Questions you'd like answers to...

[Cottonstar]

I have a contridiction that maybe someone can shed some light on.

Both PMPT and DOI say the Dec 17th, All Star Kids's Christmas Pageant was Jonbenet's last.

PBSworks (which admittedly is not a good source) says Jonbenet appeared in a beauty pageant on Dec 22nd as Southwest Plaza Mall. Oh hell, I just found video of her appearing with a tag of December 22nd 1996.

My question was 'Did she appear in the pageant on the 22nd?' Now my question is, 'Was Patsy trying to hide the number of pageants JB appeared in from John?' If there was a family event, Jonbenet was required to be with the family. That sounds more like a John edict.

Jonbenet didn't attend a national competition because Patsy said she didn't want JB exposed to Vegas. She put JB in a Vegas showgirl outfit with sequins and feathers--an outfit that in the adult world was supposed to show off the woman's legs--and she didn't want her daughter exposed to Vegas? #$@&%*! Patsy! Morality can't be switched on and off. You either follow a code or your don't (unless you're a politician). Cognitive dissonance strikes again.

JR was at the 22nd event.


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[otg]

Not sure if anyone ever figured out or confirmed where the video discussed earlier was taken. It was Don and Nedra Paugh's home in Roswell, GA. I won't post their address, but anyone can easily find it online and look it up in Google Maps. Here is their (Google Streetview) photo of it from a different angle than the one posted by Cottonstar here:

Also, the handbag over the shoulder of one of the people in the video isn't necessarily a certain indication of that person's gender. (Look again at the hips.)

 

[UKGuy]

I've only just discovered that Dr Beuf died last year.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dailycamera/obituary.aspx?pid=185396715

Tortoise,
A family friend according to JR, did he take JonBenet's secrets to his grave? Wonder if JR has managed to check over his estate in case he left compromising documents behind?

 

[LifeCitizen]

Interesting thought UKGuy.

I didn't realise Beuf had died either.

If he did have any secrets, they're gone now. Unless, on the off chance he told someone, who might want to make some $ by revealing what was said to them.

 

[Cottonstar]

Interesting thought UKGuy.

I didn't realise Beuf had died either.

If he did have any secrets, they're gone now. Unless, on the off chance he told someone, who might want to make some $ by revealing what was said to them.

Beuf was knee-deep.


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[BoldBear]

Does anyone know the room that they set-up the recorder in? I'm fried right now and just don't want to go digging for another little detail. I always thought it was in the 1st floor study, but Linda Arndt moved everyone into the back study. It doesn't make sense that they'd push everyone back there if that's where John was taking the calls. It had to be another room, but the reference I checked wasn't specific.

 

[BoldBear]

Okay. Got that question solved. I just don't see the basic stuff when I'm fried. I had to get my timeline nailed-down a little better.

I also got another one that clicked for me tonight. The police had photos of the basement during the kidnapping phase and then during the murder phase. Items got moved around. Basically someone moved stuff around in the basement after the police arrived. I never dreamed I'd understand a motive for that. I think the investigators practically tore the basement apart trying to understand why. All they really came up with was Burke's knife and that would go nowhere.

Almost done baring any complications. Then I go back and fix errors for the next pass.

Spinal Tap: It's such a fine line between stupid, and uh. clever.

Why is my side always stupid?

 

[Cottonstar]

Okay. Got that question solved. I just don't see the basic stuff when I'm fried. I had to get my timeline nailed-down a little better.

I also got another one that clicked for me tonight. The police had photos of the basement during the kidnapping phase and then during the murder phase. Items got moved around. Basically someone moved stuff around in the basement after the police arrived. I never dreamed I'd understand a motive for that. I think the investigators practically tore the basement apart trying to understand why. All they really came up with was Burke's knife and that would go nowhere.

Almost done baring any complications. Then I go back and fix errors for the next pass.

Spinal Tap: It's such a fine line between stupid, and uh. clever.

Why is my side always stupid?

BB-

Can you please clarify further what photos you are referring too?

The police did not rummage through the basement until later in the evening after they obtained a search warrant.

Thank you.
CS



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[BoldBear]

BB-

Can you please clarify further what photos you are referring too?

The police did not rummage through the basement until later in the evening after they obtained a search warrant.

Thank you.
CS

That's not necessary. The police went through the house during the kidnapping stage of the crime taking photos. Not all of the photos have been release or leaked to the public. The way we know about the photos is because they are talked about in the Ramsey's transcripts. The photos in the basement only indicate that items have been moved, but we've never had access to those photos. We only know that items were moved because the transcripts says they were moved when the two photos were compared side by side.

