released anytime soon...

So the investigators have enhanced VDK's 911 call but have not released this particular audio to the public - is that the correct interpretation?

 

[misty48]

"In the time distance study it takes over 16 minutes to travel from where the suspect says he got cell phone service to the camp"
To get 16 minutes out of 1.5 miles one would have to assume an average speed of only 5.6 mph which is perhaps not a realistic estimate for the maximum speed of a truck on that track?

If the PI says it's true then it must be true. "Brick batting a head wall against your" here, Koios

 

[The Apparition]

To drive 1.5 miles back to the campsite from where he made his call would take only 3 minutes (30mph), or 2.25 minutes (40mph).
Or if the distance was 0.5 miles (source first tv interview), it would take 1 minute ( 30mph) or 0.75 minutes (40mph).
I think that before flagging the "put stuff in truck after she phoned" as a definite discrepancy, it is relevant to consider the brevity of that travel time.
Also it's possible (I don't know) that V's call may have finished before J's call finished, if so he would be driving back while she was still on phone?

You are aware that numerous sources have described the road as deeply rutted, and filled with rocks. I read more than once the road was passable at about 15 mph with a truck, so as is often the case you are presenting scenarios that are not possible.

 

[koios]

In the Nate Eaton interview, VDK and J are asked "who discovered him missing first?" to which Jessica replies clearly " we BOTH did". Later in another interview she says she stayed at the bank for 5 mins or so, while VDK went up BY HIMSELF and discovered Baby DeOrr was missing.

Does that fit the criteria for demonstrating a changing story by one of the suspects?

When she says "We both did" she is referring them both, after searching for 20 minutes, realising that he was not there in the area of the campground.
Source 5:14 https://youtu.be/mwM1oG3z358

 

[TxJan1971]

So the investigators have enhanced VDK's 911 call but have not released this particular audio to the public - is that the correct interpretation?

I would like to refer you back to Klein since he is the one that made/provided the statement. He has the answers you seek. I am the messenger. You should have the exact same information that I do as far as what Klein has released thus far.

Furthermore, there is a statement available over in the media thread (transcription) where Bowerman talks about why he is not releasing VDK's tape. You can follow up there for his statement.

 

[KatieLiz]

So the investigators have enhanced VDK's 911 call but have not released this particular audio to the public - is that the correct interpretation?

Yes. That appears to be what Klein is saying. But you need to remember they aren't obligated to release ANYTHING to the public. They aren't going to release the incriminating evidence that will be saved for trial.

 

[KatieLiz]

When she says "We both did" she is referring them both, after searching for 20 minutes, realising that he was not there in the area of the campground.
Source 5:14 https://youtu.be/mwM1oG3z358

How do you know that's what she is referring to? She's incredibly vague. You are making an assumption.

 

[TxJan1971]

If the PI says it's true then it must be true. "Brick batting a head wall against your" here, Koios

BBM

What happens if Bowerman agrees with Klein and says it's true - then must it be true?
What happens if Vilt agrees with Bowerman who agrees with Klein - then must it be true?
What happens if Bonneville agrees with Vilt who agrees with Bowerman who agrees with Klein - then must it be true?
What happens if the FBI agrees with Bonneville who agrees with Vilt who agrees with Bowerman who agrees with Klein - then must it be true?

Are all of them right? Or are all of them wrong and the named suspects are right!?

Time will tell...

 

[koios]

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/
J's 911 call lasts 4minutes 37seconds. In the background at about 2:30 in the recording another operator ends V's 911 call by saying "we'll call you with any more questions ok", so V's call possibly ends about 2 minutes before J's call ends. Therefore MOO it is possible that V arrives back at the campground soon after (or even as) J finishes her call. Thanks to Misty48's idea to check what times the 2 calls ended.

 

[Alii]

That makes no sense. The question was clear.
NE: who discovered him missing FIRST? It is unambiguous.

 

[KatieLiz]

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/
J's 911 call lasts 4minutes 37seconds. In the background at about 2:30 in the recording another operator ends V's 911 call by saying "we'll call you with any more questions ok", so V's call possibly ends about 2 minutes before J's call ends. Therefore MOO it is possible that V arrives back at the campground soon after (or even as) J finishes her call. Thanks to Misty48's idea to check what times the 2 calls ended.

But the investigators have used technology you don't possess to make this determination. If they believed it was possible for VDK to have returned they would have checked that out before releasing the info.

Jessicas call was made from 2:36 until between 2:40 and 2:41. Vernal's call was made at 2:38 from supposedly 1.5 miles down an incredibly rough road. Even if his 911 call lasted only 1 second, it would be impossible for him to be back at the campsite by 2:40, 2 minutes after he dials 911 from 1.5 miles away. No. Impossible.

We also don't know at what point during J's call they isolated this background conversation. Was it before Vernal called 911? Immediately after he hung up? Or right at the very end before J hangs up?

Although, I don't think any of those times would change the fact he physically couldn't have teleported and he surely didn't drive that 1.5 mile stretch in under one minute.

 

[TxJan1971]

I guess there is a new wrinkle in the updated software here. I was going to bite the bullet and go way back in my very old posts on this thread to find out the source of that statement by GGP.
I am about 95% certain that it was stated that GGP saw the baby heading towards the embankment before he 'vanished' into thin air. I remember because many of us were so ANGRY that a grandparent would see a toddler going towards a creek and just shrug and assume it was all fine.

But NOW, after the update, I see no archives of old posts we made. There used to be hundreds of past posts archived in our profile page. but all I can find now of mine are the past 11 posts, all from today. Are all of our old posts gone now??? OR is there a new way of archiving that I have not figured out?

BBM
I know which statement you are referring to and am looking for that specific one - but here's a similar one. When I find the one we're thinking of, I'll add it or post it.


The parents claimed the boy disappeared when the couple and the male friend went on a short hike to fish a creek next to the spot where they had set up at Timber Creek Campground. After showing the couple to the creek, the friend split off to fish a separate section of the water. Kunz and Mitchell later told authorities they thought their son was with the grandfather and the grandfather later said he saw the boy trailing after the trio of adults.

http://www.postregister.com/article...est/2016/06/25/heavy-hearts-search-continues#