Questions you'd like answers to...

[questfortrue]

For anyone who hasn't read this, I found it very educational to compare Patsy's 911 call to this FBI study of 911 calls placed by innocent callers vs guilty callers using statement analysis.
https://leb.fbi.gov/2008-pdfs/leb-june-2008#page30
She hits the guilty marks in many places ("We have a kidnapping" in itself is a goldmine) but the bit kanzz posted above pointing out Patsy's confusion is a great example of the 'huh' factor.



We see this with Patsy. Her internal script was not prepared for the question "does it say who took her?" so she goes, "What?" In all, Patsy ends up responding to that question in 4 different ways as she tries to decide what she should reveal. After stalling with "what?" she says no, which is a clear answer. Then she takes it back - she doesn't know. Stalling again, she reminds the operator it is a ransom note. Then she changes her answer again by providing the correct answer, albeit with the "Victory!" & SBTC switched as kanzz pointed out. Which to me indicates she's reciting from memory, not reading off a page. "Victory" is an afterthought here, but it would have been the first thing she read if she was looking right at it.

Throughout the call she's really trying to impress upon the operator that she has received a ransom note - she can't shut up about it. It's more like she's calling in to report the ransom note than her missing child. But she did not anticipate being asked about its contents because she didn't think any of the crap she made up was actually important. In her mind, the only relevance of the note is that it is a ransom note because she wants to emphasize that it is from a kidnapper - she's distancing the family from the note. But to the operator, the primary relevance of the note is any useful information it might contain, not whether it is asking for ransom or not. Patsy shares very little relevant info with the operator (a related indication of deception mentioned in the study) and hangs up before she can be pressed like this again.

Excellent, DFF! I appreciated this analysis of deception in 911 calls. Not only is the RN a ‘sales job’, as former profiler Fitzgerald noted, but so is the 911 call. As we can easily hear she wanted to make sure they understood “We have a kidnapping!” And she perseveres with fake urgency until someone in the room distracts her.

A corollary to the 911 deception is the variation in explanations given by JR and PR regarding the RN left in the home when the Intruder left her body. This analysis is from Mark McClish’s book. When asked on LKL why a kidnapper would leave a ransom note and hide the body in the home, PR responds that the RN was a ruse to fool the police, as though an Intruder came in with a mission to kill JB. JR, OTOH, states that it was a “kidnapping gone wrong.” He never veers from that proposition.

McClish analyzes it appears to be an admission from PR that the Intruder entered the home to intentionally kill JonBenét, and she calls the RN a ruse. JR’s explanation is different. He seems to desire that no one views this situation as anything but a kidnapping. From Mcclish’s book I know you are lying -

J. Ramsey: "We thought we were dealing with a kidnapping. We really did."

J. Ramsey uses the word “really” to convince us they thought this was a kidnapping. This is one of those words that indicate deception.

My impression is that there is more distancing in JR’s analysis than in PR’s. He cannot stand the idea that anyone would think JB was killed intentionally. And, just as his statement on LKL reflects that emotional denial, he utters to Reverend Holverstock, “I don’t think he (the kidnapper) meant to kill her. She was warm she was wrapped in a blanket.” How would he know what was in the kidnapper’s mind?

Further, even though JR claimed later he did not see the ligature around her neck when he found her and brought her body upstairs, Boulder swiftly carried the news that JB had been asphyxiated. To most everyone her strangulation seems pretty intentional. Yet JR denies that her death was/could be intentional.

Why is the admission that she may have been intentionally killed more difficult for JR than for PR? Just food for thought.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Wow, thanks for that questfortrue! I never considered JR's odd comments that morning could be distancing before, nor was I aware of the inconsistencies of their statements about the purpose of the note. I'll have to pick up Mark McClish's book, I started to really research this case after reading his analysis of the ransom note and first CNN interview on his site. John and Patsy are fascinating because they subtly give themselves away any time they open their mouths but refuse to do the smart thing and shut up. To John's credit it's usually Patsy - "I don't know if it's a he or a she", "there are two people who know, the killer and someone the killer confided in", come on Patsy! But John does his fair share if revealing, as your post points out.

 

[SS 396 SS]

"Why is the admission that she may have been intentionally killed more difficult for JR than for PR?"

Because she wasn't intentionally bashed in the head but she was intentionally finished off? Is that what your gettin at?

 

[Rott Mom]

I would like to know why the R's didn't want to be interviewed by LE - instead they wanted to get the heck out of "Dodge" - arranging for their plane to fly them out after finding their precious daughter dead in their home.