 

[Tadpole12]

Does anyone know the room that they set-up the recorder in? I'm fried right now and just don't want to go digging for another little detail. I always thought it was in the 1st floor study, but Linda Arndt moved everyone into the back study. It doesn't make sense that they'd push everyone back there if that's where John was taking the calls. It had to be another room, but the reference I checked wasn't specific.

BB, maybe it's depicted in the
PMPT movie?

 

[BoldBear]

BB, maybe it's depicted in the
PMPT movie?

Thanks,

It's fairly well documented in Steve Thomas' book. I was just to fried at the time to hit the details. The PMPT movie was also fairly good. I find it funny when scenes from the movie set get mistaken for crime scene photos.

For some reason, I thought John and Detective Arndt went into JAR's room when she briefed him on what to do for the ransom call. I realized that was a mistake. John sat in a chair when they talked. The chairs in JAR's room had too much crap in them for that. They went into the den on the 1st floor. John paced the den and the dining room when he was waiting for the call.

 

[Cottonstar]

That's not necessary. The police went through the house during the kidnapping stage of the crime taking photos. Not all of the photos have been release or leaked to the public. The way we know about the photos is because they are talked about in the Ramsey's transcripts. The photos in the basement only indicate that items have been moved, but we've never had access to those photos. We only know that items were moved because the transcripts says they were moved when the two photos were compared side by side.

I’ve seen photos or video where stuff is moved around.


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[BoldBear]

I’ve seen photos or video where stuff is moved around.


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There are also photos where the golf bags are by the door of the windowless room. I suspect that the photos caused the police to believe there was something hidden in the basement. There was nothing to be found there.

 

[IridescentDreams]

Hey All! I'm a brand spankin' newbie here. I've spent the last few weeks slowly traipsing through some of the official stuff pertaining to John and Patsy;police interviews, depos etc. I'm far from going through all we have publicly available *sigh*

My first question is not really relative to the case in a direct sense but can someone please help me with the commonly used acronyms in here?

My next few are pretty much rhetorical to other members as we all know the Ramsey's are crazy spin artists. But I'd sure love to hear the tap dance John would come up with for these.

according to their interviews, the first with BPD in march/April 97 I believe, and I'm just flying by the wing here so can't nail down specifics, but it has both john and patsy in direct conflict of who "went to bed" first; john, or patsy? I think this is something they both slipped up on. The morning of the 26th, again there's contradiction of who "got up" first. I'll go by Patsy's interview in where she awoke around 5:30 am then spent 20-30 minutes getting dressed and doing her make up, another 10-20 minutes p***-farting around in JAR room packing for the big boat trip, and yet another 5-10 minutes fussing with JBR's shirt that had some marks on it. From the get go, she's already put herself well behind the timeline to make that 911 call at 5:52 am. Of course, they didn't actually go to bed but who's lying John, you, patsy or both..

John says he took some melatonin for a good nights sleep. Now, as someone who is a severe insomniac and takes melatonin myself, as well as one of my children, melatonin simply does not work that way, in other words, it isn't a sleeping tablet but a naturally occurring chemical in the body that helps that drowsy feeling. It neither makes you fall asleep, nor keeps you asleep.

As for dear dear young Burke, I highly suspect ASD or some form of personality disorder. My eldest has ASD, ADHD, ODD, GAD, which has given me some incredible insight as to exactly what a child that age could be capable of. At 7 years of age a 21 kilo, 120 cm he could throw me; 48 kilo and 167 cm, clean across the room in the middle of his outbursts. Not to mention the time he broke a solid wooden door off its hinges. He brandished a knife holding it to my throat when I was feeding his newborn sibling, why, because he was jealous of my attention being on said sibling. I think it's perfectly plausible that BR could do to poor JBR what was done.

So far I have read Death of innocence, that Werner Spitz book and Steve Thomas's book. I really struggled to get through DOI, even that was full of contradictions published for the world to see. One sentence they'd deny something and fess up to it in the very next sentence. I don't put a great deal of stock into Spitz's book either, he really just came across as arrogant and better than thou, it seemed to me he wanted to insert himself into the case and offer his not to be disputed opinion because he's far superior than anyone who could offer insight. I don't completely discount it, though. I don't have much of an opinion either way on Thomas's book, it was interesting and frustrating. I think it shines a good light on the corruption of politics in the case and highlights the old adage, it's not what you know but who you know. I'm yet to read Kolar's book.

