OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

[huxley72]

As far as I know one girl reported hearing "momma momma" late but she was in another camp site. So if she heard Kiowa then most everyone in that unit would have heard it. As far sightings, one girl said that some someone peared into her tent then left, and another girl said she saw a man's leg near the latrine late at night. Now they could be legit as far as the accounts. Or they could be imagined if the interviews were conducted after the girls knew what happened. Carla said she heard the animal noises and then shined the flashlight and it stopped. I don't think it was Gene Hart, because why would he do that to attract attention. If he did that during the act which he did before then was he doing the act then? It really does not tie Hart to the crime as that was used as circumstancial evidence against him. It probably was an animal. Its a spooky case that would make the scariest of movies, but it was real life.

 

[huxley72]

I, too, have to wonder if it was done by someone who the camp hired to help put up tents or do basic park maintenance...I mean, who was responsible for that? Was it paid labor? Or volunteer? I have not seen any mention of that anywhere. Or is that something Camp Scott's caretaker would have done? Considering how big that camp was - what, over 400 acres? That is a large piece of land for even just one man to keep in maintenance so I am sure they had help with some people coming in to do the mowing, remove dead branches from the dirt trails, etc. And, MOO, it would explain a lot of what happened before and after the murders took place (such as the note in the empty donut box, stuff being stolen, etc).

It would definitely help if it was known who was involved with that general campground maintenance I described...you never know, something could show up.

The caretaker did have hired help to put up the tents. I tend to think it was hired help from the year before The reason being is that a couselors tent was burglarized the year before according to the caretaker. He said that some guy came in on three counselors I believe during the training week the year before but they didnt know who it was. Now this crime was envisioned a year before and planned that far out, which could lead back to Hart or someone else.

 

[Betty P]

I, too, have to wonder if it was done by someone who the camp hired to help put up tents or do basic park maintenance...I mean, who was responsible for that? Was it paid labor? Or volunteer? I have not seen any mention of that anywhere. Or is that something Camp Scott's caretaker would have done? Considering how big that camp was - what, over 400 acres? That is a large piece of land for even just one man to keep in maintenance so I am sure they had help with some people coming in to do the mowing, remove dead branches from the dirt trails, etc. And, MOO, it would explain a lot of what happened before and after the murders took place (such as the note in the empty donut box, stuff being stolen, etc).

It would definitely help if it was known who was involved with that general campground maintenance I described...you never know, something could show up.

Ranger Ben Woodward was the person who managed Camp Scott on a full time basis. He lived there all year in a house with his wife and kids. He'd been working there for 3 yrs, IIRC. In his pre-trial testimony for the GLH trial, he said that several days before the arrival of the campers, he had 3 people come out to help put up the tents. It took them 3 or 4 days. One was a local LE officer, another was a local man and his wife, friends of the LEO. The other was someone who lived nearby who was known to them all. Ranger Ben knew most people in town and was well acquainted with local LE, including sheriff deputies and a OK Highway Patrol officer who lived nearby.

All were questioned. LIke everyone else Ranger Ben took a poly and submitted fingerprints, etc.

Link to pre-trial transcripts, list of witnesses, etc.

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/GLH Trial - list of witnesses.pdf

http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/PreTrialVolume2.pdf


There were no strange cars that came into the campground that night. The killers had to reach the crime scene on foot, hiking through some pretty dense forest and underbrush for quite a distance. At night, with little light.

 

[Betty P]

The caretaker did have hired help to put up the tents. I tend to think it was hired help from the year before The reason being is that a couselors tent was burglarized the year before according to the caretaker. He said that some guy came in on three counselors I believe during the training week the year before but they didnt know who it was. Now this crime was envisioned a year before and planned that far out, which could lead back to Hart or someone else.

Yes, he was asked about that incident from the year before. He said he went to see what happened, but when he searched the area afterwards, he couldn't find anyone. Whomever it was, they either left the area quickly or were good at hiding in the woods.

 

[huxley72]

Yes, he was asked about that incident from the year before. He said he went to see what happened, but when he searched the area afterwards, he couldn't find anyone. Whomever it was, they either left the area quickly or were good at hiding in the woods.

