Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

[kanzz]

Not necessarily, I was just brainstorming. Admittedly, I'm new to the case, so I'm at the point where I'm simply going through every possible scenario of what could have happened -- I guess it's just my way; I don't like to rule anything out and I want to explore all avenues, if only to reinforce my more solid convictions (such as, that this is a RDI case). I don't really have a definitive opinion as to whether or not a stun-gun was used, but if one was indeed used (which is a big "if"), then I believe that the family used it -- not an intruder. If I remember correctly, it's been reported that the R's didn't own a stun-gun and there was never one found at the house, which complicates this opinion of course.

I don't know how much time you've had to read up about the stun gun theory.. but that was one of Lou Smit's fantasies. He was famous for saying that an investigator doesn't let theory lead to evidence, they let evidence lead them to a theory (paraphrased.. can't find the exact quote). But what he did was counter to his own advice. He formulated a theory in less than a week - well, actually, it was an opinion based on feelings - that the R's were innocent because they were Christians; and then he set about to prove his theory. Even the manufacturer of the stun gun stated that it couldn't have caused those injuries.

 

[Userid]

You may as well include a cattle-prod as a possibility. The Ramseys didn't own a cattle-prod and one was never found at the house but what the heck, it MIGHT have been used to try and jolt JBR awake, right?

Following Lou Smit's rabbit trails will lead you further and further away from reality. There was no stun gun. That "theory" was made up to enhance the intruder's perverted profile, and it was fiction.

If you have your mind made up, that's fine. I will make my mind up by looking at both sides equally, as I am just beginning the case. Thanks for your concern.

 

[Heymom]

If you have your mind made up, that's fine. I will make my mind up by looking at both sides equally, as I am just beginning the case. Thanks for your concern.

It's hard for those of us who have been following this case for 20 years to deal with people who have to go through all of the FALSE information in order to realize some basic facts. A stun gun was not present and was not used. The marks on JonBenet were very likely from toy electric train tracks. Get a copy of James Kolar's book Foreign Faction and before you go down any more old rabbit-trails, just read it.

 

[Userid]

I don't know how much time you've had to read up about the stun gun theory.. but that was one of Lou Smit's fantasies. He was famous for saying that an investigator doesn't let theory lead to evidence, they let evidence lead them to a theory (paraphrased.. can't find the exact quote). But what he did was counter to his own advice. He formulated a theory in less than a week - well, actually, it was an opinion based on feelings - that the R's were innocent because they were Christians; and then he set about to prove his theory. Even the manufacturer of the stun gun stated that it couldn't have caused those injuries.

So far, I find myself disagreeing with a lot of things LS claimed. Like I said, I'm RDI, and nothing he's really said has changed that. The one thing I will say about his stun-gun theory is that, the markings on JBR's face do look a lot like the ones they compared to the deceased old man's face, where the one terminal didn't quite contact the flesh and therefore left a bigger, circular bruise on one "dot" compared to the other. I can't simply deny that, because they do look a lot alike. Where I disagree with him though is that a stun-gun would be used by an intruder to kidnap her. That doesn't make much sense to me and would be all but completely unnecessary to need a stun-gun to kidnap a 6 year old girl -- perhaps if you were trying to kidnap an adult, but even then, it's far-fetched to me.

So far, my leaning on it (if I have to choose a side) is that I don't definitively believe it's a stun-gun, but I also don't definitively believe it's the railroad track either. Just my opinion.

 

[Userid]

It's hard for those of us who have been following this case for 20 years to deal with people who have to go through all of the FALSE information in order to realize some basic facts. A stun gun was not present and was not used. The marks on JonBenet were very likely from toy electric train tracks. Get a copy of James Kolar's book Foreign Faction and before you go down any more old rabbit-trails, just read it.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but you can just put me on ignore if it really bothers you that much. I've always thought a message board is for discussion and discussion that is allowed for all people, be it newbies or veterans.

Thanks for the reading suggestion. The first book I want to read about the case is ST's.

 

[Heymom]

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but you can just put me on ignore if it really bothers you that much. I've always thought a message board is for discussion and discussion that is allowed for all people, be it newbies or veterans.

Thanks for the reading suggestion. The first book I want to read about the case is ST's.

I don't put people on ignore.

 

[Ambitioned]

Not necessarily, I was just brainstorming. Admittedly, I'm new to the case, so I'm at the point where I'm simply going through every possible scenario of what could have happened -- I guess it's just my way; I don't like to rule anything out and I want to explore all avenues, if only to reinforce my more solid convictions (such as, that this is a RDI case). I don't really have a definitive opinion as to whether or not a stun-gun was used, but if one was indeed used (which is a big "if"), then I believe that the family used it -- not an intruder. If I remember correctly, it's been reported that the R's didn't own a stun-gun and there was never one found at the house, which complicates this opinion of course.

The Air Taser company tried to replicate the marks and it couldn't be done. They were very different from the ones on JB. Also I don't know if you saw the CBS special but a volunteer allowed Kolar to use it on him and the marks were also different. Smit also tried on pigs. Again, different. My brother is also LE and says no way were those abrasions from a stun gun. You can dream six ways to Sunday about a stun gun but it just didn't happen. Stun gun theory is deader than a doornail IMO.