I don't have any solid theory yet, I'm far too early into the evidence to have that determined but someone in that house did it. I've questioned as to why it was the Stines who became their lifeline and not the whites or the fernies? Are the stines implacted somehow, even if by simply knowing what happened? Are the Whites implacted somehow and that's why they were suddenly thrown under the bus? Maybe implicated is the wrong word, but more do these people know something the Ramsey's don't want out?

Do we know if Burke was right or left handed? The vaginal trauma indicated digital penetration possibly by a right hand, but if JBR were to be on her stomach in instances of digital penetration; whether it be sexually or physically punishment motivated, could it be that she was penetrated with a left hand on her stomach, instead of a right hand on her back?

Anither thing that stood stood out to me is Patsy, by both hers and Johns own admission has quite an extensive history of pharmaceutical usage. Which is to be understood given her cancer however these things aren't easy to kick and there is certainly long term effects.

As they would have us believe, they are a perfect family with no conflict, ever. Which I call BS on. Neither seem to know anything about the other, in way of routine, patsy's panic attacks, john's affair, JBR's bedwetting etc etc. and you don't talk to your other child about the absolutely horrific death of his sister? What child doesn't have questions for these sorts of things?

Another thing I'd like to touch on is patsy herself claims she's no house keeper, which is obvious, but then wants to point out how unusual it is for the dust ruffle on JAR's bed to be out like that? Especially when it could have been, let's say caught on her own foot whilst she was packing, and given the state of the rest of the house?

Do we know if the abrasions on JBR were inflicted pre or post mortem? How many photos have been dug up of JBR with suspicious bruises/scratches? I recall a few pageant ones where it shows visible bruising, perhaps, near her elbow.

Do do we have access to Fleet and Priscilla's interviews? What about Burke's? I've been flitting about ACandyRose but I'm finding it really hard to navigate. Do we know exactly how many crime scene photos and offical documents are available to us?

Sorry, this is completely all over the place, I'm just writing as I'm thinking, going off on tangents and trying to decide my next direction of where to look further.

editied to add: what about BR's Hi-Tek shoes, is it possible the cord is actually shoe laces?

 

[IridescentDreams]

To add on to my post that certainly rivals the ransom note, what do we know about LA's relationship with the R's? She flat out said the murderer was in the house that morning, pointing fingers at John and the Ram's flip around in their book stating that they had sympathy for her because she was obviously the scapegoat for the BPD/DA mess after her publicly naming one of them as a murderer. ST mentions in his book LA became close with the R's, apparently she even went to see patsy as she was dying. Any thoughts?

 

[BoldBear]

Hey All! I'm a brand spankin' newbie here. I've spent the last few weeks slowly traipsing through some of the official stuff pertaining to John and Patsy;police interviews, depos etc. I'm far from going through all we have publicly available *sigh*

Welcome to WS. We all have our own slant on this case so you'll get many different opinions. The latest information came from James Kolar, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped Jonbenet? It's available on Amazon and Kindle. Kolar went to work for the Boulder police department after the case had been botched. Steve Thomas' book is a great reference and touches on many blunders of the case.

One of the best web references we have is index.htm. It is one of the most extensive references online; although, you'll have to navigate down so here's the link the the index: s-Flight755-15thStreet.htm. I've got to warn you, this is a very deep rabbit hole. It contains the autopsy reports, photos and the transcripts from John and Patsy's interviews.

I won't answer all your questions and I hope others will chime in.

My first question is not really relative to the case in a direct sense but can someone please help me with the commonly used acronyms in here?

My next few are pretty much rhetorical to other members as we all know the Ramsey's are crazy spin artists. But I'd sure love to hear the tap dance John would come up with for these.

according to their interviews, the first with BPD in march/April 97 I believe, and I'm just flying by the wing here so can't nail down specifics, but it has both john and patsy in direct conflict of who "went to bed" first; john, or patsy? I think this is something they both slipped up on. The morning of the 26th, again there's contradiction of who "got up" first. I'll go by Patsy's interview in where she awoke around 5:30 am then spent 20-30 minutes getting dressed and doing her make up, another 10-20 minutes p***-farting around in JAR room packing for the big boat trip, and yet another 5-10 minutes fussing with JBR's shirt that had some marks on it. From the get go, she's already put herself well behind the timeline to make that 911 call at 5:52 am. Of course, they didn't actually go to bed but who's lying John, you, patsy or both.

