Discussion of "Overkill - The Unsolved Murder of Jon Benet" doco crime scene footage

[Heyits_tay04]

originally posted by ZoriahNZ
#7-13 Are extremely graphic autopsy photos. We've seen these before, but these are HQ. There appears to be dried saliva or mucus streaks/runs on her right cheek which (jmo) is inconsistent with the idea of her mouth being gagged with duct tape prior to death. Unless it's adhesive residue from the tape? #12-13 close ups of her hand, it doesn't look like a heart to me, more like a crude happy face. What is the white particulate on her palm? Plaster from the WC floor?


Graphic photo to follow:





I found a bigger photo of the residue on her mouth. It looks to me like it could be duct tape shaped. It covers her upper lip more in this photo.
Please let me know what you think....I am very new to all of this.

It looks like duct tape residue to me??


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Justice for Susan Winters.

 

[BoldBear]

The wiping of the batteries makes sense to me. IMO, the Rs were trying to pin the ownership of this flashlight to an outside party, and in order to do so, all of their prints needed to disappear.

But what was the purpose to leave the flashlight out on the counter? If they put it back in the drawer, would the police have found it and decided it was the murder weapon? It would have been a flashlight in a drawer. No one knew that she was struck on the head. If you're promoting an intruder theory, why leave what could have been the murder weapon out where it could be found? With the flashlight put away, they could just denied they used it. Then you just promote the idea that an intruder took the murder weapon with them.

 

[Miz Adventure]

And make sure you hate the Ramsey's first and foremost. And keep pretending you do so because that's what JonBenet wants. If you eliminate the possibilities and the probabilities, you don't have much left except scientific evidence.

I certainly don't hate the Ramseys, never have.

They were guilty of covering up a first degree murder. This would have happened (imo) after JBR was already dead, so they didn't kill her.

If I was to dislike the Ramseys for any reason it would be because of the lies. The huge amount of lies, in an attempt to throw the police off the truth. The huge amount of lies they used to incriminate their friends and acquaintances when they KNEW that none of it was true.

They even threw santa claus under the bus.

And scientific evidence is always useful when backing up circumstanstial evidence.

 

[OliviaG1996]

But what was the purpose to leave the flashlight out on the counter? If they put it back in the drawer, would the police have found it and decided it was the murder weapon? It would have been a flashlight in a drawer. No one knew that she was struck on the head. If you're promoting an intruder theory, why leave what could have been the murder weapon out where it could be found? With the flashlight put away, they could just denied they used it. Then you just promote the idea that an intruder took the murder weapon with them.

Didn't LE have control over the home after the autopsy? By then, they certainly would have been searching for a blunt object used for the head bash.

I see the flashlight and ransom note as two red Xs the Rs were trying to paint, as if telling police Intruder was here (X). Their mindset seemed to be, "Hey, if police happen to find two items of interest without any of our fingerprints on them, it had to have been an intruder, right?" It's just staging, by people likely out of their minds with panic.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I certainly don't hate the Ramseys, never have.

They were guilty of covering up a first degree murder. This would have happened (imo) after JBR was already dead, so they didn't kill her.

If I was to dislike the Ramseys for any reason it would be because of the lies. The huge amount of lies, in an attempt to throw the police off the truth. The huge amount of lies they used to incriminate their friends and acquaintances when they KNEW that none of it was true.

They even threw santa claus under the bus.

And scientific evidence is always useful when backing up circumstanstial evidence.

I don't hate the Ramseys either. I certainly don't hate someone who was not quite 10 at the time. If the only wrong things JR and PR had done were 1) Avoid getting help for a boy who was showing overt jealousy, anger or aggression towards his sister (Patsy's "We didn't mean for this to happen"; the Counts the GJ agreed upon) or 2) Covered up the crime out of fear of losing their surviving child, I could almost understand Patsy and John. Almost.

But they gave TV interviews they didn't need to give. They wrote books for profit. Rather than stay quiet, they publicly lied again and again. Just this past year, John Ramsey promised he would finally go silent. Then, oops, he did it again.

You're right though, the worst thing they did was throw people they knew to be innocent under the bus. From a sickly old man, to their financially strapped housekeeper and her husband, to their own good friends. So while I can't hate people I never knew, I can conclude they were not good people.

 

[searchinGirl]

I certainly don't hate the Ramseys, never have.

They were guilty of covering up a first degree murder. This would have happened (imo) after JBR was already dead, so they didn't kill her.

If I was to dislike the Ramseys for any reason it would be because of the lies. The huge amount of lies, in an attempt to throw the police off the truth. The huge amount of lies they used to incriminate their friends and acquaintances when they KNEW that none of it was true.

They even threw santa claus under the bus.

And scientific evidence is always useful when backing up circumstanstial evidence.

