IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #64

[deedee21]

Ron Logan once called the police because a stranger was inside one of the structures on his property. Does anyone remember if the guy was still there when LE arrived?

 

[gregjrichards]

(This case is really getting into my head...so many people look and dress like BG...I think I need to take a break from WS for own sanity....look fwd to celebrating with you guys when and if an arrest is made.)

I totally understand how you feel it is very frustrating and difficult to be patient. Thank you to you and everyone here for caring about justice for Abbey and Liberty. The monster will be caught law enforcement are going to be pursuing him relentlessly.

 

[JazzTune]

Well said Jazztune! There are ways to avoid leaving a virtual footprint........ The catfish theory has always been in the back of mind and thinking this was planned either in his own mind or having had contact with one of the girls. I always try to think of my own 12-13 year old self and how innocent a time it was. Even today with all this SM available, they were still innocent young girls.

Meeting up with what they thought was a young boy would definitely have been a secret between them only. In their young minds meeting up with a boy would have been a big deal and they did what they thought was a smart thing to do and when together, rather than alone to meet up with him. Parent's today seem so busy with their own lives and have this false sense of security when the children are at home, safe and sound. Mean while a monster is entering their lives virtually and playing right into a young person's naivete'.

Predator's of modern times have it so easy, they no longer walk around with their trench coats waiting to pounce on their prey. All they have to do today is know a few things about technology and they are off to the races. The predator's are in every child's home, if that child is on SM in one form or fashion....

Everything you say here is true. I'm thinking too though it might not have even been direct contact as in arranging a meeting with them. It could all have been stalking on the perp's part. Scrolling through social media to look for his next victims.

Imo, he was on the hunt.

It appeared that Libby's social media accounts were open to the public. We don't know whether she announced her plans anywhere on them. If she did though, it could have made her and Abby easy targets.

Libby would not have even known she was on his radar...

 

[JazzTune]

I'm with you 100%.

I believe he used a burner/trac phone. Maybe even at a pawn shop or some such.

Some members believe it's easy to trace folks, online. I'm here to say "no, it's not", especially when someone knows how to cover their tracks. It's easy to do, really, with all the software available out there. People have used Skype to make fake phone calls to 911, using other's phone #'s to do it. Stuff like that.

I think BG is a lot more sophisticated than many give him credit for.

-FD

Thank you! You are one of the tech-savvy people I was referring to. You have contributed a gold mine of information in your various posts of how this all works.

Many, many thanks to you, FD, for being here and sharing your knowledge with us. I really appreciate it!

 

[Tricia]

Thank you skibaboo. You are very sweet.

My apologies. I did not mean to get everyone off topic here.

The time has come for me to I finally ban myself. I've had too many infractions and therefore should be banished. LOL

Back to Abby and Libby.

Can you all think of a case where they have a picture of the perp and a recording of his voice and they haven't any idea who this person is that murdered Abby and Libby?

They have a picture, voice recording, possibly DNA, I mean this perp must be from another dimension or homeless.

Then again, maybe not.

Does this case keep you up at night? It does me.

Thank you

Tricia

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

I have seen suggestions that these girls were murdered because they witnessed or knew something. What do posters think of those theories?

I think it's a plausible theory, especially considering how prevalent meth is in Indiana. I don't know the first thing about meth production, so I looked up the reasons for cooking meth in the woods and found a really interesting article from TimberLine Magazine, the online newspaper for the forest products industry:

http://www.timberlinemag.com/articledatabase/view.asp?articleID=1403

A few quotes from the article that I found particularly interesting:

"Seeking the cover of deep woods, drug producers can quickly set up an illegal lab to create methamphetamine, a powerful, addictive stimulant that can cause violent or paranoid behavior."

"Meth labs may be set up in many kinds of sheltering structures — old cabins, barns, outbuildings, chicken houses, trailers, buses, etc. Drug cooking equipment typically includes glass bottles, tubes, and a gas burner fueled by a propane tank. The people operating these illegal drug labs should be considered extremely dangerous since they are fearful of being caught, and they may be prone to violence."

"Law enforcement officials advise taking extreme caution when approaching old cabins in the woods or trailers parked along forest roads since these structures may house meth labs. Do not risk a confrontation with a drug manufacturer."