I'm not on point about who went to bed first. I think John said Patsy did, but I don't trust the source. So there's a problem. You're right about the timeline when they woke-up. They said John woke-up first and was already in his bathroom when Patsy woke up. Their timeline is messed up and not believable.

John says he took some melatonin for a good nights sleep. Now, as someone who is a severe insomniac and takes melatonin myself, as well as one of my children, melatonin simply does not work that way, in other words, it isn't a sleeping tablet but a naturally occurring chemical in the body that helps that drowsy feeling. It neither makes you fall asleep, nor keeps you asleep.

This is one that I don't think an insomniac will ever understand. Someone who doesn't have problems sleeping can take 25 mg of benadryl or one melatonin tablet to sleep. I'll never understand that. It would never work for me.

As for dear dear young Burke, I highly suspect ASD or some form of personality disorder. My eldest has ASD, ADHD, ODD, GAD, which has given me some incredible insight as to exactly what a child that age could be capable of. At 7 years of age a 21 kilo, 120 cm he could throw me; 48 kilo and 167 cm, clean across the room in the middle of his outbursts. Not to mention the time he broke a solid wooden door off its hinges. He brandished a knife holding it to my throat when I was feeding his newborn sibling, why, because he was jealous of my attention being on said sibling. I think it's perfectly plausible that BR could do to poor JBR what was done.

So far I have read Death of innocence, that Werner Spitz book and Steve Thomas's book. I really struggled to get through DOI, even that was full of contradictions published for the world to see. One sentence they'd deny something and fess up to it in the very next sentence. I don't put a great deal of stock into Spitz's book either, he really just came across as arrogant and better than thou, it seemed to me he wanted to insert himself into the case and offer his not to be disputed opinion because he's far superior than anyone who could offer insight. I don't completely discount it, though. I don't have much of an opinion either way on Thomas's book, it was interesting and frustrating. I think it shines a good light on the corruption of politics in the case and highlights the old adage, it's not what you know but who you know. I'm yet to read Kolar's book.

DOI is partly a work of fiction. There's no reliable timeline in it either (if you've ever gone into the detail to get a timeline). It's partly a fairytale about what John and Patsy wanted the wrold to think about them.

I don't have any solid theory yet, I'm far too early into the evidence to have that determined but someone in that house did it. I've questioned as to why it was the Stines who became their lifeline and not the whites or the fernies? Are the stines implacted somehow, even if by simply knowing what happened? Are the Whites implacted somehow and that's why they were suddenly thrown under the bus? Maybe implicated is the wrong word, but more do these people know something the Ramsey's don't want out?

Do we know if Burke was right or left handed? The vaginal trauma indicated digital penetration possibly by a right hand, but if JBR were to be on her stomach in instances of digital penetration; whether it be sexually or physically punishment motivated, could it be that she was penetrated with a left hand on her stomach, instead of a right hand on her back?

Anither thing that stood stood out to me is Patsy, by both hers and Johns own admission has quite an extensive history of pharmaceutical usage. Which is to be understood given her cancer however these things aren't easy to kick and there is certainly long term effects.

Patsy went through radical chemo treatments. Numbness in her hands and feet. Chemo can also create a fuzzy memory often referred to a chemo brain. Prescription drugs were small compared to what she survived.

I'm not aware of any medications John was taking; although, I wouldn't be surprised. Beth's death really tore him up. He painted a quick recovery in DOI knowing that Beth was with God and so that gave him hope. If you would believe DOI, he would have recovered from losing a child in less than 2 weeks. Nope. Her death caused him to question his faith in God. No parent recovers from their child's death. John and Patsy couldn't hide that.

As they would have us believe, they are a perfect family with no conflict, ever. Which I call BS on. Neither seem to know anything about the other, in way of routine, patsy's panic attacks, john's affair, JBR's bedwetting etc etc. and you don't talk to your other child about the absolutely horrific death of his sister? What child doesn't have questions for these sorts of things?

This is the easiest questions you could ever ask. Patsy's side of the family was based on a powerful matriarchy. The roots of the family were based on Southern society. No matter what happens in the home, the neighbors (and the outside world) should never know about it. Never. Nothing should ever bring shame on the family and social standing is more important than life itself.

As for the transcripts, I believe that John and Patsy careful divvied the responsibilities for household items. If something was more Patsy's responsibility, John would simply say he didn't know anything about it and you'd have to ask Patsy. If something was John's responsibility Patsy would say it was John's responsibility. This is merely legal advice about what they should and shouldn't answer. It keeps them from having conflicting answers.