Yea the ones who helped the year of the murdered were cleared but how bout the year before. It seemed to start getting strange the year before with the incident, it had to be connected.

 

[Betty P]

Where has it been reported that campers and the counselors heard girls screaming and ignored them? Or screaming 'Mommy, Mommy" and ignored them?

The sounds of the cicadas alone were very, very loud. Girls were scaring each other, there was laughing and screaming going on.

I think the reports of girls hearing screaming and someone yelling "momma, momma" came from other units, not Kiowa.

Carla, Dee and the other counselor heard girls talking and laughing til late at night. They got up several times to check on the girls. The last time they got up was around 1 am, when a group of girls got up to go to the latrine and were slamming the door and toilet seats. Goofing off. Carla got up, went up there, met them on the path and took them back to their tents. That was when she heard the noise in the trees and shone her flashlight. An hour or so prior to that, Dee Elder got up when some girls were laughing and talking. She went to their tents to check and told them to go to sleep. The girls in Kiowa had the counselors up checking on them pretty much from the time they went to bed (around 10 pm) until 1 am. All 3 counselors were pretty tired at that point and none of the 3 reported hearing any other noises that night.

A lot of that discussion about incidents that were reported before was probably relevant to the lawsuit by the victims parents against the Girl Scout Council. As for whether the counselors ignored the girls screaming, it seems unlikely since they awakened every time they got up to go to the latrine or laughed and cut up. Not to say they weren't tired and maybe slept through something, but in the end, does it really help identify the killer?

 

[huxley72]

Were there any identifications of the intruder of the year before? What did he look like who were the counselors? It seems like a good starting point.

 

[HoneyWest]

I've read and listened to many accounts of this case and those details were repeated over and over. I'd have to do a lot of digging to find all the sources again. I thought it was common knowledge here! Beginning at 2:00, Carla heard screams, went to investigate, saw a flashlight in the woods, went back to bed. Other campers heard mommy mommy and reported scary noises all night long. I'm certainly not making this up in my own imagination or "misremembering" considering I only learned of this case in the last 4 weeks. I devoured everything I could get my hands on about this case, pouring over it for hours each day to get a solid handle on it. This information is all over out there ... look.

What we need to be careful about is trusting these podcasts, websites, and murder sites about details like this. I can tell you that no counselors ignored any screaming for 'Mommy, Mommy", or frightened screaming either, if they heard it. One of the girls did report hearing someone yelling "Mommy, Mommy".

Also debunked was the missing shoes that mysteriously showed up while LE was still investigating. This has been reported over and over as fact, when it was simply a pair of sneakers found returned to LE. Everyone's name was written on every article of clothing in permanent market and nobody's name was inside those shoes.

Then there's the whole "note" story that has been spun all over the web. In reality, it was a fellow scout playing a prank.

The counselors would have NEVER ignored frightened screams of terror or screams for Mommy if they heard them. They were, however having a hard time getting the girls to settle down and go to sleep.

 

[missgulfsouth]

I think what might have been done differently and perhaps prevented the murders of these three girls is just as important and relevant to the discussion as who committed them. I have zero desire or motive to embellish this case. What I have stated here is what I have learned from MANY sources. But I also have no desire to deny very real occurences and oversights that were stated to have happened. Not in an effort to place blame, but in order to learn a valuable lesson from history. One that those 3 little girls would want us all to learn from a horrific tragedy that was so preventable.

 

[HoneyWest]

On second thought, in reference to my post above ... my sources were three reputable true crime podcasts: Generation Why, No Sleep, and True Crime Brewery, every YouTube video I could find pertaining to this case, various links and documents already provided here on WS, several websites, a variety of forums, and a thesis written by a woman who was a young Scout at Camp Scott during the murders, she includes interviews with other fellow campers from that fateful night. I did reference her in an early post. The information I gathered was VAST, but since it is not MSM articles, you may feel free to ignore or discount it. If you choose to believe there were no sounds other than loud cicadas that night, that is your right. I choose to believe the many accounts of those who were there and say otherwise ... but will say no more about it here.