You might believe the Ramsey's are liars because they don't know what happened. And typical of Boulder Cops thinking they were robbed of their opportunity to interrogate the Ramseys into confessing to the crime, when they sent the science to the lab they were sure it would back up their circumstantial evidence. Only it didn't. and then out of hubris or whatever, BPD decides to keep it a secret from the DA; a lie of omission. Then one of BPD lies to the press in yet another tactic to get the Ramseys to come in and confess. I'm pretty disappointed in the Boulder Police because they are the liars and they created this media extravaganza that has changed Boulder forever.

That graphic autopsy image upstream of JonBenet. How do you look at that and see staging? It's just horrible what happened to this girl. And she was alive when that garotte went around her neck. Red before dead as a Whitson says.

 

[Miz Adventure]

You might believe the Ramsey's are liars because they don't know what happened. And typical of Boulder Cops thinking they were robbed of their opportunity to interrogate the Ramseys into confessing to the crime, when they sent the science to the lab they were sure it would back up their circumstantial evidence. Only it didn't. and then out of hubris or whatever, BPD decides to keep it a secret from the DA; a lie of omission. Then one of BPD lies to the press in yet another tactic to get the Ramseys to come in and confess. I'm pretty disappointed in the Boulder Police because they are the liars and they created this media extravaganza that has changed Boulder forever.

That graphic autopsy image upstream of JonBenet. How do you look at that and see staging? It's just horrible what happened to this girl. And she was alive when that garotte went around her neck. Red before dead as a Whitson says.

I believe the Ramseys knew exactly what happened that night because they were part of it - the final part anyway.

It sounds to me as though you have been reading the Ramseys book (of fiction) 'Death of innocence'? Or perhaps the one written by Robert Whitson (helped along by JR). You mention a couple of (erroneous) 'facts' that the Ramseys wanted readers to believe.

I have never said that I thought the strangulation was staging. Maybe the garrotte part of it was also put there by the person who murdered JBR. I hope we can find out one day.

If the Ramseys had simply given the police what they wanted then the case would be a lot less complicated. The police wanted interviews; the R's refused. Simple as that. Their main reason? The BPD are liars and will twist our words. Good excuse that.

Somebody got away with murder.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

I'm pretty disappointed in the Boulder Police because they are the liars and they created this media extravaganza that has changed Boulder forever.

The horrific murder of an innocent, helpless child changed Boulder forever.

It was not the BPD who made this a media nightmare, they were just doing their jobs as best they could, albeit clumsily. But they had their hands tied, remember, being told to treat the Ramseys as victims when the evidence suggested otherwise.

The Ramseys themselves are fully to blame for the media circus which ensued, in my opinion, by refusing to cooperate and sit down with the police and instead doing a nationwide TV interview a mere 7 days into the investigation. They created all the media controversy and drama in order to deflect from their own involvement. Preserving their public image in the community and nationwide was more important to them than solving the murder of their daughter.

 

[EarthtoMel]

Has anyone figured out why her hands were above her head when she died? Were they tied to something to keep her from fighting?
I don't see anyone having their arms above their head if someone was strangling them. It just seems to me to be a strange position for her to have been in.

 

[UKGuy]

Has anyone figured out why her hands were above her head when she died? Were they tied to something to keep her from fighting?
I don't see anyone having their arms above their head if someone was strangling them. It just seems to me to be a strange position for her to have been in.

parrotlover2001,
I think you are right, the arms do not look natural do they. Maybe BR dragged her by the arms, hence the abrasions on her body?

.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

I think it's consistent with rigor mortis of the limbs, if she was killed and left lying face down (for more than an hour or two) with her hands above her head. As I recall, her wrists don't demonstrate enough evidence of having been restrained forcefully or hung from them.

ETA: UKGuy's thought is also a possibility, I agree.

 

[EarthtoMel]

I think it's consistent with rigor mortis of the limbs, if she was killed and left lying face down (for more than an hour or two) with her hands above her head. As I recall, her wrists don't demonstrate enough evidence of having been restrained forcefully or hung from them.

ETA: UKGuy's thought is also a possibility, I agree.

Dragging sounds like a good possibility.
I am thinking if someone was strangling me, my hands would not be above my head like that. I am wondering why they were in that position when rigor mortis set in.
Dragging or being tied in that position would make sense.

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

Regarding her arms above her head: I read someone on here suggesting that she was strangled whilst on her stomach (sorry I can't find the source) I'm then guessing she was picked up and laid on her back ontop of the blanket. Her arms would have naturally fallen above her head (before rigor set in), no?

 

[sedndun]

Patsy and her sisters threw up their hands multiple times during the funeral.

Lifting one's hands in prayer is seen as an act of supplication.

Psalm 28:2
"Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle."

Psalm 141:2
"Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice."

 

[kanzz]

Has anyone figured out why her hands were above her head when she died? Were they tied to something to keep her from fighting?
I don't see anyone having their arms above their head if someone was strangling them. It just seems to me to be a strange position for her to have been in.

