IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #67

[grayhuze]

View attachment 122760

 

[Falling Down]

 

[Shiressleuth]

Unfortunately these attachments from GH and FD are not loading for me. Is anyone else having problems?

 

[Betty P]

Thank you.
That is some really good information to help those of us who are not local to the area.

I have to bet that canoe trips down that river was very popular with teens growing up in that town. Kayak is possible too although when I grew up canoes were more popular and more easier to control without worrying too much about capsizing so I suspect guys and gals growing up would have done canoe trips on that river.

If he grew up in that town like a lot of us suspect then I am guessing he may have canoed that river during his high school years there.

It would be good to talk to locals who grew up and went to school there to see if they can identify any people that may have stood out to them or heard rumors about.

Its a shot in the dark worth taking. Im hoping LE has already thought of doing that by now. I hope.

ETA I highlighted some key points . Thanks again as that is great information.
I really think we are on the right track thinking along these lines.

The valley and hills around there may also have been a popular hiking location back in the day, before the walking trails were built. That bottom land may also have been a teen/young adult hang out area, where local kids went to party at night/weekends. Worth checking into.

ETA: If it was a party hang out area, check into any locals who were the fun party kids in high school back in the 70's, 80's, etc.

 

[margarita25]

Just a thought. Perhaps someone even already mentioned this, but what if he was visiting the gravesite of one of his other kills in that nearby cemetery? Perhaps that's why he was there that day? Then he wanted to have that feel of a kill again? Just a thought.

Another new thought I hadn't heard before...we'd of course considered a relative, etc, but a victim? Interesting angle.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Unfortunately these attachments from GH and FD are not loading for me. Is anyone else having problems?

It was just my system and it seems ok now. Thanks for the info. What is the consensus? Were any of the 3 structures possibly a hideout for illegal activity, surveillance or rough sleeping? As the police were all over the area I cannot believe they weren't checked anyway.

 

[Cryptic]

For now I am sticking with the transient theory.

I think the photo of him on the bridge shows he was carrying a pretty large gun under his jacket and he had on layers of clothes so he was prepared for any weather and to make it through the night clothing wise.

I would have hoped by now LE would have checked any of the soup kitchens or missions where people sometimes have to register to get food or stay the night.

I have a feeling he had already spent the night in the area where he was about to lead the girls.

Though I understand your views about the transient possibility, the guy just does not present many transient vibes to me. Please consider the following:

- Multi layered clothing is very common amongst mid western farmers, tradesmen and industrial workers. So in Indiana, it does not indicate a transient to the same degree that it would in say, CA or FL.

- His clothes, though not fashionable by any stretch of the immagination, are neat, clean and possibly even color coordinated to a degree.

- Though he could have left it in the bushes, he is not carrying a back pack favored by homeless, nor was one evidently recovered from the scene.

- If the imprint under his clothing is a large pistol, such a weapon is unlikely to be carried by a transient. They are expensive, heavy, and can attract unwanted attention as well as police inquiries about permits. In addition, I bet many shelters refuse entry to transients carrying obvious weapons. In short, I could see a transient perpetrator with a small disposable type pistol, but not a large one.

 

[deedee21]

Youtube Brain Scratch Delphi Murders

 

[Deleted member 196796]

Though I understand your views about the transient possibility, the guy just does not present many transient vibes to me. Please consider the following:

- Multi layered clothing is very common amongst mid western farmers, tradesmen and industrial workers. So in Indiana, it does not indicate a transient to the same degree that it would in say, CA or FL.

- His clothes, though not fashionable by any stretch of the immagination, are neat, clean and possibly even color coordinated to a degree.

- Though he could have left it in the bushes, he is not carrying a back pack favored by homeless, nor was one evidently recovered from the scene.

- If the imprint under his clothing is a large pistol, such a weapon is unlikely to be carried by a transient. They are expensive, heavy, and can attract unwanted attention as well as police inquiries about permits. In addition, I bet many shelters refuse entry to transients carrying obvious weapons. In short, I could see a transient perpetrator with a small disposable type pistol, but not a large one.

I'm with you Cryptic, the grainy still from the video to me shows clean clothes and a shaved faced. The composite sketch has him cleaned shaved with a goat tee. I have the same thoughts of the weapon but even a parolee/felon would be at high risk with a firearm and the air guns they manufacture now are very real looking. On the other side we have gang bangers putting the orange tips out of toy guns in the end of the barrels of their 9's and 45's so the Cops will hesitate on pulling the trigger. A lot of agreement here in WS on BG being from or previously living in the area. I totally agree with that he, knew the area very well.