Yes, I'm familiar with her thesis and have been familiar with everyone in that thesis for years. Continue to gather information...current, local, old, and future for a couple of decades. You'd be surprised at the spin that occurs. I do not choose to believe there were no soundes other than cicadas, the girls were loud as well, as I stated before, lots of screaming, laughing, scaring each other, lots of trips to the latrine, etc.

 

[HoneyWest]

I think the reports of girls hearing screaming and someone yelling "momma, momma" came from other units, not Kiowa.

Carla, Dee and the other counselor heard girls talking and laughing til late at night. They got up several times to check on the girls. The last time they got up was around 1 am, when a group of girls got up to go to the latrine and were slamming the door and toilet seats. Goofing off. Carla got up, went up there, met them on the path and took them back to their tents. That was when she heard the noise in the trees and shone her flashlight. An hour or so prior to that, Dee Elder got up when some girls were laughing and talking. She went to their tents to check and told them to go to sleep. The girls in Kiowa had the counselors up checking on them pretty much from the time they went to bed (around 10 pm) until 1 am. All 3 counselors were pretty tired at that point and none of the 3 reported hearing any other noises that night.

A lot of that discussion about incidents that were reported before was probably relevant to the lawsuit by the victims parents against the Girl Scout Council. As for whether the counselors ignored the girls screaming, it seems unlikely since they awakened every time they got up to go to the latrine or laughed and cut up. Not to say they weren't tired and maybe slept through something, but in the end, does it really help identify the killer?

No, it doesn't help identify the killer, unfortunately. I would like to see, and would think everyone would like to see accurate facts being discussed, not little twists and extra details to make the story spookier or more provocative.

 

[Betty P]

Yea the ones who helped the year of the murdered were cleared but how bout the year before. It seemed to start getting strange the year before with the incident, it had to be connected.

It could have been any number of people, most likely males, who lived in the general area or were otherwise very familiar with the layout of Camp Scott. They would have to know it well enough to hike quite a way in the dark, through thick woods and be able to do so quietly, without attracting attention. Recall, other than Carla W, no one else heard anyone hiking through the woods.

Google Maps view of Camp Scott today (pretty much the same as it was in 1977

https://www.google.com/maps/place/C...53621354213d30!8m2!3d36.1596621!4d-95.1624413

Route to hike from Hwy 82 - would need to hike across the field, through the creek and through more woods across to opposite side of the camp to reach Kiowa

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.163...4!1sQ9c89scMn8kNlNR2Dm-QFA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

View from Hwy 82 & Spring Creek looking toward the NW where the southern end of Camp Scott is located about a mile away

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.148...4!1sB_i3fCcAHzrr60NfXZLwDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

There's also the route directly behind the Kiowa unit, from N440 Rd, where the killer/s would have to hike about 3/4 mile to Kiowa through a farmer's field and thick woods. The would also have to cross in open fields between two farm houses to get to the Camp Scott woods.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/C...53621354213d30!8m2!3d36.1596621!4d-95.1624413


Whomever it was, they needed to know the area very well to traverse it at night. They also needed to be a strong, experienced hiker.

.

 

[HoneyWest]

I think what might have been done differently and perhaps prevented the murders of these three girls is just as important and relevant to the discussion as who committed them. I have zero desire or motive to embellish this case. What I have stated here is what I have learned from MANY sources. But I also have no desire to deny very real occurences and oversights that were stated to have happened. Not in an effort to place blame, but in order to learn a valuable lesson from history. One that those 3 little girls would want us all to learn from a horrific tragedy that was so preventable.

I agree with what you're saying, but here, in this area, 40 years after these horrific, life-altering murders, i will go out on a limb and say this will not happen again in any girl scout camp or outing. This happened in 1977. The camp was not secured year round. Anyone could have walked into the camp while we were there. Nobody ever dreamed anyone would be hurt, or murdered at Camp Scott which had been running for years and years. It was unthinkable! In 2017 you might call them oversights but in 1977? No, it was 100% believed to be a safe and fun camp in the middle of nowhere for girls to learn and have fun.