Another thing I'd like to touch on is patsy herself claims she's no house keeper, which is obvious, but then wants to point out how unusual it is for the dust ruffle on JAR's bed to be out like that? Especially when it could have been, let's say caught on her own foot whilst she was packing, and given the state of the rest of the house?

She was no housekeeper, but she told the housekeeper what to do. This is Lou Smit and really messed-up logic. Lou focused on that bed for his kidnapper under the bed theory. When looking for a missing child, I don't know anyone who wouldn't think to look under the bed. If you're looking at JAR's room, another question is why video tapes that the kids never watched were on the floor. Well, it didn't fit his theory so he didn't focus on the question.

Do we know if the abrasions on JBR were inflicted pre or post mortem? How many photos have been dug up of JBR with suspicious bruises/scratches? I recall a few pageant ones where it shows visible bruising, perhaps, near her elbow.

Well, bruising doesn't happen after death. But beyond that, I have not expertise.

Do do we have access to Fleet and Priscilla's interviews? What about Burke's? I've been flitting about ACandyRose but I'm finding it really hard to navigate. Do we know exactly how many crime scene photos and offical documents are available to us?

Sorry, this is completely all over the place, I'm just writing as I'm thinking, going off on tangents and trying to decide my next direction of where to look further.

editied to add: what about BR's Hi-Tek shoes, is it possible the cord is actually shoe laces?

Everyone here if fairly certain Burke had a pair of Hi-Tek boots. Unfortunately the boots that created the print were never found so the whole boot issues is speculation. It could have come from Burke, a police officer, a friend, someone working for the Ramseys or an intruder.

Shoe laces could have been traced back to the manufacturer.

 

[UKGuy]

Hey All! I'm a brand spankin' newbie here. I've spent the last few weeks slowly traipsing through some of the official stuff pertaining to John and Patsy;police interviews, depos etc. I'm far from going through all we have publicly available *sigh*

My first question is not really relative to the case in a direct sense but can someone please help me with the commonly used acronyms in here?

My next few are pretty much rhetorical to other members as we all know the Ramsey's are crazy spin artists. But I'd sure love to hear the tap dance John would come up with for these.

according to their interviews, the first with BPD in march/April 97 I believe, and I'm just flying by the wing here so can't nail down specifics, but it has both john and patsy in direct conflict of who "went to bed" first; john, or patsy? I think this is something they both slipped up on. The morning of the 26th, again there's contradiction of who "got up" first. I'll go by Patsy's interview in where she awoke around 5:30 am then spent 20-30 minutes getting dressed and doing her make up, another 10-20 minutes p***-farting around in JAR room packing for the big boat trip, and yet another 5-10 minutes fussing with JBR's shirt that had some marks on it. From the get go, she's already put herself well behind the timeline to make that 911 call at 5:52 am. Of course, they didn't actually go to bed but who's lying John, you, patsy or both..

John says he took some melatonin for a good nights sleep. Now, as someone who is a severe insomniac and takes melatonin myself, as well as one of my children, melatonin simply does not work that way, in other words, it isn't a sleeping tablet but a naturally occurring chemical in the body that helps that drowsy feeling. It neither makes you fall asleep, nor keeps you asleep.

As for dear dear young Burke, I highly suspect ASD or some form of personality disorder. My eldest has ASD, ADHD, ODD, GAD, which has given me some incredible insight as to exactly what a child that age could be capable of. At 7 years of age a 21 kilo, 120 cm he could throw me; 48 kilo and 167 cm, clean across the room in the middle of his outbursts. Not to mention the time he broke a solid wooden door off its hinges. He brandished a knife holding it to my throat when I was feeding his newborn sibling, why, because he was jealous of my attention being on said sibling. I think it's perfectly plausible that BR could do to poor JBR what was done.

So far I have read Death of innocence, that Werner Spitz book and Steve Thomas's book. I really struggled to get through DOI, even that was full of contradictions published for the world to see. One sentence they'd deny something and fess up to it in the very next sentence. I don't put a great deal of stock into Spitz's book either, he really just came across as arrogant and better than thou, it seemed to me he wanted to insert himself into the case and offer his not to be disputed opinion because he's far superior than anyone who could offer insight. I don't completely discount it, though. I don't have much of an opinion either way on Thomas's book, it was interesting and frustrating. I think it shines a good light on the corruption of politics in the case and highlights the old adage, it's not what you know but who you know. I'm yet to read Kolar's book.

