Questions you'd like answers to...

[Userid]

(Snipped to address specific point)
Patsy says they were up in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

So if the case were PDI do you not think Patsy would have gone to the bother of making sure there were size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

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Someone would have removed the package to distance themselves from the crime; someone who was also staging with PR; someone who had done so without telling PR perhaps; someone who had hired his own lawyer.

Realistically, the underwear package was grabbed from her drawer, then staged, then collected with all the other evidence (i.e. the other end of the paintbrush that was never recovered, the latex gloves that no doubt were used during this phase, etc.) and stashed/hidden until they were disposed. What would the point have been to put the package back into the drawer after using a pair for the staging? What if blood got on the package, etc.? Regardless, there would have been no point in keeping the package and/or the remaining pairs of underwear; it just would have been an unnecessary risk, particularly when they were disposing of items anyway.

 

[Gnat]

I have never read anywhere that pieces of paper were found on JonBenet's cheek, but I can't definitively answer that.snipped for space.

Wasn't there piece's of a brown paper sack found in the body bag that JBR was in?

 

[icedtea4me]

If PR staged this whole thing writing the RN even putting the cap back on the pen and putting it away why didn't she clean up the pineapple snack? She was a very orderly women.*snip*

Maybe because the bowl of pineapple and cream wasn't meant to be put away.

 

[icedtea4me]

I thought the size 12's were out of a 'days of the week' set that PR bought for JR's daughter? *snip*

Patsy stated in one of her BPD interviews (June 1998?) that the underwear was for her niece Jenny Davis, the daughter of Patsy's sister Paulette and her husband Grant.

 

[Userid]

Maybe because the bowl of pineapple and cream wasn't meant to be put away.

Perhaps. I've always assumed that it was simply overlooked. These weren't experienced murderers/cover-up artists here. JR and PR were probably so focused on staging other elements of the crime, that they simply overlooked the bowl and glass in the dining room, which was located on the other side of the house. That, or time was of the essence, and they had no time to dispose of the food and/or clean/put away the dishes. There were many more pressing issues to take care of beforehand, obviously.

 

[Jolamom]

Perhaps. I've always assumed that it was simply overlooked. These weren't experienced murderers/cover-up artists here. JR and PR were probably so focused on staging other elements of the crime, that they simply overlooked the bowl and glass in the dining room, which was located on the other side of the house. That, or time was of the essence, and they had no time to dispose of the food and/or clean/put away the dishes. There were many more pressing issues to take care of beforehand, obviously.

I have rather thought that Patsy and John may have been unaware that the pineapple and tea where involved that night. That is why I don't think the pineapple was a trigger to the events that occurred. If it had been, that most likely would have been relayed to one of the parents and it would have vanished too. As for the pantie, i think they came from the basement because if they came from upstairs, it would have made more sense to leave the rest of the package and just take the one day out because that would have fit with the later story told by Patsy. The lack of any of the remaining package of underwear or the package caused a flaw in her story that was hard to overlook. If Patsy was going to claim she readied JonBenèt for bed, why not just change the underwear completely to another pair? Why try to emulate what underwear she had on earlier that evening? Too much over thinking if you ask me.

 

[Userid]

I have rather thought that Patsy and John may have been unaware that the pineapple and tea where involved that night. That is why I don't think the pineapple was a trigger to the events that occurred. If it had been, that most likely would have been relayed to one of the parents and it would have vanished too. As for the pantie, i think they came from the basement because if they came from upstairs, it would have made more sense to leave the rest of the package and just take the one day out because that would have fit with the later story told by Patsy. The lack of any of the remaining package of underwear or the package caused a flaw in her story that was hard to overlook. If Patsy was going to claim she readied JonBenèt for bed, why not just change the underwear completely to another pair? Why try to emulate what underwear she had on earlier that evening? Too much over thinking if you ask me.

