Laura Babcock Murder Trial - *GUILTY*

*Respectfully snipped



Hi JuneBug67

I remember the video (I believe W5) when Karla was brought back to the house, and she was only concerned with her material "stuff". She sure came across as someone with at least a sociopath behavour IMO. I'm not sure about how accurate scores like PCL-R or even an IQ test, IMO. if Karla was not a psychopathic person, she was a sociopath IMO. There is a lot of grey when it comes to psychopathic person, and IQ.

I know there has been a lot of progress in the field of psychiatry, but the story of serial killer Edmund_Kemper made my blood run cold when he told the story about killing two women, and putting their heads in the trunk of his car. Then goes to his psychiatric evaluation, only to fool the psychiatrists to lift his restriction to own a weapon. He bragged about how he fooled them.

Are we being fooled by MS, or Karla?

"It’s not easy to spot a psychopath. They can be intelligent, charming, and good at mimicking emotions. They may pretend to be interested in you, but in reality, they probably don’t care."

I can say that the PCL-R is a long established and well respected tool designed to be used by knowledgeable clinicians in clinical settings. Because psychopaths are charming and manipulative, it relies only in small part on an in person interview. Interviews with people around the subject and in a position to observe them over time are heavily factored, as are thorough reviews of available records - medical, institutional, educational etc. etc. Because of the nature of the disorder it needs to be pretty tough to fool a well administered PCL-R, and I think it probably is.

I know the Bernardo/Homolka case inside out and backwards, six ways to Sunday. I took a really, really deep dive on that case, and for years. I remember that video as well, and her behaviour was very offputting, I agree. I think it took her a very long time to understand and accept her own responsibility. For many years she felt and said that Paul did it, Paul made her, Paul, Paul, Paul. And to some extent that was true, but she needed to understand and accept her own responsibility and the parts of her own character that made her vulnerable to making the choices she did. That eventually happened, and I'd bet my life savings on the fact that no, she is not and never was a psychopath, or a sociopath. She had a moderately elevated score on narcissism, and I think that probably describes things fairly accurately. I never for one second thought she would reoffend, because the very unique situation that had created her criminal behaviour was completely dissolved. There was disagreement in the psychiatric community about her - both in court and in talking head land - I remember those talking heads on TV swearing she was a monster and it was inevitable that she would reoffend. It's 12 years later now and so far the evidence would suggest they were wrong.
 
Respectfully snipped ..... again :angel:

I know the Bernardo/Homolka case inside out and backwards, six ways to Sunday. I took a really, really deep dive on that case, and for years. I remember that video as well, and her behaviour was very offputting, I agree..

Very interesting. Is there any truth to her activity immediately post leaving Paul, and staying with her Aunt? Specifically, taking up line dancing and diving into an affair?

That would also seem very strange for someone coming from a horrific relationship and crime spree. MOO
 
[FONT=&quot][57] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]That being said, nothing was found and no evidence was seized as a result of the search of the barn itself. There is no need to address s. 24(2) of the Charter in this context. However, the analysis here flows and forms, in part, a basis for the applicant’s request to exclude evidence pursuant to the actions of the police on May 11, 2013 in locating the Eliminator on the property, and the subsequent issuance of the May 12, 2013 warrant. As such, this issue will be canvassed fully in the next segment of this ruling.

From this document on CanLii. https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=24

So I guess that means that whatever boards and hay were removed produced no evidence? Also, within this same document paragraph 100 it looks like there was evidence that was seized at the hanger (computers, etc) that was ruled not admissable due to a violation of rights that showed additional planning and deliberation.
[/FONT]
 
For some reason, I'm under the impression that DM wished to be absent from the sentencing. Is this accurate?

