Discussion of "Overkill - The Unsolved Murder of Jon Benet" doco crime scene footage

[UKGuy]

Always wondered if Burke dragged her by her arms and left her. He then runs off to bed and JBR isn't discovered missing for several hours. By this point, rigor has set in and her arms are forever raised.

And this may sound morbid, but how exactly would they get her arms down for her burial?

andreww,
The arms above the head are not accidental, either, as you suggest, rigor maybe played a role, or its deliberate staging by whomever put her in the wine-cellar?

Maybe this aspect is what allows Kolar to claim BDI All, since the parents could not reverse the rigor mortis?

Wrapping JonBenet in a blanket meant leaving her arms above her head, anyway why would her killer want to wrap her in a blanket?

Another possibility, think on JR carrying JonBenet above and away from his body after he found her, i.e. he knew, is that the blanket acted as a buffer between Jonbenet and the person relocating her from say upstairs to downstairs?

Rigor Mortis reverses itself in the opposite order from which it began, so after a set period the body is moveable again.

.
.

 

[andreww]

andreww,
The arms above the head are not accidental, either, as you suggest, rigor maybe played a role, or its deliberate staging by whomever put her in the wine-cellar?

Maybe this aspect is what allows Kolar to claim BDI All, since the parents could not reverse the rigor mortis?

Wrapping JonBenet in a blanket meant leaving her arms above her head, anyway why would her killer want to wrap her in a blanket?

Another possibility, think on JR carrying JonBenet above and away from his body after he found her, i.e. he knew, is that the blanket acted as a buffer between Jonbenet and the person relocating her from say upstairs to downstairs?

Rigor Mortis reverses itself in the opposite order from which it began, so after a set period the body is moveable again.

.
.

Interesting. I've always wondered if she was brought upstairs at some point. BDI makes sense to me however I can't figure the fibre and blood in her bed, or the wet red turtleneck for that matter. I'm sure that played a part, not sure how though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UKGuy]

Interesting. I've always wondered if she was brought upstairs at some point. BDI makes sense to me however I can't figure the fibre and blood in her bed, or the wet red turtleneck for that matter. I'm sure that played a part, not sure how though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

andreww,
I thought the fiber had been shown to be from forensic contamination? JonBenet might have been wearing the red turtleneck in bed, then BR attempted to wash it clean, or it was used as a revised staging effect?

The blood could have come from her nose, or from anything she came in contact with?

Why is the bed in such a state of disarray, you might think they would have made it look like JonBenet had just been scooped from her bed?


For me the case is BDI, no way is PR going to kill JonBenet to keep JR close!

If the case were PDI or JDI then they had all night to clean up, and get their staging right, did they, no way!

What parent is going to think, now I know BR did this, so just to confuse the cops, I'll dress JonBenet in BR's long johns, and I'll fling in her niece's size-12's, that will deflect attention away from BR.

I hope once JR has left us Kolar gives an interview where he explains all the crazy stuff, since BR going from zero to homicide hero is seriously weird!

.

 

[andreww]

andreww,
I thought the fiber had been shown to be from forensic contamination? JonBenet might have been wearing the red turtleneck in bed, then BR attempted to wash it clean, or it was used as a revised staging effect?

The blood could have come from her nose, or from anything she came in contact with?

Why is the bed in such a state of disarray, you might think they would have made it look like JonBenet had just been scooped from her bed?


For me the case is BDI, no way is PR going to kill JonBenet to keep JR close!

If the case were PDI or JDI then they had all night to clean up, and get their staging right, did they, no way!

What parent is going to think, now I know BR did this, so just to confuse the cops, I'll dress JonBenet in BR's long johns, and I'll fling in her niece's size-12's, that will deflect attention away from BR.

I hope once JR has left us Kolar gives an interview where he explains all the crazy stuff, since BR going from zero to homicide hero is seriously weird!

.

I was talking about rope fibres being found in her bed, not red sweater fibres. I'm not 100% on that but I seem to recall reading it.