Just trying to figure out what could have possibly caused the paths of BG and the girls to collide in that unlikely isolated area. Maybe the girls saw something they weren't supposed to see and somebody (BG) got really mad. Since we hardly have anything to go on, all we can do at this point is speculate. IMHO, this is as good of a theory as any other until more details become available. Maybe what looks like a bunch of stuff crammed underneath BG's jacket could be supplies/paraphernalia related to this activity. Thoughts?
[SUB][SUP]
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[Eileen730]

This is exactly what i think happened here.
These 2 young ladies were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I do not think this was a sexual attack.
Imo they saw this man doing something he could not afford to let them tell.

Alljmo

 

[JazzTune]

I realize I'm putting the board on 'blast' again here, with my opinions and I DO apologize. I don't mean to monopolize the floor.

I do want to add one more point though as to why I feel so strongly about the involvement of the social media angle in this case.

I went back and pulled the following article with the comments made by State Police Sergeant Kim Riley right after their murders.

http://heavy.com/news/2017/02/liber...elphi-trails-picture-identity/comment-page-3/

In this article, he said, and I quote: "Parents should make sure they know where their children are and what their children are doing, and if nothing else, know what's going on in their lives. That's the most important thing I can say at this point in time."

These words were carefully chosen by him. They reflect the knowledge that LE had about the crime at that time. Personally, I can't imagine those particular words being said about a random type of encounter at the park.

The girls were dropped off there by a family member, and were due to be picked up by one as well. They were there to hike and take pictures.

Does that sound like a scenario that LE would feel compelled to warn parents about? To use those specific words of knowing where your children are and what they are doing? Do those words fit?

WE (the public) do not know whether Libby posted her plans on social media for that day. But LE DOES. LE has in their possession every single word, message, text, etc posted or sent by Libby.

Imo, their words reflect THAT type of concern. Their message is telling parents to be aware of what their children are doing ONLINE. On their phones. Not for a hike in the park.

I cannot see that specific choice of words by LE for any other reason.

 

[cluciano63]

I disagree that that these murders were for any reason other than sexual attacks. If they had "seen something" I feel like BG would have associates who would have sold him out hoping for the huge reward by now. Also usually in small towns, LE knows who is up to what, pretty much. If there was something happening so nearby where the girls lived, I feel like it would be on LE's radar already. Jmo

 

[eastcoasterinco]

I realize I'm putting the board on 'blast' again here, with my opinions and I DO apologize. I don't mean to monopolize the floor.

I do want to add one more point though as to why I feel so strongly about the involvement of the social media angle in this case.

I went back and pulled the following article with the comments made by State Police Sergeant Kim Riley right after their murders.

http://heavy.com/news/2017/02/liber...elphi-trails-picture-identity/comment-page-3/

In this article, he said, and I quote: "Parents should make sure they know where their children are and what their children are doing, and if nothing else, know what's going on in their lives. That's the most important thing I can say at this point in time."

These words were carefully chosen by him. They reflect the knowledge that LE had about the crime at that time. Personally, I can't imagine those particular words being said about a random type of encounter at the park.

The girls were dropped off there by a family member, and were due to be picked up by one as well. They were there to hike and take pictures.

Does that sound like a scenario that LE would feel compelled to warn parents about? To use those specific words of knowing where your children are and what they are doing? Do those words fit?

WE (the public) do not know whether Libby posted her plans on social media for that day. But LE DOES. LE has in their possession every single word, message, text, etc posted or sent by Libby.

Imo, their words reflect THAT type of concern. Their message is telling parents to be aware of what their children are doing ONLINE. On their phones. Not for a hike in the park.

I cannot see that specific choice of words by LE for any other reason.

I tend to agree with your idea of what he meant behind his wording, but my theory of the crime differs from yours so I wanted to dive deeper into his quote and try and see both/all sides to it.

To play devil's advocate, when was this statement made? The article was posted 2 days after the murder. I'd like to think LE knew a whole lot about the crime at that time, but could it be possible that they didn't?

Could it be possible they were frustrated at how little the parents/family knew about the girls' lives (social circles, crushes, relationships with teachers, friends' parents etc.?) and they wanted to relay the message that parents should keep an eye on their children's whereabouts (physically, online, both?) to keep them safe.

I'm not sure how much we should be reading into the specific words, JMO. I can imagine how many emotions, frustrations, and let downs there were surrounding this crime at that point in time.



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[Beth11311]

Thank you skibaboo. You are very sweet.

My apologies. I did not mean to get everyone off topic here.

The time has come for me to I finally ban myself. I've had too many infractions and therefore should be banished. LOL

Back to Abby and Libby.

Can you all think of a case where they have a picture of the perp and a recording of his voice and they haven't any idea who this person is that murdered Abby and Libby?