 

[Rott Mom]

"Why is the admission that she may have been intentionally killed more difficult for JR than for PR?"

Because she wasn't intentionally bashed in the head but she was intentionally finished off? Is that what your gettin at?

Who are you addressing this to?

 

[SS 396 SS]

I would like to know why the R's didn't want to be interviewed by LE - instead they wanted to get the heck out of "Dodge" - arranging for their plane to fly them out after finding their precious daughter dead in their home.

I figure they wanted to spread their lies to public first, that's why they went on TV.

 

[SS 396 SS]

Who are you addressing this to?

It was posted by questfortrue
That's where it took my mind. I was just wonderin if that's what was meant.

 

[TeaTime]

"He didn't mean to kill her" is nonsense. No one thinks that when they come upon their murdered baby.

And, no one who comes upon their murdered baby with a noose around her neck going to think for one second that it wasn't intentional.

PUHLEASE. These people!

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I would like to know why the R's didn't want to be interviewed by LE - instead they wanted to get the heck out of "Dodge" - arranging for their plane to fly them out after finding their precious daughter dead in their home.

Seriously. Your daughter's murdered body is lying on the floor in the other room, you discovered it (and unless you're a monster, it has completely devastated you) and within 20-30 minutes of that you're on the phone ordering a plane and telling the police you have an important business meeting. Maybe I'm crazy (no, just checked, I'm not) but the thought of doing that is just sickening.

In DOI he said he wanted to fly the family to Atlanta because it was their home and they feared for their lives...BS. Everyone from Atlanta was in the process of flying to Boulder and arrived a few hours later. There were plenty of places to stay and police to protect them. It's truly absurd that anyone would want to fly by jet to a 'crucial' business meeting at a time like that, especially since he had obviously planned to spend the day on vacation with his family, not going to meetings. But we're expected to believe the police report from that day pulled that detail out of thin air. Right. To me, it sounds like more of JR not realizing how impersonal and cold he comes across and trying to make up for it later.

 

[Miz Adventure]

DFF - I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[RDI]

According to their version of events, Patsy called 911 while John read the ransom note on the floor in his underwear. In the call, it sure feels as though Patsy is reading from the note but there is no way she would be able to see the note given where the call was placed and where John was hunched over it. Also curious is the complete lack of fingerprints from either of them on the ransom note. Their story is that the note was found on the staircase, picked up by Patsy, possibly handed to John, and then placed on the kitchen floor. No prints.

Patsy probably knew that if the ransom note was discovered to have been written in the house using items from the house, it would look even more suspicious if the only prints recovered were from members of the Ramsey family. What I don't understand here is why John offered up the pad the note was written on to investigators. It's possible he was clueless and just slowly piecing together what had taken place as the morning went on, but it is worth examining further.

I really struggle with John only finding out the real story as the morning progresses. It would explain some stupidity with setting the scene up but I also cannot see Patsy doing all that herself. It is hard to explain John giving the notepad to detectives but I'm sure the stress of the situation has a lot to explain for these decisions.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I believe John knew - and saw for himself - what had happened very shortly after Patsy made her discovery. From what I know of Patsy she doesn't look the sort of person who could be self contained enough NOT to scream for John. She would have needed his physical and emotional support - and "his good old southern common sense"

As for the pad being given to a police officer - maybe he had forgotten which pad Patsy had used for the ransom note. He probably knew she had turned to the centre of the pad before writing, and may have thought the police would be too stupid to go looking through the pad? He would have had a lot on his mind at that time.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I believe John knew - and saw for himself - what had happened very shortly after Patsy made her discovery. From what I know of Patsy she doesn't look the sort of person who could be self contained enough NOT to scream for John. She would have needed his physical and emotional support - and "his good old southern common sense"

As for the pad being given to a police officer - maybe he had forgotten which pad Patsy had used for the ransom note. He probably knew she had turned to the centre of the pad before writing, and may have thought the police would be too stupid to go looking through the pad? He would have had a lot on his mind at that time.

Totally agree. She went straight to John. As for the pad, he may not have been in the vicinity at the time she pulled it out. Lots going on that night.

Also, if one agrees John AND Burke can be heard in the 911 tape, John had to have at a minimum known then and agreed to lie to the cops. Burke was back in bed within minutes and told to keep quiet and pretend to be asleep, which is the exact opposite thing a father who did not know what happened or where his daughter was. He'd have interrogated him himself and presented him to LE for more questioning as he was the only other person on the same floor that night. "Are you SURE you didn't hear anything at all? Think!"