To me, there would have been absolutely no point to hide the underwear in the wine cellar. There is no evidence that the package of underwear was ever in the wine cellar. Now, if other gifts for other individuals (other than BR) were found among the partially opened gifts, then I might say you have a point, and that there is a good chance the underwear could have been down there, but that isn't the case. The only gifts that were found in the wine cellar, were BR's. So because of this fact, I believe the underwear was never in the wine cellar. There's no way of knowing for certain either way, but nonetheless, that's how I interpret what evidence was actually left.

I see your point about just taking one pair and leaving the rest, but think of it this way: they are trying to stage that an intruder came in and did this. If they left the rest of the package in her drawer -- or anywhere in the house, for that matter -- how in the world would they have explained that? Meaning, how did the killer know where JBR's panties were? How would he have ever known they were in that particular drawer, which was in her bathroom, no less? They wouldn't have been able to answer those questions -- they knew this, which is why they simply got rid of them all together -- because the only person who would know those panties were in that drawer, would have been someone who lives there.

 

[UKGuy]

Someone would have removed the package to distance themselves from the crime; someone who was also staging with PR; someone who had done so without telling PR perhaps; someone who had hired his own lawyer.

Realistically, the underwear package was grabbed from her drawer, then staged, then collected with all the other evidence (i.e. the other end of the paintbrush that was never recovered, the latex gloves that no doubt were used during this phase, etc.) and stashed/hidden until they were disposed. What would the point have been to put the package back into the drawer after using a pair for the staging? What if blood got on the package, etc.? Regardless, there would have been no point in keeping the package and/or the remaining pairs of underwear; it just would have been an unnecessary risk, particularly when they were disposing of items anyway.

Userid,
Sure, so if we rule out Patsy that leaves John or Burke?

BBM: The point being it would corroborate Patsy's account. With no size-12's extant, everything is in play.

.

 

[Gigitmdy]

You just cleared up for me what the issue of the panties & staging are about. Thank you!

 

[Gnat]

Did JBR and BR share the same bathroom?

 

[icedtea4me]

Did JBR and BR share the same bathroom?

No.

 

[Cottonstar]

The police were working with the FBI, but agent Johnson and agent Johnson (no relation) never showed-up at the house. From my reading, they seem to be oddly absent from the house and the real crime but involved. Once the body was found and it became a murder, they only had an advisory role. That was a true stroke of luck for the killer. At this time in Boulder's history, you could have dumped a body at the entrance of the police station. If they discovered you were the murderer, the DA would have plead it down to probation.

Not really luck when you consider that JR "found" JB, just 10-15 minutes before the FBI arrived at the Ramsey house.


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[BoldBear]

Someone would have removed the package to distance themselves from the crime; someone who was also staging with PR; someone who had done so without telling PR perhaps; someone who had hired his own lawyer.

Realistically, the underwear package was grabbed from her drawer, then staged, then collected with all the other evidence (i.e. the other end of the paintbrush that was never recovered, the latex gloves that no doubt were used during this phase, etc.) and stashed/hidden until they were disposed. What would the point have been to put the package back into the drawer after using a pair for the staging? What if blood got on the package, etc.? Regardless, there would have been no point in keeping the package and/or the remaining pairs of underwear; it just would have been an unnecessary risk, particularly when they were disposing of items anyway.

And then we have the counter argument....

What if the police would have found the package? What would it prove? Of course if it was clear plastic and had the possibility of finger prints. Still, if Patsy's note pad and pen were sitting on the table along with a roll of black tape and extra clothes line, would it point to the killer? What if they were all found on the kitchen island next to the flashlight? One of the victim's advocates may have cleaned them up before anyone ever realized they had anything to do with the killing. Sometimes these small details might not make any difference at all.

Drawers can get pretty crowded fast. I wouldn't have put underwear that my daughter needed to grow into in such a place. No. These would have been tossed on the top shelf of her closet--close enough that she would have known they were her property, but not in the way of the dolls, the toys and her everyday clothes.

 

[Circulo]

Thank you to Boldbear and Thurston for your thoughtful replies to my question.

Not wishing to derail discussion and re-invent the wheel here but am struck by the startling difference in the handling of the Ramsey 'kidnap' compared to the Geschke case by the FBI. Mrs Geschke arrived home to find 4 x FBI officers in situ and settling in; no pre-warning, announcements or discussions, they simply took over.