They have a picture, voice recording, possibly DNA, I mean this perp must be from another dimension or homeless.

Then again, maybe not.

Does this case keep you up at night? It does me.

Thank you

Tricia

This is the case that brought me here originally, and it is still the most baffling by far. I've been consumed by it - and think of the girls often. A massive thank you for all that you do, Tricia!! Total fangirl moment, lol.

I'm not sure if there was SA in this case, but I don't think that it had to do with drugs or the girls seeing something that they shouldn't have, but that's just MOO. There has been a lot of mystery surrounding the case, and until we know more I continue to circle back over and over the facts that we do have, and have effectively made myself both dizzy AND crazy. Hoping every day will be "the" day.


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[ozazure]

Thanks JazzTune, that is a very telling quote. He has reason to believe that this incident is related to ongoing circumstances, not a random occurrence.

I don't tend to go for social media/catfish/stalker theories because I think it is easier for a perp to randomly find a suitable victim in a great spot versus finding a great victim and getting them to a suitable spot. I mean, how long out was this not-a-snow-day planned? But LE knows a lot more than we do.

And I have probably made assumptions from their overall appearances that probably aren't worth much - there can be a vast discrepancy in how interested teens are in non-platonic relationships and hence how vulnerable they might be in a variety of scenarios. How they present themselves doesn't correlate, they can be sport loving, not bothered with presenting themselves in mature ways in fashion, makeup and dress, but still be interested enough to get sucked in to a bad situation.

Like Tricia states, we have video, a sketch and possible DNA and no one knows who this guys is so far it seems. I think there is a chance this could go cold, unless he strikes again and makes two mistakes - a link to this case, and a link to his identity.

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo, if LE knew that there was a particular reason these girls werw murdered, then they would likely know the "who" by now. If there was a social media connection, it would not take five+ months to track down a perp. If they (the girls) were somehow involved or aware of dangerous doings, same. I think LE's words were spoken in a general sense, while not yet knowing why these girls were murdered or if they were targeted. Jmo

 

[rotary_dial]

I think its a bit far fetched to think a teen (or two of them) would go to meet someone without video chatting with them at the very least.

Unless this bad guy could shape shift into an age appropriate teenager or have a juvenile accomplice, then I think luring them via the internet is just not what happened.

Teens use video to communicate way more than text these days. For them to not use some kind of video chat leading up to meeting someone seems impossible to me.

If they did video chat with this guy and plan on meeting him, I could see it relating to the geocache there at the bridge. However I think they would be smart enough to mention the meetup with the sister who also shares that hobby.

Just my opinion...



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[JazzTune]

I tend to agree with your idea of what he meant behind his wording, but my theory of the crime differs from yours so I wanted to dive deeper into his quote and try and see both/all sides to it.

To play devil's advocate, when was this statement made? The article was posted 2 days after the murder. I'd like to think LE knew a whole lot about the crime at that time, but could it be possible that they didn't?

Could it be possible they were frustrated at how little the parents/family knew about the girls' lives (social circles, crushes, relationships with teachers, friends' parents etc.?) and they wanted to relay the message that parents should keep an eye on their children's whereabouts (physically, online, both?) to keep them safe.

I'm not sure how much we should be reading into the specific words, JMO. I can imagine how many emotions, frustrations, and let downs there were surrounding this crime at that point in time.



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Good points! You may be right too. Perhaps the words were more of a knee-jerk reaction by LE at that time to this horrible crime.

Sort of a general warning to everyone to watch over their children.

That's a valid interpretation, and I'm not discrediting it at all. That may be what they were meaning.

But in my opinion? No.

I don't believe that was the case here. Though it was soon after the murders, they had the FBI on board with all their skills right away.

I believe they already knew enough about Libby's online and phone communications to choose their words carefully.

I heard Sergeant Riley SAY those words. I watched his facial expressions and noted his body language.

What I saw was not a general warning. I saw his clenched jaw, and the pain in his eyes. I firmly believe his words were specific and well-chosen.

What his words told me was exactly what I have written.

Again, I hope I'm not coming across as putting down your opinion in any way. You have stated yours well.

That's what is so good about this forum. Being able to share and exchange our ideas.

In the final analysis, all we can do is state our reasoning and logic behind them. Other people may see the exact same things in a totally different way.

I'm always open to having my opinions challenged. That helps me think better.

I like to read other people's opinions as well. Yours are always well thought out, including this one. Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Daae]

I think its a bit far fetched to think a teen (or two of them) would go to meet someone without video chatting with them at the very least.

