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Cottonstar said:
Well, same thing. Before BR went to bed.


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According to JR only. The same man who told two officials separately that he read to JBR before tucking her in, and who told Arndt that BR and PR went immediately to bed when they arrived home. I wouldn't describe Burke playing before he went to bed as always being the narrative.
 
JR helping BR with a toy before bed. Yes.

BR getting up when everyone was “kinda in bed”. No.


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BoldBear said:
On Dr. Phil, BR said he went downstairs after everyone was in bed. He also brought the flashlight into play.

Burke moved himself onto the stage 20 years after the crime was committed. There's no doubt in my mind that he talked with an attorney and was probably coached before he did the Dr. Phil show. I don't trust what he said--not like he was flat-out lying, but presenting half truths. If you are RDI, then you cannot put faith in what the Ramseys say. You must approach what they say with skepticism.

BR basically said that he was in the center of the murder scene when everyone went to bed. (The pen from the cup by the phone and the notepad on the back hallway counter top). If there's any time you need to question motive, this is it. He had all the time in the world to prepare what he was going to say and what he would leave out.

“All warfare is based on deception..." I actually need to study Sun Tzu more but it's a great quote.

What he said during the interview wasn't by accident. The only question I saw that really tripped him up was his voice being on the 911 call. His response was like: "Ah shucks, I know you're not going to believe me, but I'm gonna say it anyway."

Pay attention to the subterfuge where Dr. Phil said, "I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?" Burke didn't say it. John didn't say it. Dr. Phil said he "think's your father said." We never saw John say that on camera. That's extremely careful wording. It leaves deniability open.

I don't think he put himself on the 1st floor that night to incriminate himself. He's the only one who can't be touched. The blow to the head could have been an accident or done in a fit of rage. The cord to the neck was flat-out murder. Who did that?
Click to expand...


BoldBear,
Pay attention to the subterfuge where Dr. Phil said, "I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?" Burke didn't say it. John didn't say it. Dr. Phil said he "think's your father said." We never saw John say that on camera. That's extremely careful wording. It leaves deniability open.
Click to expand...
According to Dr Phil. JR is now saying something new, e.g. I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

So the unaswered question is who returned the flashlight to the kitchen as the last person known to hold it was JR, or is BR being setup to claim responsibility for that, note BR never said anything about using a flashlight?

The case might be PDI or JDI with the evidence being manipulated to fit BDI?
 
new forum person....

how is there credible doubt that patsy wrote that note? i think everything i'm aware of about it points to her. even had an accent on the word attache....... extremely well written note (i think by a woman) and she was a journalism grad so she's probably a very good writer.. i can't see a shifty sex offender type being a pristine writer in any way... and the handwriting apparently resembles hers in many ways.


not that much else about the case makes me feel strongly one way or another.... if there were no note i'd have no opinion as to what happened.
 
again as noted i'm new here.

are they any posters here that strongly believe in the intruder theory?

i mentioned that i don't have strong opinion without the ransom letter..... i will say that without the ransom letter i still think they know what happened to their daughter.
 
Websleuthbc said:
again as noted i'm new here.

are they any posters here that strongly believe in the intruder theory?

i mentioned that i don't have strong opinion without the ransom letter..... i will say that without the ransom letter i still think they know what happened to their daughter.
Click to expand...

I do not believe there are any intruder theorists left outside of the Ramsey family.
 
UKGuy said:
BoldBear,

According to Dr Phil. JR is now saying something new, e.g. I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

So the unaswered question is who returned the flashlight to the kitchen as the last person known to hold it was JR, or is BR being setup to claim responsibility for that, note BR never said anything about using a flashlight?

The case might be PDI or JDI with the evidence being manipulated to fit BDI?
Click to expand...

We become fixed on what we don't have. The boot print is one of my favorite examples. Everyone keeps asking who the boot print belonged to. Since we don't know, I like to equate it to asking why the murderer didn't accidentally drop his/her driver's license at the crime scene. We cry over the information we're never going to get. Work with what you have.

I believe that John Ramsey is withholding information about what happened that night. He's held onto that information for 20 years. All that time, he's been under the care of a very smart attorney. Ask yourself why John would let this piece of information slip to Dr. Phil. He doesn't accidentally drop details about what happened that night and this is a fairly large piece of information. He denied having anything to do with the flashlight and now 20 years later, it was in his hand. Only, it wasn't in his hand because the way it was presented gives him deniability. "I didn't say that about that night. We were talking about another night."

If he drops a piece of information that big, anyone who picks it up and runs with it should assume they're being played.
 
Let me apologize especially to UKGuy.

I have tunnel vision with this case right now. I've been putting all of my free time into this case. It's led me to have a closed mind. I shouldn't be posting here while I'm getting all of the final pieces together. I'm too close to my current theory and it's messing with me.

I've had to base it on the family dynamics and the events they went though leading up to the murder. It's fairly complex.

Sorry, my if recent responses have been a little out there. I shouldn't post responses here when my brain is on other things.
 
BoldBear said:
Let me apologize especially to UKGuy.

I have tunnel vision with this case right now. I've been putting all of my free time into this case. It's led me to have a closed mind. I shouldn't be posting here while I'm getting all of the final pieces together. I'm too close to my current theory and it's messing with me.

I've had to base it on the family dynamics and the events they went though leading up to the murder. It's fairly complex.

Sorry, my if recent responses have been a little out there. I shouldn't post responses here when my brain is on other things.
Click to expand...