 

[ozazure]

but the girls are so young, they don't know better, this is the definition of vulnerability , i am sorry to say this but anything can be a lure for the young , innocent , inexperienced young girls....i cannot believe anyone who was around during the 60's and seventies doesn't agree with me 100% because young girls are people an they have free will and they run wild a little because its fun and they want to.

to just try and paint them as a frozen photo and say they were too innocent and victims etc...is to deny them their humanity and obstructs...it just obstructs the investigation because we have to look at the possibility that they went there to meet someone...we have to , regardless if they are children.

In my mind we owe them that . MOO

I have no idea what you are responding to in my comment with this, I have pondered nothing on the basis of the girls' "innocence" - I rate scenarios based on what I find likely or unlikely given what has played out since the murder.

I do think it is a possibility they could be meeting someone BUT that I find it unlikely because if there was a digital trail organising such a meeting, they would have well and truly traced that by now. They would be pursuing that lead, not appealing for help via a sketch and a grainy video. Even if the meeting was organised in person, don't you think they'd be some communication digitally between the two girls about this mystery third person they had enough contact with to organise another meeting in the future? Nevermind to mention it has been stated the bridge trip was a spontaneous idea - they had to call to get permission and a ride home very shortly before they left. Did he make the plan with them through a bedroom window at noon? All signs point to them being there spontaneously.

I also don't dismiss the idea that they might, at 14 years old, smoke marijuana. Plenty do, plenty don't and I wouldn't think any less of them if they did, mostly people experiment a little and move on in life. What I do dismiss is that this is a reasonable place for a drug deal to take place, or for them to witness a drug deal (nevermind no one is murdering over people witnessing a drug deal). People who are buying and selling marijuana are not master criminals, they are chill about what they are doing. Cars pull up, doors are knocked on, money and goods change hands - no hiking onto a bridge required. Like seriously, how many drug deals are you doing if every teenager with $20 to spend has you on the Monon Bridge or similar locales? On the scale of Avon Lady to Selling State Secrets, small scale marijuana purchases are way more Avon Lady. The Avon lady isn't going hiking to sell you a lipstick. And people running major operations have private places to conduct their business.

Nothing is black and white. The area looks like a great place to go smoke a joint. Poor Kaytlynn Cargill met her demise buying dope but the connection between her and her murderer was quickly found out. Prior contact between the murderer and Abby and Libby seems less and less likely as time marches on.

 

[minazoe]

he was there, he knew where he was going, what he was going to do, and why he was there, how does it all dovetail into the two perfect victims?

some kind of prior knowledge of these girls. Anyone know if there were ever any other murders on this property? sex crimes? mysteries? hauntings? things that might draw this ghoul to this spot. could be he saw them dispatch the car at drop off, so he moved his car back by the cemetery and proceeded to look for them and intercept them on the path, he probably has a kill kit in the car and this is why he looks like he knows where he's going because he actually knows the girls are there and he knows he's going to locate them easily.

he may be a guy who lurks around in his car, lurks around parking lots, shopping centers, park trails waiting for a vulnerable girl..or girls, or maybe children. Perhaps he has killed before, killed children before, maybe even little boys. If he kills for sadistic pleasure he may not be partial to male or female victims as long as they are children, or perhaps he only kills females or fantasizes about females and is not partial to a particular age.


I really want to wish this ultimate loser luck in the Indiana prison system, I hope he will try to be clever and defend himself so we can have a quick and decisive verdict,

for a death penalty.

and then I hope he cries for the arms of his mother night after lonely night until his number is up.

IMO

 

[katydid23]

I still wonder whether the sister and the girls stopped anywhere on the way to the bridge. Did they stop and get snacks at a minimart or a gas station?

I feel like someone might have seen them and followed to see where they were all going. And when they saw the 2 younger girls getting out alone, maybe he/they waited and followed them after the sister drove off?

 

[minazoe]

this case needs John Walsh, I wonder what it is about this case that is keeping it off the mainstream media. It seems a case just made for endless speculation and coverage. This guy is going to do this again and again, I bet he eventually reaches out and tries to taunt the cops or family.

because he is not getting the attention he DESERVES! right?

we have to find him, he's looking for his next "project", opportunity...I wonder if they have uber or lyft drivers out that way...a job with no schedule, plenty of time to linger around in your car doing nothing.

the silence of police makes me wonder if they actually have their suspect and are watching him and waiting for the moment they can take him down.

for all we know they are sitting outside his home right now, following him to the grocery store, watching him night and day, tapping his phones and monitoring his computer and sorting his garbage.