 

[missgulfsouth]

Accurate facts. Not YouTube interviews with people who lived through it and investigated it. Not a thesis written by a Scout who was there, including interviews of several other scouts who were there, Not podcasts by people who have sourced their material and facts. Not Carla's own words that she was woken in the night by what she thought was a scream, went to investigate, got spooked by a flashlight and groaning sounds. Not accounts by girls who reported hearing scary sounds and footfall around the tents throughout the night. Those things didn't happen because they aren't in the written MSM or police records? Details that came out years later from girls suffering PTSD and survivors guilt? Who am I to say those things never happened? I wasn't there.

 

[HoneyWest]

Accurate facts. Not YouTube interviews with people who lived through it and investigated it. Not a thesis written by a Scout who was there, including interviews of several other scouts who were there, Not podcasts by people who have sourced their material and facts. Not Carla's own words that she was woken in the night by what she thought was a scream, went to investigate, got spooked by a flashlight and groaning sounds. Not accounts by girls who reported hearing scary sounds and footfall around the tents throughout the night. Those things didn't happen because they aren't in the written MSM or police records? Details that came out years later from girls suffering PTSD and survivors guilt? Who am I to say those things never happened? I wasn't there.

I believe every word Carla says. That's why I try to steer people away from sleuthing her as a suspect. I also have had to remind people who want lists of the names of the all the girls and all the counselors that these women, many of them are wrestling with PTSD and still do keep in touch. I know many of these people. I'd rather you not put words in my mouth about what I think did or did not happen when it comes to details. I specified a couple of things that were debunked and corrected your statement that the counselors ignored screams. I know for a fact they did not.

 

[huxley72]

How can i get a chance to read this thesis you guys are talking about.

 

[Hatfield]

The 3rd video at bottom in post #553 on pg 37 of this thread.

Listen to the father and what he says about his own son and his son's friends. He sounds very credible to me.

I am just learning some of the details of this case and I am linking below the 3rd video at bottom in post #553 on pg 37 of this thread.
Thanks Betty P for all the other links too. Some good information.

The boys sure did not sound like boy scouts at all. The father talked about his son and his friends who practically lived in the woods according to him.

The person who was convicted of killing his son over two pounds of pot and his brother did not sound like boy scouts to me. The one person went to prison for the murder and I read where the older brother was later convicted of rape with instrumentation of someone else much later.

My question is were these boys discussed here in detail and is there a chance one or more of them could have been involved or maybe even hung out with or known Hart?

The interview with the father just floored me because he was pretty convinced his son and friends may have been involved. The sneakers he wore and things they told him and something about knowing one of the girls or something.

Just wondering if that was discussed in detail here and what conclusions we came up with about the fathers statements. Was it debunked or still possible?

https://youtu.be/TJ41pYmYzOU

 

[missgulfsouth]

I believe every word Carla says. That's why I try to steer people away from sleuthing her as a suspect. I also have had to remind people who want lists of the names of the all the girls and all the counselors that these women, many of them are wrestling with PTSD and still do keep in touch. I know many of these people. I'd rather you not put words in my mouth about what I think did or did not happen when it comes to details. I specified a couple of things that were debunked and corrected your statement that the counselors ignored screams. I know for a fact they did not.

And I would rather you not suggest I'm making things up. I've read and watched the very same information that anyone else can easily find out there. You don't have a monopoly on facts in this case. I'm not adding to or taking away from anyone's account of what happened. There was some scary crap that went on that night and many people were spooked by what they heard in the dark. These murders did not happen quietly, that has been stated over and over and over again. I believe them.

 

[missgulfsouth]

How can i get a chance to read this thesis you guys are talking about.

The dissertation is available to read online. Search for: What Fear is Like by Amy C. Sullivan. She was a Girl Scout at Camp Scott that night and includes interviews with several other women who were also there.

 

[Vedder]

Regarding screams. There's a big difference between girls who scream and giggle and screech when they are excited and can't settle down, and screams of truly frightened girls being attacked. The second type would have gotten the counselors running to the girls.