The sweater is there and can't be overlooked. It's part of the puzzle. We know Patsy had wanted her to wear it to the Whites so it must have been clean, so how does it end up soiled and wet? Doesn't seem like something she put on for bed does it. Maybe she put it on to play when she got home? Maybe she was wearing it when she was attacked? Maybe that mucous on her face was on the sweater as well? The sweater isn't something she would wear to bed so it needed to be dealt with. Who knows?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Miz Adventure]

Was that red sweater ever bagged as evidence?

 

[HarmonyE.]

Was that red sweater ever bagged as evidence?

I thought the Ramseys did not send the clothing they were wearing that night into LE until much, much later. And at that point, no one was sure whether they'd sent the actual clothing or replacements.

 

[Dowls90]

Hi All,

I am new to this website and fairly new to this case. I have just watched the video featuring the crimescene photos.

I searched the thread and couldn't find any other mention of it so please forgive me if this is being repeated.

At 48 seconds & 1minute 45 seconds in they have pictures of knots used. [video=dailymotion;x57taej]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57taej[/video]
Is it just me or do they look like non-standard knots? I myself know nothing about knots so could be completely wrong but this leads to my question.. did Burke or his father have any scout training?

ED

 

[Miz Adventure]

Hi Dowls90,

Yes Burke was a scout and knew all about knots. The whole family were sailors, they had two large boats so they would have known all the different knots.

The knot used on the strangulation tape was called a Prusik, a fairly common one (so I'm told), and an easy one to tie.

 

[Dowls90]

Hi Dowls90,

Yes Burke was a scout and knew all about knots. The whole family were sailors, they had two large boats so they would have known all the different knots.

The knot used on the strangulation tape was called a Prusik, a fairly common one (so I'm told), and an easy one to tie.

Hi Miz Adventure,

Interesting! Thank you for clarifying that for me.

ED

 

[andreww]

I thought the Ramseys did not send the clothing they were wearing that night into LE until much, much later. And at that point, no one was sure whether they'd sent the actual clothing or replacements.

We are not talking about Patsy's red sweater that she was wearing, we are talking about JBs red sweater that was found wet and balled up on her bathroom counter.

 

[kanzz]

Hi All,

I am new to this website and fairly new to this case. I have just watched the video featuring the crimescene photos.

I searched the thread and couldn't find any other mention of it so please forgive me if this is being repeated.

At 48 seconds & 1minute 45 seconds in they have pictures of knots used. [video=dailymotion;x57taej]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x57taej[/video]
Is it just me or do they look like non-standard knots? I myself know nothing about knots so could be completely wrong but this leads to my question.. did Burke or his father have any scout training?

ED

BBM
Hi Dowls90 - Welcome!

When you say, "non-standard knots" - I totally agree. A few different names have been applied to these knots, but if you compare the crime scene photos the knots that are being named, it just doesn't quite match, imo. Your description of them being non-standard is quite apt.

IDI people want to say these knots were elaborate, sophisticated, intricate, etc. To me, that's a smoke screen. They are amateurish. Maybe meant to be some kind of particular knot, but missing the mark.


(close-ups of knots and other photos available at the link in my signature)

 

[Cranberry]

We are not talking about Patsy's red sweater that she was wearing, we are talking about JBs red sweater that was found wet and balled up on her bathroom counter.

In the 12/27 search warrant there is a velvet turtleneck (47BAB) listed. When was the last time JB was seen in public wearing the red turtleneck? Was it at the 12/22 (Sunday) Denver Mall performance?

 

[kanzz]

I was talking about rope fibres being found in her bed, not red sweater fibres. I'm not 100% on that but I seem to recall reading it.