From what i gather DM does not like the holding cells he is in at Toronto West (I think that's where i read they have been holding him for the trial) and just wants to get back to his routine and comforts of home (Millhaven)
 
Oh my, will I ever get any sleep?? I'm also on to the Sherman couple murder/suicide case now in Toronto. Quite interesting family history on that couple. Again, lots of money. 14th richest man in Canada. Check it out on Webseluths if you don't have anything to do over the holidaysLOL.
There is more out on CanLii FINALLY!!! There were 17 documents and now there are 27. I can't figure out which are new quite yet...but here is the list:

https://www.canlii.org/en/#search/text=dellen millard
 
"
Oh my, will I ever get any sleep?? I'm also on to the Sherman couple murder/suicide case now in Toronto. Quite interesting family history on that couple. Again, lots of money. 14th richest man in Canada. Check it out on Webseluths if you don't have anything to do over the holidaysLOL.
"

Thank you!! I will check that one out, I need another case to follow!
 
[FONT=&amp][57] [/FONT][FONT=&amp]That being said, nothing was found and no evidence was seized as a result of the search of the barn itself. There is no need to address s. 24(2) of the Charter in this context. However, the analysis here flows and forms, in part, a basis for the applicant’s request to exclude evidence pursuant to the actions of the police on May 11, 2013 in locating the Eliminator on the property, and the subsequent issuance of the May 12, 2013 warrant. As such, this issue will be canvassed fully in the next segment of this ruling.

From this document on CanLii. https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=24

So I guess that means that whatever boards and hay were removed produced no evidence? Also, within this same document paragraph 100 it looks like there was evidence that was seized at the hanger (computers, etc) that was ruled not admissable due to a violation of rights that showed additional planning and deliberation.
[/FONT]

Re the hangar search:

“Numerous computers, electronic devices with data, GPS and digital hard drives” were all excluded. (Para. 33 and para. 205).

Sheesh.
 
Respectfully snipped ..... again :angel:



Very interesting. Is there any truth to her activity immediately post leaving Paul, and staying with her Aunt? Specifically, taking up line dancing and diving into an affair?

That would also seem very strange for someone coming from a horrific relationship and crime spree. MOO

I think you're referring to the fact that when she went to her aunt's after getting out of the hospital, she eventually started going out to the bars and started a sexual relationship with another man (who was eventually horrified - poor guy!). I don't struggle at all to understand her behaviour in this period of her life. She was both perpetrator and victim in an incredibly uncommon situation, and we can't look to central casting to figure out what normal behaviour was supposed to look like. Just prior to all that, she received a beating with a MAG flashlight so severe at the hands of Bernardo that an ER doctor said it was the worst case of domestic violence he had ever seen in his career. Her eyes were deeply blackened because he hit her so hard in the back of her head that her brain smashed against the inside of her face. Her arms and legs were completely disfigured by swelling and twisted lumps. It was a truly horrific beating, and yet her family had to drag her kicking and screaming out of her house to even get her to the hospital at all. She wanted with every fibre of her being to stay. That's not understandable behaviour either in common experience.

She has said that dating that guy and going to the bars was an attempt to escape and forget and resume some kind of normality, but of course she couldn't and her respite was temporary because just a few weeks later Paul was identified as the Scarborough Rapist and it all unravelled from there.
 