We know from the Ramsey case that the FBI commented that a 3-page ransom note was 'unheard-of', that the victim was most likely already dead due to the graphic description in the note and that they advised JR to 'ask to speak to JBR' should the kidnappers call. We heard that someone was off picking up the recording 'kit' but as the FBI did not show up until after the body was found, was this equipment ever located/utilised?

Seems a 'cavalier' attitude indeed, bearing in mind that from the first call to LE on the 26/12, it was going on for seven hours since JBR was last seen alive and the FBI didn't even show up.

More poignantly, it would seem that, compared to the Geschke case, the Ramsey case was never taken seriously by the FBI as a kidnapping. I wonder why?

 

[BoldBear]

IMO I can see BR and JBR after eating pineapple going down to the WC to check out more packages. I have trouble agreeing with fdasdthe idea that a 10 year old boy would be playing sex games. Too young imo

I agree that it's too young, but it does happen and I hate to say that.

Back when I was 5 or 6, I went to a friends house. We sat at the bottom of the basement stairs and laughed at the funny cartoons in a magazine. Some devil with horns or something. Her father came down the stairs and scolded the two of us and it was kind of weird. We were just laughing at the cartoons. We had no idea it was wrong. Of course it was a Playboy. I'll never forget how much I loved her and her sister. We played together and danced to 45s played on the hify. 1-2-3 Red Light. This isn't a sorted story about a child and sex. We had no real idea what that was. It is one about how childhood memories are treasured, touchable, just a real as the car keys in your pocket. They'll always be there frozen that way. She died in a house fire one night just after her parent's house party. The fireman reached through the basement window and grabbed her sister. When he went back to get her, she had left the bed. We always believe she got up to alert her parents about the fire but was overcome by the smoke. I can still see the burned-out windows and the way the soot drifted up the concrete foundation and the brick over those basement windows. Children grow up with memories of death too. I so wish she wouldn't have died. Every time I hear James Taylor singing, "You've got a friend," I think of her.

I'm sorry. I got lost, but that was nice to write because I haven't thought about her in a while.

On a more clinical side, it isn't out of the question for children of similar ages to experiment. The simplest example is "I'll show you mine if you show me yours." It can go further than that, but it's more done out of curiosity and not sexual drive. Of course there are the other issues such as a child who is sexually abused might introduce other children to that behavior. And then there's the adult...and this is where I have fantasies that someone should be dead. What do you do when you find out your father abused a child? What do you do with that? How do you live with it?

My mind is wandering tonight.

(Unrelated to the above paragraphs.) I've been working on the time when Beth died and John's faith was in crisis. Patsy had to go through that too, but it eventually lead to the one photo of Beth in the bedroom and the collage of photos kept in his private bathroom. This is where the fairy tale all started to turn.

 

[BoldBear]

Wasn't there piece's of a brown paper sack found in the body bag that JBR was in?

There were brown fibers found with the body. Her hands were put in paper bags for transport. There was evidence of white paper fibers. And there was an evidence bag with the rope found in JAR's room that created some confusion if it was part of the evidence; it was not. So I'm confused with what you might refer to as a brown paper bag found in the body bag.

 

[BoldBear]

Thank you to Boldbear and Thurston for your thoughtful replies to my question.

Not wishing to derail discussion and re-invent the wheel here but am struck by the startling difference in the handling of the Ramsey 'kidnap' compared to the Geschke case by the FBI. Mrs Geschke arrived home to find 4 x FBI officers in situ and settling in; no pre-warning, announcements or discussions, they simply took over.

We know from the Ramsey case that the FBI commented that a 3-page ransom note was 'unheard-of', that the victim was most likely already dead due to the graphic description in the note and that they advised JR to 'ask to speak to JBR' should the kidnappers call. We heard that someone was off picking up the recording 'kit' but as the FBI did not show up until after the body was found, was this equipment ever located/utilised?