Unless this bad guy could shape shift into an age appropriate teenager or have a juvenile accomplice, then I think luring them via the internet is just not what happened.

Teens use video to communicate way more than text these days. For them to not use some kind of video chat leading up to meeting someone seems impossible to me.

If they did video chat with this guy and plan on meeting him, I could see it relating to the geocache there at the bridge. However I think they would be smart enough to mention the meetup with the sister who also shares that hobby.

Just my opinion...



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Perps can fake live pictures on KIK . This is a terrible video and shocking!!!! "How to catfish someone on Kik using fake camera and faking live camera" [video=youtube;JJlMzooYZN0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJlMzooYZN0[/video]

 

[rosesfromangels]

Jazztune,
I understand what you are suggesting. and, I completely agree with you. One of the girls, most likely Abby, had been communicating in someway and it resulted in this meeting. We don't know the nature of those communications or whether there was some sort of implied agreement of some sort, we just don't know.

Whatever the agreement, if there was one, I believe Abby wanted to back out of, and her friend liberty went with her, and to protect her. And, we know the outcome. All amateur speculation and opinion.

 

[JazzTune]

Jmo, if LE knew that there was a particular reason these girls werw murdered, then they would likely know the "who" by now. If there was a social media connection, it would not take five+ months to track down a perp. If they (the girls) were somehow involved or aware of dangerous doings, same. I think LE's words were spoken in a general sense, while not yet knowing why these girls were murdered or if they were targeted. Jmo

Sorry, I probably didn't make my thoughts clear about the points you've brought up here. Please correct me if I'm off base but here's what I believe about the social media connection.

I think LE has all of Libby's communications. They may have just been random, online postings about her plans. Not necessarily any specific communication with the perp.

I don't think Libby was doing anything wrong online. I don't think that's what LE meant either. I believe their words were indicating that it was the fact her social media was open to the public. THAT was the danger. That is why they cautioned parents to KNOW what their children are doing.

Know whether your children and their accounts are safe online, because open accounts can allow random strangers to stalk your child online.

If the perp DID stalk Libby, he also knew how to block all HIS online activity. We just discussed how he could have used any of various untraceable apps, services, etc.

It doesn't matter if it's five months later, or (God forbid) five years later. If they're untraceable, they won't ever be found. That says nothing bad about LE from that standpoint, or their methods. It's just the fact of the nature of these apps or services.

I don't think their words were ever meant to indicate that they know WHY he did it, or why he chose them. (Who could ever understand the mind of a killer of two young teens?!)

So, I hope this makes sense and clears up what I was trying to convey.

If I have misunderstood your points, please let me know...

 

[JazzTune]

I think its a bit far fetched to think a teen (or two of them) would go to meet someone without video chatting with them at the very least.

Unless this bad guy could shape shift into an age appropriate teenager or have a juvenile accomplice, then I think luring them via the internet is just not what happened.

Teens use video to communicate way more than text these days. For them to not use some kind of video chat leading up to meeting someone seems impossible to me.

If they did video chat with this guy and plan on meeting him, I could see it relating to the geocache there at the bridge. However I think they would be smart enough to mention the meetup with the sister who also shares that hobby.

Just my opinion...



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I don't necessarily think they ever communicated with the perp. I believe he may have stalked Libby and saw her plans posted on her open social media accounts.

He knew where she was going to be, and he showed up.

She likely had no idea she was ever on his radar at all...

My opinion only...

 

[JazzTune]

Thanks JazzTune, that is a very telling quote. He has reason to believe that this incident is related to ongoing circumstances, not a random occurrence.

I don't tend to go for social media/catfish/stalker theories because I think it is easier for a perp to randomly find a suitable victim in a great spot versus finding a great victim and getting them to a suitable spot. I mean, how long out was this not-a-snow-day planned? But LE knows a lot more than we do.

And I have probably made assumptions from their overall appearances that probably aren't worth much - there can be a vast discrepancy in how interested teens are in non-platonic relationships and hence how vulnerable they might be in a variety of scenarios. How they present themselves doesn't correlate, they can be sport loving, not bothered with presenting themselves in mature ways in fashion, makeup and dress, but still be interested enough to get sucked in to a bad situation.

Like Tricia states, we have video, a sketch and possible DNA and no one knows who this guys is so far it seems. I think there is a chance this could go cold, unless he strikes again and makes two mistakes - a link to this case, and a link to his identity.

Very good post! So well-stated.

Thank you so much for such interesting comments. Really enjoyed reading them!