I am assuming that JBR was unconscious when she was strangled and died on while her belly, as evidenced by the urine stains on her garments; and that she was placed on her back fairly soon thereafter, as evidenced by livor mortis, and before rigor mortis set in.

imo - Her arms being over her head was only a part of the staging (for dramatic effect). I think that the person who was tying the cord around her wrists didn't want to have to look at JonBenet's face while they were putting that cord there. Also, this would have been the easiest way to do it.

Or, maybe because that is where her arms fell when she was placed there. That's also a possibility.

It doesn't seem to me that the cord would have been used to drag her. The ME was able to slip two fingers between the cord and her wrist. (two adult fingers) I would think the cords would have slipped off her wrists if they'd have been under that much tension. Also, the position of the remaining cord was over her shirt sleeve. Would someone who had dragged her go to the trouble to reposition it? I have my doubts.

 

[BBB167893]

You might believe the Ramsey's are liars because they don't know what happened.

No, it's because they can be shown to have lied. Big difference, that.

And typical of Boulder Cops thinking they were robbed of their opportunity to interrogate the Ramseys into confessing to the crime,

They most certainly WERE robbed of that opportunity.

when they sent the science to the lab they were sure it would back up their circumstantial evidence. Only it didn't.

Be more specific. Because a lot of things from the lab DID back up their circumstantial evidence.

and then out of hubris or whatever, BPD decides to keep it a secret from the DA; a lie of omission.

Because they knew the DA couldn't be trusted.

I'm pretty disappointed in the Boulder Police because they are the liars and they created this media extravaganza that has changed Boulder forever.

Wrong on both counts. The Ramseys have repeatedly lied (I believe andreww once used the term "lied like thieves"), and more importantly, THEY were the ones who fired the first shot in the media war. And they fought it a lot dirtier than the BPD did. Ask Ellis Armistead sometime. That probably wouldn't work, though, because I have no doubt he was sworn to silence on pain of confidentiality agreement.

And on a personal note, from what this case has shown me, Boulder NEEDED changing.

That graphic autopsy image upstream of JonBenet. How do you look at that and see staging?

WE don't. The investigators did. And speaking for myself, it's the things I DON'T see that tell the tale.

It's just horrible what happened to this girl.

That's one thing we can ALL agree on.

And she was alive when that garotte went around her neck. Red before dead as a Whitson says.

Which proves what exactly?

 

[Userid]

Regarding her arms above her head: I read someone on here suggesting that she was strangled whilst on her stomach (sorry I can't find the source) I'm then guessing she was picked up and laid on her back ontop of the blanket. Her arms would have naturally fallen above her head (before rigor set in), no?

Yes, you guess correctly in the sense that she was on her strangled and moved. Many (Kolar, for one, if I remember right) law enforcement officials believe that the actual murder/strangulation took place just outside the wine cellar door, where the urine stain was found (i.e. the room before the wine cellar room, where PR's paint tray was found). JBR had lost bladder control upon death, and it was believed she was face-down. She was then obviously moved to the wine cellar, wrapped inside a blanket, and placed on her back. I also believe that this is when the wrist ligatures were applied. Then her hands were left over her head purposefully, as it was a part of the staging.

I don't know if you're correct in assuming that her arm would have "naturally fallen above her head." I don't really understand how arms would naturally fall above one's head. The entire body was wrapped in a blanket, other than her head and arms. I believe that the arms were purposefully left unwrapped and exposed.

 

[EtherealMoonRose]

Yes, you guess correctly in the sense that she was on her strangled and moved. Many (Kolar, for one, if I remember right) law enforcement officials believe that the actual murder/strangulation took place just outside the wine cellar door, where the urine stain was found (i.e. the room before the wine cellar room, where PR's paint tray was found). JBR had lost bladder control upon death, and it was believed she was face-down. She was then obviously moved to the wine cellar, wrapped inside a blanket, and placed on her back. I also believe that this is when the wrist ligatures were applied. Then her hands were left over her head purposefully, as it was a part of the staging.

I don't know if you're correct in assuming that her arm would have "naturally fallen above her head." I don't really understand how arms would naturally fall above one's head. The entire body was wrapped in a blanket, other than her head and arms. I believe that the arms were purposefully left unwrapped and exposed.

Well that's just how I pictured it especially if she was dragged at some point. But you're right her arms were probably moved as part of the staging.

 

[andreww]

Always wondered if Burke dragged her by her arms and left her. He then runs off to bed and JBR isn't discovered missing for several hours. By this point, rigor has set in and her arms are forever raised.

And this may sound morbid, but how exactly would they get her arms down for her burial?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Always wondered if Burke dragged her by her arms and left her. He then runs off to bed and JBR isn't discovered missing for several hours. By this point, rigor has set in and her arms are forever raised.

And this may sound morbid, but how exactly would they get her arms down for her burial?

I think the limbs relax after a while..