 

[CoreyRocks]

I really struggle with John only finding out the real story as the morning progresses. It would explain some stupidity with setting the scene up but I also cannot see Patsy doing all that herself. It is hard to explain John giving the notepad to detectives but I'm sure the stress of the situation has a lot to explain for these decisions.

I agree.

I believe John was more involved. I believe either BDI and/or JDI. I stated long ago that I believe John set up Patsy. Before the BDI came to light (GJ indictments of JR and PR) and a third un-named person obviously Burke alot felt PR all the way. I believe John was JonBenet's abuser all along. Burke hit her with the flashlight and John strangled her implicating Patsy. I think John threw Patsy under the bus. Knowing Patsy's personality and over-the-top -ness John knew Patsy would look like the guilty one. John was the main controller and manipulator imho. And it worked most believed it was/is Patsy. I believe Patsy was in shock and insurmountable grief. I believe John dictated the ransom novel to her to write. John was holding all the cards and pulling Patsy along on puppet strings.

I believe JR also kept Patsy heavily medicated and dictated her script on CNN, too. She certainly seemed guilty, but JR was feeding her all her words, too, imho.

Imho JR is a master at controlling everything and everyone. Patsy seemed to be the one calling all the shots, but I believe she was just a fragile, scared, unhealthy person who thought she needed the security she felt JR gave her.

(I feel JR was even behind Patsy's comment to her parents about not seeing their grandchild even though she was not yet pregnant IF THEY did not give JR money to start his business. She was his puppet all along.) MOO.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I agree.

I believe John was more involved. I believe either BDI and/or JDI. I stated long ago that I believe John set up Patsy. Before the BDI came to light (GJ indictments of JR and PR) and a third un-named person obviously Burke alot felt PR all the way. I believe John was JonBenet's abuser all along. Burke hit her with the flashlight and John strangled her implicating Patsy. I think John threw Patsy under the bus. Knowing Patsy's personality and over-the-top -ness John knew Patsy would look like the guilty one. John was the main controller and manipulator imho. And it worked most believed it was/is Patsy. I believe Patsy was in shock and insurmountable grief. I believe John dictated the ransom novel to her to write. John was holding all the cards and pulling Patsy along on puppet strings.

I believe JR also kept Patsy heavily medicated and dictated her script on CNN, too. She certainly seemed guilty, but JR was feeding her all her words, too, imho.

Imho JR is a master at controlling everything and everyone. Patsy seemed to be the one calling all the shots, but I believe she was just a fragile, scared, unhealthy person who thought she needed the security she felt JR gave her.

(I feel JR was even behind Patsy's comment to her parents about not seeing their grandchild even though she was not yet pregnant IF THEY did not give JR money to start his business. She was his puppet all along.) MOO.

I don't think the parents had much to do with the death of JBR. I think BDI - and then the parents covered for him and staged some of the details. The ransom note was written by Patsy but I think if John had dictated it then it wouldn't have sounded quite so nonsensical.

The parents were not against eachother, they tried to help one another. They wanted to save their son from being taken from them.

I agree with your second-to-last paragraph.

 

[Ambitioned]

I agree JR was involved but it's a little fuzzy to me exactly at what point. Since there was a match with the fibers in her crotch area to his sweater I have to wonder if he helped with that part of staging as nasty as that is to think of.

:sigh:

 

[kanzz]

Excellent, DFF! I appreciated this analysis of deception in 911 calls. Not only is the RN a ‘sales job’, as former profiler Fitzgerald noted, but so is the 911 call. As we can easily hear she wanted to make sure they understood “We have a kidnapping!” And she perseveres with fake urgency until someone in the room distracts her.

A corollary to the 911 deception is the variation in explanations given by JR and PR regarding the RN left in the home when the Intruder left her body. This analysis is from Mark McClish’s book. When asked on LKL why a kidnapper would leave a ransom note and hide the body in the home, PR responds that the RN was a ruse to fool the police, as though an Intruder came in with a mission to kill JB. JR, OTOH, states that it was a “kidnapping gone wrong.” He never veers from that proposition.

McClish analyzes it appears to be an admission from PR that the Intruder entered the home to intentionally kill JonBenét, and she calls the RN a ruse. JR’s explanation is different. He seems to desire that no one views this situation as anything but a kidnapping. From Mcclish’s book I know you are lying -

J. Ramsey: "We thought we were dealing with a kidnapping. We really did."

J. Ramsey uses the word “really” to convince us they thought this was a kidnapping. This is one of those words that indicate deception.

