Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #11

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I think we need to get copies of the trial transcripts. ASAP.

ETA:

I accept the jurors' finding. I don't know exactly what they are and I'm not sure I want to know however some aspects of this case 'do not compute'.
 
Agreed. If the trial had made sense, if key evidence had been considered by the jury, I think i would more readily accept a not guilty verdict. It's those lingering questions that leave one questioning whether justice has been done. Like how Warriena managed to climb over the balcony in a few seconds, leaving only one hand print, the timing of the recording and what witnesses saw (what actually happened during the time (was it a minute?) they were on the balcony and she was screaming "no" in the most terrified voice imaginable), the mystery object removed from the scene, what was done to Warriena's vagina to hurt it, why Warriena could hardly talk in the recording, why someone drew a chalk outline of a body below the balcony BEFORE the incident, why the recording sounded scripted and whether its verbal description of events in any way matched what was actually physically happening. It seems to me that none of these pieces of the puzzle were put together in the trial. At this point, given that he is now a free man and his supporters feel he is an unjustly accused, innocent man, perhaps it is time he answered these questions in the medium where he feels comfortable opening up, social media. Only he has the answers and if there are concerns people may doubt the verdict, surely it would be best to clear the air?

Anyway, hopefully the coroner will shed light on all of this and the verdict will then make sense to those who weren't in the courtroom.
 
You cant quantify it numerically. Conviction can only occur when their is no doubt. If doubt exists, it is not guilty. Always. American law is not Australian law.
<rsbm>

The concept of beyond a reasonable doubt is much more complex than you convey. Even judges are limited in how they instruct the jury on their understanding of what constitutes reasonable doubt.

Beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean beyond ALL doubt and absolute certainty is not required.

The following is from Australia's Supreme Court of the Northern Territory:

From:
http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/media/documents/Beyond_Reasonable_Doubt.pdf


96.

AS to an explanation should a jury seek clarification, if the current direction remains unchanged, I favour permitting trial Judges to provide an explanation which includes the following:

It is for the jury to say whether a doubt is reasonable

Absolute certainty is not required. The Crown does not have to prove guilt beyond all doubt.

Possibilities which are in truth fantastic or completely unreal ought not to be regarded by the jury as affording a basis for reasonable doubt.

A fanciful doubt is not a reasonable doubt.

ETA: another Australian resource, from:
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/r...-and-wrongful-a/DNA EvidenceFINALandINDEX.pdf
5.

WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS

5.1 Miscarriages of justice and the wrongful conviction of the innocent

Unlike the natural sciences, where the proof of a theory must satisfy strict tests of

falsification, in the criminal law guilt or non-guilt is a matter of probability, tested to the

standard of &#8216;beyond reasonable doubt&#8217;. According to Michael Naughton of the University

of Bristol, under the adversarial system of justice:

Criminal trials are not a consideration of factual innocence or factual guilt. They

determine if defendants are &#8216;guilty&#8217; or &#8216;not guilty&#8217; according to the evidence before

the Court, governed by the prevailing principles of due process.109

Running through the criminal law is the presumption of innocence. Strictly speaking,

however, an acquittal in the form of a finding of &#8216;not guilty&#8217; is not equivalent to a finding

of actual innocence
. An appellate court may overturn the conviction of a person for many

reasons, such as if the court finds that the judge erroneously directed the jury, or that the

judge should have excluded evidence as inadmissible (for example, for being illegally or

improperly obtained, or prejudicial). In this situation, the appellate court could order a

retrial, or alternatively could decide to acquit the accused. The latter ruling is not a

declaration of the accused&#8217;s innocence but may, for instance, be due to practical or

logistical matters, including the length of time that has passed since the offence, the time

that the defendant has already served in custody, a lack of surviving witnesses, and so on.
 
I was trying to get across that suspicion is subjective, and insufficient to convict anyone. <modsnip>

And yet I still suspect him... So, now what?

I post about my suspicions in this forum with others to participate in thoughtful debate.

However, I do object to being told continually that it's a bad thing to discuss, or I shouldn't post my opinion or my suspicions because he was found Not Guilty....

I'm still suspicious of OJ Simpson... Is anyone not?! Yet he was also found Not Guilty. It doesn't prove innocence and suspicion can still remain, just as it does for me with GT. While it may not change his conviction, I still want to discuss it.

If you're so adamant that the case is done and dusted and that discussing it any further is inconsequential, then feel free not to engage. I'm really not saying that rudely, I just don't understand the argument for arguments sake approach of "he was found not guilty so get over it and stop discussing it because it won't change anything." It just seems inflammatory and without conversational purpose.
 
And yet I still suspect him... So, now what?

I post about my suspicions in this forum with others to participate in thoughtful debate.

However, I do object to being told continually that it's a bad thing to discuss, or I shouldn't post my opinion or my suspicions because he was found Not Guilty....

I'm still suspicious of OJ Simpson... Is anyone not?! Yet he was also found Not Guilty. It doesn't prove innocence and suspicion can still remain, just as it does for me with GT. While it may not change his conviction, I still want to discuss it.