The sweater is there and can't be overlooked. It's part of the puzzle. We know Patsy had wanted her to wear it to the Whites so it must have been clean, so how does it end up soiled and wet? Doesn't seem like something she put on for bed does it. Maybe she put it on to play when she got home? Maybe she was wearing it when she was attacked? Maybe that mucous on her face was on the sweater as well? The sweater isn't something she would wear to bed so it needed to be dealt with. Who knows?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

andreww - When you say "sweater", I assume you talking about the turtleneck. Although Thomas speculated in his book that it might have been soiled and wet, I think it was just that - speculation. I don't think this was ever proven, and I read somewhere (apologies, can't find the link) that he later said he didn't know if the shirt actually was wet.

With as much urine as there obviously was in her bladder when she died, I don't think she had wet the bed earlier. I question whether she was actually ever in bed that night.

There was mucous on the right upper sleeve of the white shirt she was wearing when she died.

I just don't know if the turtleneck has any relevance to the murder or not, but I'm guessing it doesn't.

 

[otg]

Hi Dowls90,

Yes Burke was a scout and knew all about knots. The whole family were sailors, they had two large boats so they would have known all the different knots.

The knot used on the strangulation tape was called a Prusik, a fairly common one (so I'm told), and an easy one to tie.

Sorry, my friend, I hate to disagree, but I don't want a misconception to become accepted as fact. The knot tied to the paintbrush is not a Prusik. A Prusik hitch (named after its supposed inventor) is a specific kind of knot used to attach a rope or cord to another. Not that it couldn't be used to attach a cord to a stick or some other object, but that is what it is designed for and it's not what was tied around the paintbrush.

The word "Prusik" not only refers to the knot itself, but has come to be accepted as a verb to describe using it (in mountain climbing). Interestingly, it is often used with a "crab" (carabiner) for attaching another rope or cord as shown in the following illustration. There are many varied shapes and sizes of different carabiners for different purposes and preferences of the user.

What's significant about this is what is shown in one of the crime scene photos. Smit claimed the imprint in the following photo was a bare footprint the same size as his granddaughter's foot. Apparently Smit didn't realize the ABFO scales are in centimeters and not inches. The following photo shows what I think is the imprint of a carabiner. Most know that John Andrew was a mountain climbing hobbyist and probably had some of these devices in the house. This device is commonly used with the type of cord found on JonBenet's body.

For comparison:

More about the Prusik hitch:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prusik

 

[Cranberry]

Interesting otg, about the carabiner. Now I think the drawing on JB's palm looks more like a carabiner than a heart. yikes. On the subject of mountain climbing, I agree with the theory that maybe there was a backpack in JAR's room with the bigger brown rope. The backpack could have been on the chair, moved to the floor or wherever when JR was in there with LA discussing what to say to the caller. Just imo.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Sorry, my friend, I hate to disagree, but I don't want a misconception to become accepted as fact. The knot tied to the paintbrush is not a Prusik. A Prusik hitch (named after its supposed inventor) is a specific kind of knot used to attach a rope or cord to another. Not that it couldn't be used to attach a cord to a stick or some other object, but that is what it is designed for and it's not what was tied around the paintbrush.

My apologies. I must have read this wrong info somewhere - I think it may have been on the Solving JonBenet website. Personally I know nothing about knots.

Thanks for straightening things out.

 

[TeaTime]

otg - that is a great find. I don't know how this fits in, but it is interesting.

 

[AlGx]

Hi everyone!

New to the forum, os bare with me!
I have been intrigued by the JonBenet case for many years now..

I was looking at one of the pictures of JonBenet by the Christmas tree, couldn't help but notice that her left arm is raised as in it's not on the floor. I have heard that they found a match/cigar box in the wine cellar- does anyone know if her arm was lying on top of the match box? Not sure if this has been mentioned/noticed so apologies if it has!!

 

[BBB167893]

Hi everyone!

New to the forum, os bare with me!
I have been intrigued by the JonBenet case for many years now..

Welcome, AlGx. (How do you pronounce that, anyway?)

 

[AlGx]

Welcome, AlGx. (How do you pronounce that, anyway?)

Thanks! Gx is short for my last name, so kind of prounounced as ALGix

Anyway- did anyone know if the cigar boxes were taken in as evidence?