My impression is that there is more distancing in JR’s analysis than in PR’s. He cannot stand the idea that anyone would think JB was killed intentionally. And, just as his statement on LKL reflects that emotional denial, he utters to Reverend Holverstock, “I don’t think he (the kidnapper) meant to kill her. She was warm she was wrapped in a blanket.” How would he know what was in the kidnapper’s mind?

Further, even though JR claimed later he did not see the ligature around her neck when he found her and brought her body upstairs, Boulder swiftly carried the news that JB had been asphyxiated. To most everyone her strangulation seems pretty intentional. Yet JR denies that her death was/could be intentional.

Why is the admission that she may have been intentionally killed more difficult for JR than for PR? Just food for thought.

BBM
Some things don't jump out at me when I first read them, or else I just forget them. But for some reason, I don't remember the bit about JR saying he didn't see the ligature around JB's neck. I've been searching, but haven't been able to put my eyes on it. Do you remember where that was by any chance? I'd just like to read it in context.

If (as I suspect) JR wasn't in on any of this and the blanket was positioned in such a way across her neck that he might not have seen it, I submit that it might be possible for him to have thought such a thing. But I do think by then he might have been concluding that the "he" involved very well could have been BR. I don't think he's stupid. I think maybe he just got sucked into PR's vortex of the cover-up from the time he was handed the RN. jmo

 

[Cranberry]

BBM
Some things don't jump out at me when I first read them, or else I just forget them. But for some reason, I don't remember the bit about JR saying he didn't see the ligature around JB's neck. I've been searching, but haven't been able to put my eyes on it. Do you remember where that was by any chance? I'd just like to read it in context.

If (as I suspect) JR wasn't in on any of this and the blanket was positioned in such a way across her neck that he might not have seen it, I submit that it might be possible for him to have thought such a thing. But I do think by then he might have been concluding that the "he" involved very well could have been BR. I don't think he's stupid. I think maybe he just got sucked into PR's vortex of the cover-up from the time he was handed the RN. jmo

Hey kanzz, this is from JR's 6/98 interview:

7 LOU SMIT: How do you know they were tied
8 tight?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Because they were -- you know,
10 her skin was swollen around. And they were not
11 easy to get off. I tried to untie them quickly and
12 I just picked her up carried her upstairs. I was
13 screaming. In fact, I couldn't even scream.
14 And then I brought her upstairs into the
15 living room and later there, at one point, tried
16 to untie the not further, and Linda Arndt stopped
17 me from doing it.
18 LOU SMIT: The knot?
19 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
20 LOU SMIT: Where?
21 JOHN RAMSEY: Up on her arms. And I didn't
22 notice the -- as I noticed the blood below the
23 surface, but I didn't notice this core around the
24 neck.

the blood below surface may be the triangular red bruise, and core could be a transcription error for cord?

 

[questfortrue]

BBM
Some things don't jump out at me when I first read them, or else I just forget them. But for some reason, I don't remember the bit about JR saying he didn't see the ligature around JB's neck. I've been searching, but haven't been able to put my eyes on it. Do you remember where that was by any chance? I'd just like to read it in context.

If (as I suspect) JR wasn't in on any of this and the blanket was positioned in such a way across her neck that he might not have seen it, I submit that it might be possible for him to have thought such a thing. But I do think by then he might have been concluding that the "he" involved very well could have been BR. I don't think he's stupid. I think maybe he just got sucked into PR's vortex of the cover-up from the time he was handed the RN. jmo

In addition to Cranberry's quote, there was this exchange:
11 LOU SMIT: So just one more area. Everybody
12 has heard about -- I can't say that. What have you
13 heard about a paint tray?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just what I read, or tried
15 not to read. But can't help but hear the media
16 that tell us a broken paintbrush that was used as
17 part of the -- you see, I found JonBenet. I never
18 saw a cord or that sort of thing. I thought I saw
19 a cord, but I didn't focus on it or realize there
20 was anything in the way of a twister, which
21 apparently it was.
22 It apparently was a paintbrush. And that's based
23 on what I heard in the media. That's my
24 impression. That's all I really heard.

He did not see a cord,
May-y-ybe he thought he saw a cord but didn't focus on it.

Does this remind anyone of the exchange with Dr. P: May-y-ybe I ate pineapple.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

So wait, did he just say he had trouble getting the wrist restraints off because they were so tight her skin was swollen up around them? The same restraint the coroner was able to slip off her hand on the autopsy table? Maybe he mistook the bunched up fabric under the cord for swollen skin but it still sounds weird to me.