 

[otg]

Userid[/I];12921910]If you have your mind made up, that's fine. I will make my mind up by looking at both sides equally, as I am just beginning the case. Thanks for your concern.

Userid, I responded to your posts on the following thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...d-in-the-crime-or-not&p=12923002#post12923002

 

[OliviaG1996]

If you have your mind made up, that's fine. I will make my mind up by looking at both sides equally, as I am just beginning the case. Thanks for your concern.

Just thought I'd say that looking at the case from both sides and asking questions pertained to those sides is essential in producing a well thought-out theory. Without doing so, a theory becomes uneducated and biased. So keep researching and don't be afraid to ask questions on here, Userid. That's one of the reasons Websleuths exists.

 

[BBB167893]

Just one tiny problem...No one knew about the head wound until the ME peeled back her scalp. They all thought she had died from the ligature strangulation.

I should think it would be pretty hard not to know about the head wound when you're the one who caused it!

 

[BoldBear]

Yes, me too. I know some people think the scream is fake, but then, what about the metal-scraping sound that was also heard that night?

Okay. Suppose there was metal scraping on the ground that night. You're inside your house and you hear it. What direction did it come from? If you're inside, was it 1 house or four houses down? Was it North or South? This could be a great clue, but what does it mean? Do you know what caused the scraping sound? Is there any physical evidence of metal being dragged across some surface to connect the sound with an object?

Of course, it's implied that its circumstantial evidence connected to the baseball bat. Or is it connected to the window grate? Or is it somewhere else in the neighborhood?

Not really a lot to go on here. If this ties into your theory, fine. Then build a case around the evidence. Tell us what makes this important.

The train room window: there are some really good arguments here on WS about John breaking the glass to stage. It's a very logical possibility. The question that follows is what happened to all of the shards of the glass? Where were they hidden or how did he get them out of the house?

 

[k-mac]

I was thinking something like this too -- that the stun gun was used to try to revive her, by the parents, but it didn't work. I also think that's where the bowl of pineapple fits in: they tried to feed her a snack right after it happened, hoping she'd "feel better." I know that may be far-fetched with the pineapple though because if the head wound came first, she most likely would have immediately lost consciousness and would have never regained it back, even for a moment (right?).

i dont think a stun gun in my theory. sorry if that sounded like i was eluding to!
but something for a similar effect. to poke or prod her. could be something electrical some think the train tracks i dont know, ijust think JR and PR are responsible for those marks and it was connected to reviving her in their way.

the pineapple had to have occurred before anything sinister started.
thats why it was overlooked.

jmho :fence:

 

[k-mac]

https://youtu.be/SfC5uO6qZho

trolling u tube because i cant sleep lol i enjoy watching the collections people put together of JBR ,never gets old for me beautiful child.
anyway some footage on this clip i have never seen before an odd interaction between JR and PR @3.27
any ideas what this interaction was about ? where i can see more ?
so strange
tia

 

[Userid]

Just thought I'd say that looking at the case from both sides and asking questions pertained to those sides is essential in producing a well thought-out theory. Without doing so, a theory becomes uneducated and biased. So keep researching and don't be afraid to ask questions on here, Userid. That's one of the reasons Websleuths exists.

Thanks you, Olivia! I sincerely appreciate your patience and understanding.

And thank you, OTG; I responded in the other thread.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Okay. Suppose there was metal scraping on the ground that night. You're inside your house and you hear it. What direction did it come from? If you're inside, was it 1 house or four houses down? Was it North or South? This could be a great clue, but what does it mean? Do you know what caused the scraping sound? Is there any physical evidence of metal being dragged across some surface to connect the sound with an object?

Of course, it's implied that its circumstantial evidence connected to the baseball bat. Or is it connected to the window grate? Or is it somewhere else in the neighborhood?

Not really a lot to go on here. If this ties into your theory, fine. Then build a case around the evidence. Tell us what makes this important.

The train room window: there are some really good arguments here on WS about John breaking the glass to stage. It's a very logical possibility. The question that follows is what happened to all of the shards of the glass? Where were they hidden or how did he get them out of the house?

After seeing the crime scene video of the window, I find it hard to believe the window was part of the staging. There are strands of cobwebs hanging from the hole in the glass indicating it's not a fresh break, not to mention the dusty old cobweb in the corner of the sill. Though Kolar did point out a tiny shard of glass was caught in the web (also visible on tape) so I wonder how that got there.
But I think if JR had looked at that window as a possible fake point of entry, he would have at least gotten rid of that web. It was apparent to everyone on the scene that it was an unlikely POE, in part thanks to the web. No one seriously considered it until Lou Smit saw that picture with the wide open window and the suitcase FW claims to have moved around. Once LS started making a big deal out of the window JR pounced on it and acted like he thought so all along. He even writes in DOI about his missing period that morning, saying he suddenly remembered that broken window in the basement and raced down to inspect it in case someone got in that way. Never bothers to report any of this (or the mystery van in the alley) at the time, of course. Gotta save something for the book.