Seems a 'cavalier' attitude indeed, bearing in mind that from the first call to LE on the 26/12, it was going on for seven hours since JBR was last seen alive and the FBI didn't even show up.

More poignantly, it would seem that, compared to the Geschke case, the Ramsey case was never taken seriously by the FBI as a kidnapping. I wonder why?

There's a timeline here that I'm not following. There were suspicions about the ransom note immediately by members of the BPD. I don't remember the person who said that, but it's easy enough to look it up. Yes, the FBI did say that, but I don't know where that was in the timeline.

When we talk about Boulder we're talking about the People's Republic of Boulder (that's what it's often called here in Colorado). It's a college town, a tech town, a hippie yuppie town. It was often known in tech sectors as a magnet storage hot spot in the US--kind of its own type of Silicon Valley. It had one of the original nodes on the ARPANET, the precursor to the internet. It was the hom of Robert A. Heinlein, author of "Stranger in a Strange Land." And it was the place where Mork from Ork landed in an egg from outer space. CU was the home of 420 day. The college has been consistently voted one of the top 10 party campuses in the US. They even had party riots in the streets of Boulder. And John and Patsy were so close to campus, they could hear the marching band practicing from the bedroom. When you go to Boulder, you really are a stranger in a strange land. And the way Boulder is governed is just as strange with odd building rules keeping an undeveloped zone around the city and height restrictions.

Jonbenet was discovered kidnapped the day after Christmas. Boulder LE only had a skeleton crew working. Many of their most experienced officers were out on Christmas vacation. I would assume the same would be true for the FBI. In addition to that, Boulder's police department was a little lax on policies at the time. They weren't running things by the book and heaven forbid if you ever offended anyone you were arresting--you'd pay a price. The DA was just as lax too often plea bargaining cases that should have been slam dunks. I've hear Boulder's PD referred to being as backward as Mayberry, but that's not accurate. It wasn't Mayberry, it was too liberal for that. It was if the 60's hippies were now running a college town.

You question why the FBI didn't step in immediately. It was the People's Republic of Boulder and it was the day after Christmas.

Oh and Linda Arndt picked-up the only police recorder that was used in the house that day. It was hooked-up to the telephone for the kidnappers--not like you'd ever want to record the questions you were asking the parents.

 

[Circulo]

Thank you BoldBear. High Days and Holidays, eh? 'Cause nothing ever happens at Christmas..

 

[Userid]

And then we have the counter argument....

What if the police would have found the package? What would it prove? Of course if it was clear plastic and had the possibility of finger prints. Still, if Patsy's note pad and pen were sitting on the table along with a roll of black tape and extra clothes line, would it point to the killer? What if they were all found on the kitchen island next to the flashlight? One of the victim's advocates may have cleaned them up before anyone ever realized they had anything to do with the killing. Sometimes these small details might not make any difference at all.

Drawers can get pretty crowded fast. I wouldn't have put underwear that my daughter needed to grow into in such a place. No. These would have been tossed on the top shelf of her closet--close enough that she would have known they were her property, but not in the way of the dolls, the toys and her everyday clothes.

Again, it would have proven that a stranger would have somehow known where the panties were located, which would have been impossible -- just as it was impossible for a stranger to know exactly where the pen and pads of paper should be stored in the house.

If these items were found on the kitchen island, yes, I do think it would make a substantial difference all the same -- so I think I disagree with you there -- because it would suppose that the killer was still able to find all of the items in the house all the same, including the underwear. A stranger, who had never set foot in this house before, would have never been able to find all of these items, but especially, the underwear.

You say you wouldn't have put the underwear there -- you would have put in the closet or somewhere else. I can see this point, but I would say that JBR would have simply retrieved it from the closet and put it with her other underwear, even if she was commanded to keep them separate.

 

[Cottonstar]

IMO I can see BR and JBR after eating pineapple going down to the WC to check out more packages. I have trouble agreeing with the idea that a 10 year old boy would be playing sex games. Too young imo

That's because you don't hear about it. The most common sexual abuser of children, is other children.


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