I don't have any solid theory yet, I'm far too early into the evidence to have that determined but someone in that house did it. I've questioned as to why it was the Stines who became their lifeline and not the whites or the fernies? Are the stines implacted somehow, even if by simply knowing what happened? Are the Whites implacted somehow and that's why they were suddenly thrown under the bus? Maybe implicated is the wrong word, but more do these people know something the Ramsey's don't want out?

Do we know if Burke was right or left handed? The vaginal trauma indicated digital penetration possibly by a right hand, but if JBR were to be on her stomach in instances of digital penetration; whether it be sexually or physically punishment motivated, could it be that she was penetrated with a left hand on her stomach, instead of a right hand on her back?

Anither thing that stood stood out to me is Patsy, by both hers and Johns own admission has quite an extensive history of pharmaceutical usage. Which is to be understood given her cancer however these things aren't easy to kick and there is certainly long term effects.

As they would have us believe, they are a perfect family with no conflict, ever. Which I call BS on. Neither seem to know anything about the other, in way of routine, patsy's panic attacks, john's affair, JBR's bedwetting etc etc. and you don't talk to your other child about the absolutely horrific death of his sister? What child doesn't have questions for these sorts of things?

Another thing I'd like to touch on is patsy herself claims she's no house keeper, which is obvious, but then wants to point out how unusual it is for the dust ruffle on JAR's bed to be out like that? Especially when it could have been, let's say caught on her own foot whilst she was packing, and given the state of the rest of the house?

Do we know if the abrasions on JBR were inflicted pre or post mortem? How many photos have been dug up of JBR with suspicious bruises/scratches? I recall a few pageant ones where it shows visible bruising, perhaps, near her elbow.

Do do we have access to Fleet and Priscilla's interviews? What about Burke's? I've been flitting about ACandyRose but I'm finding it really hard to navigate. Do we know exactly how many crime scene photos and offical documents are available to us?

Sorry, this is completely all over the place, I'm just writing as I'm thinking, going off on tangents and trying to decide my next direction of where to look further.

editied to add: what about BR's Hi-Tek shoes, is it possible the cord is actually shoe laces?

IridescentDreams,
Hey, there, welcome to websleuths.

My first question is not really relative to the case in a direct sense but can someone please help me with the commonly used acronyms in here?

JDI = John Did It

BDI = Burke Did It

PDI = Patsy Didi It

RDI = Ramsey Did It

IDI = Intruder Did It

according to their interviews, the first with BPD in march/April 97 I believe, and I'm just flying by the wing here so can't nail down specifics, but it has both john and patsy in direct conflict of who "went to bed" first; john, or patsy? I think this is something they both slipped up on. The morning of the 26th, again there's contradiction of who "got up" first. I'll go by Patsy's interview in where she awoke around 5:30 am then spent 20-30 minutes getting dressed and doing her make up, another 10-20 minutes p***-farting around in JAR room packing for the big boat trip, and yet another 5-10 minutes fussing with JBR's shirt that had some marks on it. From the get go, she's already put herself well behind the timeline to make that 911 call at 5:52 am. Of course, they didn't actually go to bed but who's lying John, you, patsy or both..

John went to bed, Patsy was up preparing bags for the following day's vacation flight. Both John and Patsy have inconsistent versions of events, e.g. John read to JonBenet, later revised to John helped put JonBenet to bed, then left the rest to Patsy. When Patsy was undressing JonBenet to put the longjohns on her she failed to notice the size-12's or even if she had any underwear on at
all!

So far I have read Death of innocence, that Werner Spitz book and Steve Thomas's book

All these books might be classified by the Donald as Fake News. Werner Spitz has a mouth to feed, Steve Thomas a reputation to defend, and the Ramsey's well it could be they wish to avoid the Chair or Lethal Injection!

I'm yet to read Kolar's book.

Good book, it dispels many myths and offers an alternative Who Did It to what went before.

I don't have any solid theory yet, I'm far too early into the evidence to have that determined but someone in that house did it. I've questioned as to why it was the Stines who became their lifeline and not the whites or the fernies? Are the stines implacted somehow, even if by simply knowing what happened?

The Stines definitely know stuff we do not. Doug Stine and Burke Ramsey have been close friends since childhood, and remain so. Burke told Doug Stine plenty inside information, Susan Stine has confirmed this.

Are the Whites implacted somehow and that's why they were suddenly thrown under the bus? Maybe implicated is the wrong word, but more do these people know something the Ramsey's don't want out?