[FONT=&amp]"[37][/FONT] [FONT=&amp]Moreover, while Ms. Noudga is not a party to this application, there may be unintended consequences on her fair trial rights charged as an accessory after the fact from evidence adduced during the voir dires related to her involvement in this case, including but not limited to the various redacted letters sent and received between her and Mr. Millard. If by my ruling, some ancillary protection flows to Ms. Noudga for her upcoming trial as a result of protecting the applicants’ fair trial rights of the applicants, so be it.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp][38][/FONT] [FONT=&amp]Thus, I am persuaded that the following mid-trial voir dire rulings or objections ought to be covered by an extended publication ban as having a direct impact on matters touching upon the Babcock case and the rights of the applicants to a fair hearing. I am satisfied that the applicants have demonstrated prejudice that would inure if the following rulings, evidence, objections or submissions were made known to the public or prospective jurors prior to the completion of the Babcock case:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]February 22, 2016 - Objection to introduction of emails and text messages involving Shane Schlatman;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]February 23, 2016 - Applications by Crown to revisit December 1st 2015 ruling excluding emails and text messages;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]February 23, 2016 - Mistrial application #1- Re: Wood[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]March 1, 2016 - Objection to Falconer PowerPoint;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]March 29, 2016 - Ruling on Schlatman text messages;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]April 24, 2016 - Ruling on Noudga letters;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]April 26, 2016 - Ruling on further redactions to Noudga letters;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]April 27, 2016- Ruling on Noudga letter redactions; Ruling on caution to Noudga; Ruling on potential testimony of Noudga;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]May 3, 2016 - Ruling on Pollock and Morrison application re Noudga;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]May 4, 2016 - Ruling on redactions on Letters seized from Noudga;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]May 5, 2016 - Ruling on Crown Application to revisit admissibility of text messages previously ruled inadmissible;[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]May 11, 2016 - Ruling on probative value of Smich evidence against Millard."

I want to read these...and I don't see them out there yet. Snipped from this document: [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...AQAOZGVsbGVuIG1pbGxhcmQAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=10

[/FONT] [/FONT]
 
From what i gather DM does not like the holding cells he is in at Toronto West (I think that's where i read they have been holding him for the trial) and just wants to get back to his routine and comforts of home (Millhaven)

So, he doesn’t like the holding cells. My first response to that was “what a shame”. (Sarcasm intended). My second and true response was TFB.
 
I think you're referring to the fact that when she went to her aunt's after getting out of the hospital, she eventually started going out to the bars and started a sexual relationship with another man (who was eventually horrified - poor guy!). I don't struggle at all to understand her behaviour in this period of her life. She was both perpetrator and victim in an incredibly uncommon situation, and we can't look to central casting to figure out what normal behaviour was supposed to look like. Just prior to all that, she received a beating with a MAG flashlight so severe at the hands of Bernardo that an ER doctor said it was the worst case of domestic violence he had ever seen in his career. Her eyes were deeply blackened because he hit her so hard in the back of her head that her brain smashed against the inside of her face. Her arms and legs were completely disfigured by swelling and twisted lumps. It was a truly horrific beating, and yet her family had to drag her kicking and screaming out of her house to even get her to the hospital at all. She wanted with every fibre of her being to stay. That's not understandable behaviour either in common experience.

She has said that dating that guy and going to the bars was an attempt to escape and forget and resume some kind of normality, but of course she couldn't and her respite was temporary because just a few weeks later Paul was identified as the Scarborough Rapist and it all unravelled from there.


Wow, just wow. I didn’t realize there was so much more about this case. I was younger when this was all in the news, amd didn’t pay all that much attention to the news back then, so aside from hearing the usual headlines and talking points, I’m not familiar with the minutiae and details of this one.

I’ve always been meaning to read more about this case...is there a book you would recommend? I know there’s a few out there, but I’d sure love to hear a recommendation from someone who knows the case so well.

Thank you for your insights!
 
IIRC, DM did want to be absent from his sentencing. Justice Code strongly tried to convince him otherwise, and then told him that if that was still what he wanted that DM would have to submit an application, which I am assuming (only my opinion) could be either accepted or rejected by Justice Code.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Is there any news article to say that DM did not want to be present for the sentencing.?
 
this paragraph is contradictory - if it's not a matter of degrees, then how would 'Smich no doubt have a score more elevated than most of us'?

Smich's behaviour is also 'shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving', especially the smiling photo in front of the incinerator

JMO

The PCL-R is scored out of 40 and there is a lot of real estate between a normal score in the low single digits and 30 where psychopathy is diagnosed. Smich no doubt would have a score more elevated than most of us, but it’s not a matter of both of these men being psychopathic with Millard perhaps being a bit more psychopathic. Psychopathy is by definition an extreme personality structure, and a rare one. If you are a psychopath your behaviour is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Dellen Millard is shocking, foreign, strange and unnerving. Mark Smich participated in horrible, ruthless crimes. There is a difference.
 