There is definitely something fishy about the story of how the window was broken and how the glass was cleaned up, though.


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[otg]

The urine stain is said to be right outside the WR door, near the paint tote.

From acandyrose:
"Just outside the room, there were wooden shards near an artist's paint tray that also held part of a broken paintbrush; several paintings, one of which Patsy had done in Michigan, of flowers in a box on her porch; rope; string from a sled; and down the hall on a counter, a red pocket knife."
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-evidence.htm

From the pbwiki page:
"There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made."
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682481/Interpreting the Evidence

[The following is all pure speculation based on (perhaps) a dubious source, so place whatever importance on it you may choose.]


Bodily fluids can be detected using various methods. We know for example that investigators used Luminol to look for blood evidence because of news articles. We know a Wood's lamp was used on JonBenet's body to look for semen during the autopsy. Since more things than just semen show up under UV light, what investigators thought might be semen was tested and found to be blood (JonBenet's) on her legs. I don't know all of the chemicals are that are used to look for bodily fluids, but I'm sure there is more than just Luminol. The following photo was leaked and printed in one of the tabloids. It shows a red area on the carpet outside of the WC. They (I think) misidentified it as blood. I believe it was actually a chemical sprayed on the carpet by CSIs looking for bodily fluids. It could possibly be the area where urine was detected. Once identified, the carpet area was removed and tested for positive identification in the forensics lab.

These are the reasons I suspect the red area in the following photo is where her bladder emptied into her clothes and into the carpet. Each of us can make up our own minds as to whether this might be what it is.

BTW, this area is approximately where the paint tray had been when it was found. The two sets of golf clubs and other items had been moved around while CSIs were doing their testing, as shown in the following earlier photo:

 

[PositiveLight]

[The following is all pure speculation based on (perhaps) a dubious source, so place whatever importance on it you may choose.]


Bodily fluids can be detected using various methods. We know for example that investigators used Luminol to look for blood evidence because of news articles. We know a Wood's lamp was used on JonBenet's body to look for semen during the autopsy. Since more things than just semen show up under UV light, what investigators thought might be semen was tested and found to be blood (JonBenet's) on her legs. I don't know all of the chemicals are that are used to look for bodily fluids, but I'm sure there is more than just Luminol. The following photo was leaked and printed in one of the tabloids. It shows a red area on the carpet outside of the WC. They (I think) misidentified it as blood. I believe it was actually a chemical sprayed on the carpet by CSIs looking for bodily fluids. It could possibly be the area where urine was detected. Once identified, the carpet area was removed and tested for positive identification in the forensics lab.

These are the reasons I suspect the red area in the following photo is where her bladder emptied into her clothes and into the carpet. Each of us can make up our own minds as to whether this might be what it is.

BTW, this area is approximately where the paint tray had been when it was found. The two sets of golf clubs and other items had been moved around while CSIs were doing their testing, as shown in the following earlier photo:

Awwww I can't see either picture ( broken link I guess?)

 

[otg]

Awwww I can't see either picture ( broken link I guess?)

Don't know why you can't see them, PL. I still see them in my (and your) post. I uploaded them to Tinypic; below are the links.

Photo #1: http://oi66.tinypic.com/noha1w.jpg
Photo #2: http://oi63.tinypic.com/npj2f9.jpg

 

[Coco'sMommy]

Don't know why you can't see them, PL. I still see them in my (and your) post. I uploaded them to Tinypic; below are the links.

Photo #1: http://oi66.tinypic.com/noha1w.jpg
Photo #2: http://oi63.tinypic.com/npj2f9.jpg

Interesting. I see the red spots on one of the golf clubs as well as right in front. I'm wondering if Burke whacked her in the head right there.


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[PositiveLight]

We don't know for sure but the state of the rooms on the second floor and Patsy's slip up about blood when not even being asked about any.....



TRIP DEMUTH: Let me ask you about this in 125.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).

TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging over the door?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind of tucked back.

TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls the drapery, it pulls it back.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood or anything, do you?

TOM HANEY: We skipped ahead to 134. We can come back to these, but other than what we talked about on 122, three and four, five, you don't have any thoughts at this time from what you have noticed?

PATSY RAMSEY: No, not unless you know the bag (inaudible).

TOM HANEY: We will look at that later.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is Barbara's coat hanging there.

TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 134.

.....pretty much tells us where the initial attack started. Haney should've been horse whipped for ignoring her statement.

Agree!
He should have been horse whipped! Same for all the other investigators for handling them with kid gloves.

I WISH they could bring both Ramsey men in now and requestion them with an EXCELLENT investigator from the FBI and NOT handle them with kid gloves. Treat them like anyone else during the interrogation. Come down on them hard. Catch all their lies and ask them to explain themselves and why their story changed.
I also wish they could DUCT TAPE LW mouth during the interrogation and just say "WOULD YOU PLEASE SHUT THE HELL UP LW????:
:banghead:

Regarding the material holding the curtain back.... look at this photo. Could the big tie be what the initial half a$$ strangulation was used for?
There is something with that tieback. PR bringing up possible blood is a slip on her part.