BoldBear
Don't worry about it, we all get hung up on aspects of the case, at least you are discussing stuff. On the footprint, it belongs to BR, he owned a pair of Hi Tec shoes, and admitted to Kolar as being present in the wine-cellar on Christmas Day opening his gifts.

That said, BR might be covering for forensic evidence left after everyone retired to their bedrooms on Christmas Night. Unrelated but something that crossed my mind: why would JR need to use a flashlight to put BR to bed, whats wrong with the standard wall lights?

.
 
Cottonstar said:
JR helping BR with a toy before bed. Yes.

BR getting up when everyone was “kinda in bed”. No.


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Both can be true, and that's the irony of it.

They arrive home.
There is pineapple and a short play time.
PR says she has a few things to pack.
JR says he'll put the kids to bed and says to Burke 'come on bedtime, we've got an early start tomorrow, I'll get your sister settled and then I'll be in to tuck you in'.
Lights off downstairs.
BR goes up to his bedroom.
JR takes JBR to her bedroom and molests her. PR walks in and reacts, causing JBR's head injury. Both parents remain silent to protect themselves.
BR hears his mom shouting but then it goes quiet. The parents keep it low so that BR won't come over to see what's happened.
BR is waiting for his dad to come and tuck him in. He thinks they've forgotten and must have gone to bed. He creeps downstairs to play until his dad checks on him and finds him.
JR helps him finish his toy and takes him up to bed.
JR knows BR knows he was left waiting for a time and he invents a story for the cops he was reading to JBR.

A few months later they know pineapple was identified in JBR's digestive tract. They also know there are accusations JBR was molested before the night of her death. What's more important to them now, admitting JBR could have eaten pineapple, or averring JBR was fast asleep (could not have eaten pineapple), and JR spent no time alone with her in her bedroom reading to her?

Remember BR saying JBR walked up to bed.
 
Tortoise said:
Both can be true, and that's the irony of it.

They arrive home.
There is pineapple and a short play time.
PR says she has a few things to pack.
JR says he'll put the kids to bed and says to Burke 'come on bedtime, we've got an early start tomorrow, I'll get your sister settled and then I'll be in to tuck you in'.
Lights off downstairs.
BR goes up to his bedroom.
JR takes JBR to her bedroom and molests her. PR walks in and reacts, causing JBR's head injury. Both parents remain silent to protect themselves.
BR hears his mom shouting but then it goes quiet. The parents keep it low so that BR won't come over to see what's happened.
BR is waiting for his dad to come and tuck him in. He thinks they've forgotten and must have gone to bed. He creeps downstairs to play until his dad checks on him and finds him.
JR helps him finish his toy and takes him up to bed.
JR knows BR knows he was left waiting for a time and he invents a story for the cops he was reading to JBR.

A few months later they know pineapple was identified in JBR's digestive tract. They also know there are accusations JBR was molested before the night of her death. What's more important to them now, admitting JBR could have eaten pineapple, or averring JBR was fast asleep (could not have eaten pineapple), and JR spent no time alone with her in her bedroom reading to her?

Remember BR saying JBR walked up to bed.
Click to expand...

Only, JR also said he read to BR that night. No one in the family went to bed that night.


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BoldBear said:
On Dr. Phil, BR said he went downstairs after everyone was in bed. He also brought the flashlight into play.
Click to expand...

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/09/...r-being-downstairs-after-everyone-was-in-bed/

" He also admitted to being out of bed late the night his sister died.

“Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was in bed … wanting to get this thing out,” Burke Ramsey said.

“Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn’t be seen?” Dr. Phil followed up.

“I don’t remember. I just remember being downstairs with this toy,” Burke replied.?"
 
UKGuy said:
Unrelated but something that crossed my mind: why would JR need to use a flashlight to put BR to bed, whats wrong with the standard wall lights?
Click to expand...

or a glowworm?
or a dollar store night light?

Why even the need for the flashlight when the stairs to the second story and BR's room are a distance from and obstructed from JBR's room?

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/2ndfloor.gif
 
shirt, underwear, but --
4 MIKE KANE: So you left the room, I
5 take it, you said you went to play with --
6 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to try to get
7 Burke to bed. He was downstairs in the living
8 room working on a toy.
9 MIKE KANE: So you went back in
10 that area, let me see, up here where her bedroom
11 was again?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: I went back, I came
13 down here, Burke was here on the floor. By the
14 Christmas tree.
15 MIKE KANE: Do you remember what it
16 was he was playing with?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Some kind of
18 little square car elevator, you know, I don't
19 know, it was a -- something only a child would
20 appreciate, but it was like a car, garage repair
21 thing, elevators run up and down and stuff,
22 little micro cars.
23 MIKE KANE: When you took him up to
24 bed, I imagine you went up that front steps?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
0500
1 MIKE KANE: To the bedroom?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 MIKE KANE: I see we are back in
4 that back part of the house?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: No.
6 MIKE KANE: All right. And from
7 that point, you -- did you go right to your
8 bedroom?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: I think so.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9946-John-Ramsey-BDA-interview-June-23-1998
 
Advisory: NSFW

Barrel Diameter 1.5 inches/ 38.1 mm

http://maglite.com/shop/flashlights/full-size-flashlights/maglite-3-cell-d-led-3rd-gen-flashlight-634.html#.WjiJ5t-nHIU

1.5 inches diameter x 3.14 = 4.71 inches circumference

https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/circumference

Average circumference of an erect penis
In a study of penis size where measurements were taken in a laboratory setting, the average penis circumference when erect was 4.8 inches (12.3 cm), which means that the average width of the erect penis is approximately 1.5 inches (4 cm).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_penis_size
 
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