The White's could not be bought off. They represent a family to point a finger at, simply to muddy the waters.

could it be that she was penetrated with a left hand on her stomach, instead of a right hand on her back?

Yes, but is it Genital Trauma or Sexual Assault?

Anither thing that stood stood out to me is Patsy, by both hers and Johns own admission has quite an extensive history of pharmaceutical usage. Which is to be understood given her cancer however these things aren't easy to kick and there is certainly long term effects.

Many think Patsy was under the influence of both drugs and alcohol on the night of JonBenet's death.

As they would have us believe, they are a perfect family with no conflict, ever. Which I call BS on. Neither seem to know anything about the other, in way of routine, patsy's panic attacks, john's affair, JBR's bedwetting etc etc. and you don't talk to your other child about the absolutely horrific death of his sister? What child doesn't have questions for these sorts of things?

They were a dysfunctional family. John was always too busy working, and Patsy continued to be involved in the America Pageant organization, Patsy stayed active in the organization and often served as a judge and worked on their fundraising campaigns. Patsy liked purchasing antiques, art objects and furniture for her regularly redecorated house. As Nedra quipped once John made the money and Patsy spent it, bigtime ! John's money probably compensated for Patsy's domestic indifference, she could buy support whenever, e.g. Linda Hoffman Pugh.

Patsy is on record describing JonBenet as part of her new project, add in Patsy's obsession with pageants, its obvious Patsy thought JonBenet could go further than herself all it would take is training, promotion and money.

Do we know if the abrasions on JBR were inflicted pre or post mortem? How many photos have been dug up of JBR with suspicious bruises/scratches? I recall a few pageant ones where it shows visible bruising, perhaps, near her elbow.

They are likely antemortem, some could perimortem, due to JonBenet being dragged?

editied to add: what about BR's Hi-Tek shoes, is it possible the cord is actually shoe laces?

Nope, the ligature fibers were matched to nylon cord sold in a local store.

Most people accept that there was no intruder, so is the wine-cellar a staged crime-scene, if so, for which Ramsey's benefit is it staged for?

That is, did the person staging it stage it to write themselves out of the script or another family member?

ST mentions in his book LA became close with the R's, apparently she even went to see patsy as she was dying. Any thoughts?

LA was sucked into the politics of the case and was used as a scapegoat. LA quite possibly thought the case was JDI and sympathised with Patsy as a victim, on different levels?

.

 

[IridescentDreams]

Thank you, BoldBear. How do you do the "originally posted by..." quote thingo?

ACandyRose is definitely a rabbit hole. I started on the autopsy photos originally and that paved my way to finding ACandyRose and here from there.

I dont believe the Ramsey's lie 100% of the time throughout the course of this investigation, or at least what we are able to view. A lot of what they say stands out to me for one reason or another; be it as actual fact, fiction or just plain obscurity.

In regards to the melatonin, it is my understanding that for someone who doesn't have sleep problems, it doesn't have an effect. I could be wrong on that but that's what I've heard from a vary of sources including two of my own personal doctors and my children's paediatrician, amongst others.

No, I'm nowhere near creating my own timeline. I'm very much inclined to agree it's a work of fiction and their own view of themselves thrust into the world, I just find it curious they didn't see the umpteen million contradictions they put in there. I'll probably borrow it again and do my own highlights, or things that instantly gave me Forrest Whittaker eye.

Theres no doubt she suffered immeasurably, but that doesn't counteract or subtract from the long term effects of medication on the body and mind. I'm looking at both these people as other human beings, trying to understand their minds, personalities and circumstances whilst applying what I know from research and experience. One thing I will say is I wholeheartedly believe these two parents grieved to the full extent, and never stopped; how could they? I will disagree that John made it out like his grief over Beth was over and done with quickly. I thought it was quite apparent in DOI, he stated that it completely crushed him and he completely lost his faith.

I understand appearance and perception is everything to Patsy. But to me, there was nothing, even in their book, that gave me the impression of a deep and intimate connection. They didn't seem to communicate about the important things. I'll use John's affair and Patsy's mental health for sake of argument, and it could very well be my own projections and influences but neither having any idea about the other doesn't sit with me as a solid and connected relationship. It seems to me they just kind of did their own things and let the other one be.

JAR's room, I'm not that deep yet. It was but another Ramsey comment that struck me as odd, as to say there is perfectly reasonable explanations why the dust ruffle was out of place. I suppose I'm splitting hairs but my point to that is she does no housework, the house is chaos and a dust ruffle not falling perfectly is what she picks as out of place.