I hope he is wildly paranoid now and running on empty. MOO

 

[deedee21]

this case needs John Walsh, I wonder what it is about this case that is keeping it off the mainstream media. It seems a case just made for endless speculation and coverage. This guy is going to do this again and again, I bet he eventually reaches out and tries to taunt the cops or family.

because he is not getting the attention he DESERVES! right?

we have to find him, he's looking for his next "project", opportunity...I wonder if they have uber or lyft drivers out that way...a job with no schedule, plenty of time to linger around in your car doing nothing.

the silence of police makes me wonder if they actually have their suspect and are watching him and waiting for the moment they can take him down.

for all we know they are sitting outside his home right now, following him to the grocery store, watching him night and day, tapping his phones and monitoring his computer and sorting his garbage.

I hope he is wildly paranoid now and running on empty. MOO

We can only hope. But Sgt. Holeman did an interview on the 6th month anniversary the girls were found. Typically this is done when LE is clueless.

 

[Yemelyan]

Respectfully snipped, but:

he may be a guy who lurks around in his car, lurks around parking lots, shopping centers, park trails waiting for a vulnerable girl..or girls, or maybe children. Perhaps he has killed before, killed children before, maybe even little boys. If he kills for sadistic pleasure he may not be partial to male or female victims as long as they are children, or perhaps he only kills females or fantasizes about females and is not partial to a particular age.

IMO

Yes! I'm so glad you said this. He may not be as partial to a particular type of victim as most people think. We (including myself) can get caught up in looking for patterns and thinking that he will always abduct the same way, kill the same way, choose the same type of victim. It might not be the case. His predilections evolve, or his opportunities do.

 

[liltexans]

Hi everyone,

Thank you for continuing to pursue justice for Abby and Libby.

Websleuths really needs your help at this time. Please consider giving if possible.

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:tyou:

 

[Ember123]

JMO to try and help.

At 3:54 and especially the one at 29:16 that building looks to be a chicken coop or other type building that would house some small birds or livestock. Buildings big like that are some type of animals usually being raised for food or eggs.

They would not make for a good hide out because of the smell and also the animals like birds would make a racket when someone goes inside one of those buildings.

I cant make out much else from the helicopter footage because he goes too fast over things.

One thing i did find interesting is the view of the searchers in the water at 30:30. At the
31:00 mark it shows how good of a hiding spot the BG had down the slope to the water. Because from up on the land you cannot see down as the slope goes down to the water. He would have been hidden down on the slope where the girls were found. The only way someone could have ever spotted him was if they went down the slope themselves or were on the total opposite side of the creek.

He had a very hidden spot where they were found. Its another reason I think he was transient because transients tend to find places similar to this where they would not be disturbed.

Sorry to be hung up on my transient theory. If it turns out he was the hobo type then I suspect he had stayed at that spot on numerous other occasions in the past. Which means he does have some sort of tie to the area. Maybe grew up there as a teenager or something.

[video=youtube;HvhKS1eRIMM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvhKS1eRIMM[/video]

Your reference to a "hobo" is funny. In convo recently I used that term then realized if you said same to kids today they'd be like, "huh?"

 

[Ember123]

It was just my system and it seems ok now. Thanks for the info. What is the consensus? Were any of the 3 structures possibly a hideout for illegal activity, surveillance or rough sleeping? As the police were all over the area I cannot believe they weren't checked anyway.

MAYBE ...BG lurked from structure near the start of the trail, beckoned to girls early on, they ignored him... he reappeared in hot pursuit on bridge and they realized it was him again, took photo ...

 

[mpnola]

I still wonder whether the sister and the girls stopped anywhere on the way to the bridge. Did they stop and get snacks at a minimart or a gas station?

I feel like someone might have seen them and followed to see where they were all going. And when they saw the 2 younger girls getting out alone, maybe he/they waited and followed them after the sister drove off?

This is still super high on my list, too. Even would have given him a little time to go get his kit together and get over thwre. But certainky, if that was the case, they would have store footage and would have released other pics of the dude, huh?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[katydid23]

This is still super high on my list, too. Even would have given him a little time to go get his kit together and get over thwre. But certainky, if that was the case, they would have store footage and would have released other pics of the dude, huh?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Not necessarily. I have watched a lot of shows on ID investigation mysteries, or the 1st 48, about missing women.

In many of the surveillance tapes, the suspect never got close to the victims at all. Often, they sit in their vehicles and watch from afar. Or they are standing or sitting across the street or on a bus bench, not really being noticeable.

If the girls stopped at a mini-mart, the cameras may not have picked up anything amiss at all.