I will put some more thought into it than right now, but for starters, I know everyone says this house is huge, I don't think the house would be too big to keep her from finding out what they might be up to I just can't believe MS could have gotten away from her for long IF she stayed there that night, If I am to believe MS was involved than I just plain think she was there as well and was involved somewhat or she went out. I don't think it has been proven that SHE was there that WHOLE night- maybe a friend picked her up at some point...

I was the poster mentioning the two bras she had on in a few photos. I would think she would want to know the story on who's stuff that was and how they got it before wearing it. I suppose DM could have just said he stole a suitcase along somewhere. We didn't hear that part. So much is missing. I would so much desire to directly speak to them myself if they actually wanted to convince me of their innocence. But that is not how court works, I guess because of that I would vote slightly more on their guilty involvement just by association to evidence recovered.

Wasn't LB like 5'11 and average build, while from what we've read here MM is tiny. Would the clothes even fit?
 
Also, did anyone else pick up on the fact that February 12th (sentencing hearing) is LB's birthday?
 
Wasn't LB like 5'11 and average build, while from what we've read here MM is tiny. Would the clothes even fit?

Please, please don't take these baseless claims of looting seriously.

I spent way too much time discussing this last night and have sworn this will be my last post on the Meneses vilifiers, who are almost all the same people who have made every excuse possible for Smich every step of the way.

Here's Tony Leitch in his closing address on the subject of Millard, Smich and Meneses:

"Their celebration tells you everything you need to know about this case.

"Marlena Meneses was honest and clearly now understands what she was involved in and deeply regrets her failure to do something when she should have. She is correcting that wrong here, telling the truth about everything including Mark Smich's and Dellen Millard's celebration."

At the Laura Babcock trial, Smich's willingness to celebrate murder and incineration was corroborated. We've all now seen his celebratory photos and heard his celebratory raps.

And yet Smich's supporters (who don't like to be called his supporters) are still twisting themselves into knots trying to explain the celebration, the photos, the raps, and why he's not a psychopath when he very clearly is.
 
I think Justice Code knows the responsibility of making sure MS and DM are never let out of prison. Even though they currently have almost no chance at release, I think Code will make sure they have no chance.

I think MS might have a chance at concurrent if he were to at least to admit or show some remorse.
 
Please, please don't take these baseless claims of looting seriously.

I spent way too much time discussing this last night and have sworn this will be my last post on the Meneses vilifiers, who are almost all the same people who have made every excuse possible for Smich every step of the way.

Here's Tony Leitch in his closing address on the subject of Millard, Smich and Meneses:



Since the Laura Babcock trial, Smich's willingness to celebrate murder and incineration has been corroborated. We've all now seen his celebratory photos and heard his celebratory raps.

And yet Smich's supporters (who don't like to be called his supporters) are still twisting themselves into knots trying to explain the celebration, the photos, the raps, and why he's not a psychopath when he very clearly is.

What I don't get is why these people insist on MS being not as guilty. He was clearly involved. No one held a gun to his head. HE chose to participate in these crimes. He had no respect for anyone, his mother included, when he sold drugs out of her garage, hid guns and drugs at her house.. he is a bad person, no rehab will change him deep down. He will always be that punk who will turn back to crime if an opportunity presents itself. Jmo
 
I think Justice Code knows the responsibility of making sure MS and DM are never let out of prison. Even though they currently have almost no chance at release, I think Code will make sure they have no chance.

I think MS might have a chance at concurrent if he were to at least to admit or show some remorse.

Because he has no remorse. He will deny.. imagine the victim's family knowing some small detail like their loved one didn't suffer long, or at all, it was a quick death, etc. He won't give them that piece of mind. The final power trip.
 

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