I havent been able to get to get a definitive read on the abrasions. The one on her face near her ear, does anyone have any ideas as to what that is? I've stared at it for hours upon hours and can't work it out. The two "stun gun" marks, which by the way I don't believe for a second. I don't mean in the hours after death but within seconds to minutes. If, say, she let go of her bladder upon death and someone poked her with something after realising the urine, would they show up like that or would they look different? I'm assuming along with most of everything else it's still all speculation as to what those marks are, not necessarily what caused it per se; stun gun, train tracks, cigar, fingers, but are they bruises, scratches, friction burn?

 

[IridescentDreams]

Thanks UKGuy!

I am familiar with those ones, but there's some longer ones I'm unsure of IIRC, BBM I think? I'm sure there's a few more but there what I recall off the top of my head that I've seen pop up and just go "huh?" :thinking:

I think one thing everyone could agree on is these two couldn't lie straight in bed. I'm sure I read in one of the transcripts that PR went to bed first whilst JR brushed his teeth, then read but she was already asleep.

Im not the sort to put all my chickens in one basket and take anything at more than face value. I cherry pick things out of each that I know have no validity, being now that is some almost 20 years now after some of these were written. However, I have found some valid information in all. Good point on what the Ram's were avoiding but I suspect they were far too connected for that ever to be a possibility, just look at the outcome of the GJ.

My guess is the Stines know exactly what happened, but I suspect that had to happen pretty much immediately, the Rams went straight from the hell hole to the Stines. I thought they were more involved with the Whites, originally so why didn't they go there? Which also loops into what do the Whites know that we don't, I know they weren't bought off but they themselves said they never spoke out beyond what they did re a special prosecutor, release of files etc in case they were ever called into trial as witnesses. Something about FW saying "I'll have to tell them what I know John" or the likes after the whole lawyer up, CNN debarcle. Or is that more Ramsey slight of hand?

I don't really have much of a standpoint yet on whether it was genital trauma or sexual abuse. I think at this point in time I'm leaning towards abuse by JR, based on the transcripts. As soon as sexual assault was mentioned, JR was highly offended and ranting about the detectives disgracing his relationship with JBR and Patsy didn't seem to question that she'd been sexually assaulted and jumped to JR's defence without it ever being mentioned to either of them about him possibly being involved. Neither of them were concerned with the fact there was evidence she did have vaginal injuries but WERE concerned with quickly distancing JR from them. However, I am pretty early into my investigations so that could very well change.

Its plausible. I'll have to dig through the transcripts and books again, but I'm sure there's a record of Patsy being on medication at that time. And not just a paracetamol here or there. Me thinks I have to start up my own digital record to pull from. It's not far fetched to believe she was drinking either, it was Christmas after all, that also brings into play interactions between alcohol and medication. I'll have to double check but if she was on an antidepressant then, it's quite easy to have other or increased side effects.

Thats true. I am curious about what level of a role LHP played as a house keeper. Given PR's solid southern roots, what happens behind closed doors stays as such, like BoldBear said, would she really want someone digging around deep so often? No discredit to LHP's work as it may not have been set out for her, but surely she couldn't have done too much around there given all the clutter and mess?

The particular marks im focussing on at the moment are the triangle type bruise on the neck, the one on her face near the ear and the ones that the Rams have us believe are stun gun marks. The one near the ear is of particular interest to me in "what the hell is that" and the possible train tracks, could that have been done in the very seconds after her passing?

Well there goes my theory on the cord. Personally, I think it was to stage away from a certain person. Who, I'm not sure, because they all have reasons and circumstances to be written out of the picture. Of course, that all depends on things we will likely never know, or until the end of my time at the least.

Have you read LA's depo? Ive only just started it but she's already said she knows JDI and he was sexually abusing JBR. She was still in the police force when she was reported as getting close to PR, apparently Patsy even thanked her and sent her flowers? It was in ST's book. It'll be interesting to see if she comes out later in life and says anything.

I'd love to see the Whites do a book or something, including little Fleet and Daphne. I'd take their version of events prior and post to that of the Ramsey's. It'd be interesting on what light they'd shed in regards to personalities, family dynamics etc.

 

[Tortoise]

IIRC if I remember correctly
BBM bolded by me
BIB bit in bold
IMO in my opinion
MOO my opinion only
JMO just my opinion
TIA thanks in advance

see post #2762 for link to websleuths lingo