If you're so adamant that the case is done and dusted and that discussing it any further is inconsequential, then feel free not to engage. I'm really not saying that rudely, I just don't understand the argument for arguments sake approach of "he was found not guilty so get over it and stop discussing it because it won't change anything." It just seems inflammatory and without conversational purpose.

I think there are some personalities out there that think we don't get the legalities of it, that if we only 'understood' (or backed down from the cajoling) that we would be okay with the verdict - just suck it up.

We get what happened. We just don't get why it happened the way it did. Why someone was legally allowed to use undue force to terrorise a highly inebriated girl - after hugely contributing to her inebriation - in order to 'protect himself and his property' .... so much so that she felt her only recourse was to attempt to flee from a 14th floor balcony ... with the result being her very untimely death.
 
<modsnip>

Is there any reason why you think all that will happen?

Because that is what is supposed to happen. The Coroner will consider all the evidence. Why is it that you say the Coroner will just "rubber stamp" this? If that were to happen, there would be a public outcry. It's seems to me that the public are tolerating the farcical trial becase they expect that the Coroner will answer the questions that were left unanswered at trial. A young woman died and people want answers because nobody wants a precedent set that says if a woman goes over a balcony and nobody saw what actually happened, it must be her own fault and the circumstances do not warrant a full and proper coronial investigation.
 
There is no better place on the net for exercising a god-given sense of "hinkiness" than Websleuths :websleuther:
Just want to say thank you to the Members and Mods.
 
Seriously!? I'm not saying a word!

A Current Affair’s ridiculous Gable Tostee ratings grab

OCTOBER 26, 20168:07PM

A CURRENT Affair has screened a bizarre month-old, unrelated interview with Gable Tostee’s girlfriend Lizzi Evans days after he was found not guilty of murder.

The Nine program had interviewed Ms Evans for an obviously unrelated story about problems she had shopping on the internet.
In the ACA interview, Ms Evans detailed her boyfriend’s attempts to fix a faulty shoe.

“He’s been, you know, like a good guy whose trying to make the girlfriend happy,” Ms Evans said not naming her boyfriend.
His identity became apparent when ACA showed a photo Ms Evans had supplied of Tostee appearing to repair the faulty shoe.

Video here.

A month old unrelated interview. :laughing:
She was able to avoid the media during the court case. How bizarre.
I wonder if she wore the shoes her boyfriend had fixed for her to court?
 
For Warriena's loved ones:

'Do not stand at my grave and weep
I am not there. I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning's hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry;
I am not there. I did not die.'


Do Not Stand At My Grave And Weep ~Mary Elizabeth Frye
 
There is no better place on the net for exercising a god-given sense of "hinkiness" than Websleuths :websleuther:
Just want to say thank you to the Members and Mods.

Thank You Ooohm :loveyou:
 
A month old unrelated interview. :laughing:
She was able to avoid the media during the court case. How bizarre.
I wonder if she wore the shoes her boyfriend had fixed for her to court?

It wasn't for lack of trying to draw attention to herself in the courtroom IMO:

'Then, there was the attractive young blonde, identity unknown, whose gasps and tears pierced the courtroom when the jury eventually cleared him of all charges on Thursday afternoon.'

'He did not look back at his parents behind him, or at the attractive blonde who seemed, post-verdict, so grateful for his freedom that she gasped and cried and gripped the hands of the person beside her.'

xxxxx xxxxxx&#8217;x face betrayed no hint of any nerves

:dramaqueen:
 
I read an interesting article on the blog 'Beautiful Minds' in the Scientific American today:

'Narcissism has been something of a mystery to psychologists. With narcissists, things tend to be extreme: the good is really good, and the bad is really bad. Narcissism expert W. Keith Campbell compares interacting with narcissists to eating chococate cake: "When I eat chococlate cake, 20 minutes later I'm under my desk wanting to die. When I eat broccoli, in 20 minutes I feel good. But given the choice I always eat the cake.""

Why Do Narcissists Lose Popularity Over Time?
 
I haven't had time to read all 22 pages of this journal article yet although the abstract seems promising wrt inquests conducted after acquittals:

'For three decades, Australian coroners have been moving steadily away from an historical partnership with the criminal law, and have emerged as independent judicial investigators with a dedicated court, and forensic and administrative support structures. Occasionally, however, a situation may arise where the ghosts of coronial law’s quasi-criminal past threaten to reappear, to the detriment of the coronial function. One of these situations might develop following an acquittal upon a criminal charge which involved the causing of a death. Issues pertaining to a coroner’s duty may remain unresolved following criminal proceedings; and the question has to be posed as to whether the result of the previous criminal prosecution restricts or confines, in any way, the scope of permissible findings by a coroner in a later inquest. This essay attempts to address this question in the particular context of Queensland law and its historical antecedents - many of which are common to other jurisdictions - in the hope that it might provoke consideration of the underlying practical and theoretical issues to the future benefit of coronial legal theory.'

Citation:

Aberdeen, John M., 'Blowed Off by a Side Wind?': Coronial Inquests Following Criminal Acquittals (March 6, 2016). (2016) 23 (3) Journal of Law and Medicine 595-608.
Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=2775548
 
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